The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[CosherB]

Captain constantly selectively posts to make a point yet fails to address any previous points he has made to which a valid reply was made. So you blow his 'facts' out of the water,

1V, you couldn't blow the froth off a pint of beer with your posts!

We'd probably take him a lot more seriously if he took onboard some valid criticism of his 'facts' or opinions when he is factually incorrect, as the problem is he just comes over as a one agenda guy with blinkers on by continually carrying on in this vein, and eventually can only draw the conclusion he is just a stirrer.

You mean if I simply agreed with the rot you post instead of showing it up for the tosh that it is? Just because you don't like hearing the truth doesn't stop it being the truth!

 

[GB]

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

 

[1V53]

1V, you couldn't blow the froth off a pint of beer with your posts!



You mean if I simply agreed with the rot you post instead of showing it up for the tosh that it is? Just because you don't like hearing the truth doesn't stop it being the truth!

I've already quoted two examples of complete rubbish you posted, but yeah everyone else speaks tosh! Yeah righto! I think most of us have got you sussed now. Is there an 'ignore' facility on here?

 

[mumrar]

Don't think there's an ignore facility on here, but most rational people come with a 'don't rise to the bait' feature pre-installed in their heads.

 

[Flamingo]

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

He said in an earlier post he is retired IT. Quite ironic that he is telling us all how do do our jobs and that we are overpaid for them anyway, given the wages that IT staff command for sitting typing into a keyboard all day, with the only rish being RSI if they don't stand up every two hours, and (as we can tell) minimal use for interpersonal skills or staff motivation.

 

[1V53]

Don't think there's an ignore facility on here, but most rational people come with a 'don't rise to the bait' feature pre-installed in their heads.

Fair point. The experience of an irrational, selective quoting, trolling poster is quite new to me! I have always had the view that everyone has their opinion but we can all listen and learn from each other, but I've never come across someone who is completely antagonistic for the sake of being antagonistic and who ignores EVERYONE'S rational and factual corrections to their factual errors before!! I guess it's best we just adopt the 'ignore him and he will go and play elsewhere' method

Anyway.... Aslef is meeting management on Thursday. As things stand the next strike date is Sunday (and every Sunday ongoing). I had heard of another day date next week also, but it isn't on the Aslef site yet so we shall see.

 

[Flamingo]

That means (since you appear to need it spelling out) it is no concern of mine if you and your management have a disagreement. So don't try to make it my problem by withdrawing a train service I might want to use!

Firstly, it's not me and my management. I was at work yesterday, and I took a train from South Wales to London and back. If you wanted to use it, once you purchased a valid ticket you were welcome to use it.

I don't suppose you've the balls to apologise for being bloody rude when you're totally in the wrong, but will just bluff it out as usual. :roll:

I do apologise, when I feel it is warranted, or I have been wrong. However, a certain type of individual confuses rudeness with an answer they don't like or inconvenient facts. You are obviously one of these people.

Speaking of rudeness (pun intended), lets look at some of the terms you have used to describe other posters and railstaff: "negative and closed", "Ignorant", "Greedy", "Posting a load of tosh", (if anybody wants to search others, just go back through the thread - I love the "view previous posts" option.)

As regards you not being worker and union bashing in this (and other) threads:

It seems the more you pay people, the greedier they get. Train drivers these days are on dream wages compared to BR days, yet they strike for more!

Just don't whinge when the golden goose is killed through train crew (drivers in particualr for they are well overpaid for the job) trying to squeeze too many eggs out of it.

£50k for driving a train? Anyone of moderate intelligence and ability, given the training, could do that job - it's not worth £50k". And of course it's not; it's a temporary false market caused by a shortage of drivers and in time, unions notwithstanding, drivers will enjoy a more realistic wage.

Not much mention of management responsibility in those posts, is there? (not to mention factual errors - I hope you took more care writing code!)

Now, are you going to ignore this post as well?

What I said in my previous post about denial and trolling still stands (and about you being a spotter).

 

[1V53]

I've learnt my lesson, you should learn it too: don't feed the troll.

 

[CosherB]

I am multi-talented.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And you don't think drivers have earned every penny through hard work? Oh no, I forgot. As it's not high-level systems design then it can't be hard work!

Do you actually know about what it's really like driving a train? Do you know about the amount you need to know, the technical skill, the ability to judge distances exactly, knowing many routes inside out so you can pinpoint each signal and station exactly, even at night or in fog?

Probably not, because in Systems design you'd be in a nice warm office, coffee on tap...

 

[313103]

I am multi-talented.

There are lots of things i could call you, but multi-talented is most certainly not one of the them.

 

[Flamingo]

I am multi-talented.

The ability to chew gum and walk simultaneously does not class as multi-talented, as has been pointed out in the past.

I'm sorry to see that you are ignoring posts that point out flaws, i.e. you are still in denial. Anna Freud describes it as the mechanism of an immature mind, as it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Whilst I think that some of the Freudian theories are discredited by this stage, in this case she may have a point.

 

[CosherB]

The ability to chew gum and walk simultaneously does not class as multi-talented, as has been pointed out in the past.

I agree. But what has that got to do with the price of fish?

I'm sorry to see that you are ignoring posts that point out flaws,

Such as?

i.e. you are still in denial. Anna Freud describes it as the mechanism of an immature mind, as it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Whilst I think that some of the Freudian theories are discredited by this stage, in this case she may have a point.

Ooooh! Bit of a psycho analyst in our spare time are we, Flamingo! You clever little chap you!

 

[O L Leigh]

Sorry, but did we ever get to the bottom of the ATW dispute or have we all been too busy arguing over who said what and trading blows?

I'm seriously bored now.

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

Yes we did get to the bottom of it I think but the usual boring 'you are paid more than you are worth' brigade wheeled themselves out and the thread lost its way.

If anyone has any polite questions that aren't centred around salary bashing I will do my best to answer them.

 

[313103]

Sorry, but did we ever get to the bottom of the ATW dispute or have we all been too busy arguing over who said what and trading blows?

I'm seriously bored now.

O L Leigh

No we didn't, but what we did find was that captain speaking doesnt like it when posed with difficult questions, but likes to dish his own ones out in a self righteous manner. As i said its way or the highway.

 

[1V53]

No we didn't, but what we did find was that captain speaking doesnt like it when posed with difficult questions, but likes to dish his own ones out in a self righteous manner. As i said its way or the highway.

Didn't we? I thought we had covered it very well?

By constantly referring to him you are giving him the attention he craves. I kept replying because I believed he was struggling to grasp simple concepts. Now I have realised he is simply looking to argue for the sake of it. Just ignore him, he will soon get bored. Don't indulge him.

 

[merlodlliw]

Didn't we? I thought we had covered it very well?

By constantly referring to him you are giving him the attention he craves. I kept replying because I believed he was struggling to grasp simple concepts. Now I have realised he is simply looking to argue for the sake of it. Just ignore him, he will soon get bored. Don't indulge him.

Chaps, 22 pages covering everything from "The Leppard at the ATW HQ Circus who rides a milk float" to the Aslef suit seen outside Queen St Station with his polished ear ring having a laugh with mates as passengers were sent away(TV).

Both should have known better & shown more compassion for the person of paramount importance, the passenger.

I agree with IV53, there are some on Rail UK Forums that delight in winding people up, like IV53 just ignore them,

Hopefully the meeting on Thursday will see a settlement for the passengers sake, the third party.


Bob

 

[TDK]

Chaps, 22 pages covering everything from "The Leppard at the ATW HQ Circus who rides a milk float" to the Aslef suit seen outside Queen St Station with his polished ear ring having a laugh with mates as passengers were sent away(TV).

Both should have known better & shown more compassion for the person of paramount importance, the passenger.

I agree with IV53, there are some on Rail UK Forums that delight in winding people up, like IV53 just ignore them,

Hopefully the meeting on Thursday will see a settlement for the passengers sake, the third party.


Bob

Yes indeed Bob, if ATW have said they will not budge on the Sundays issue the only option for the dirvers is to accept a more realistic offer such as RPI or near as and keep their Sundays, if ATW agree on the t & C of keeping the Sundays on a voluntary basis I would imagine ASLE&F will advise ATW to take the offer, whether the drivers agree on these terms is another thing, if they do not them the headline "Drivers strike due to pay" can then be a correct headline.

BTW fellow forum folks, don't try and be a no.1 with your petty dissagreements with certain posters on here who will type anything to get a response, either such folks are unemployed, retired or have a lengthy holiday or they would not be able to attend this forum on a regular basis.

 

[1V53]

The problem is that there is no offer on the table without committed Sundays. The offer for both drivers and conductors is dependent on committed Sundays. The company will not remove that stipulation, and staff either want it removed OR a far higher premium to buy that condition. Many say they would happily accept a LOWER offer without committed Sundays but the company won't budge, at least not up to now.

 

[TDK]

The problem is that there is no offer on the table without committed Sundays. The offer for both drivers and conductors is dependent on committed Sundays. The company will not remove that stipulation, and staff either want it removed OR a far higher premium to buy that condition. Many say they would happily accept a LOWER offer without committed Sundays but the company won't budge, at least not up to now.

Watch this space 1V53 - I would imagine and offer will come across the table on Thursday without the committed Sundays but the offer is going to be so small the drivers will not accept it as other drivers in the DB group are receiving a large amount more than the ATW drivers - this in turn will switch it all over to the drivers as thay are then refusing a pay rise in an economic climate that is really dire and their positions will become completely dirtied, we will wait and see however I cannot see the next band of strikes being averted.

 

[1V53]

The staff also don't have the detailed 'how it would be managed' terms of committed Sundays. There was a draft agreement drawn up for drivers which hadn't been finalised. Conductors had no agreement (and I do partly blame the union for that but the offers up to now had the option of not committing to Sundays so as they knew it was contentious I guess they felt it wasn't a priority to thrash out an agreement). The company are saying conductors will fall back to the drivers arrangement... Even though the union has had no involvement or say in that arrangement and the drivers haven't agreed to it!

It's a complete mess to be honest. If the company had tried to thrash out an agreement on terms FIRST it would be more palatable. At least there wouldn't be all the unanswered questions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cross posted then TDK. The thing is the offers are broken down, so 2.5% was for Sundays. If they take that out then no problem. If they take more out then that would just be provocative IMHO. But that's just my opinion, I'm not a driver.

 

[Flamingo]

Watch this space 1V53 - I would imagine and offer will come across the table on Thursday without the committed Sundays but the offer is going to be so small the drivers will not accept it as other drivers in the DB group are receiving a large amount more than the ATW drivers - this in turn will switch it all over to the drivers as thay are then refusing a pay rise in an economic climate that is really dire and their positions will become completely dirtied, we will wait and see however I cannot see the next band of strikes being averted.

Well, this is the propaganda that ATW/DB is already putting out.

As I have already said, the RMT/ASLEF really really need to start putting their side of the case properly, not allowing ATW take the initiative (with their cheerleaders in the media using it for union-bashing). They are really coming across as amateurs stuck in a time-warp. I'd be giving them a kick up the arrse (if it was my dispute) to get their act together on that front.

 

[TDK]

Well, this is the propaganda that ATW/DB is already putting out.

As I have already said, the RMT/ASLEF really really need to start putting their side of the case properly, not allowing ATW take the initiative (with their cheerleaders in the media using it for union-bashing). They are really coming across as amateurs stuck in a time-warp. I'd be giving them a kick up the arrse (if it was my dispute) to get their act together on that front.

Agreed - all disputes of any kind ahve a certain amount of propaganda involved and ATW are very good at managing theirs, time will tell what will happen and if what I have foretold does I will refer to my previous post.

 

[1V53]

The drivers do have the added issue of falling behind on pay, so there is a not insignificant element that want what XC are on, without their worse conditions!! The guards simply want a half decent offer without Sundays, or a much better on with. The offer without the Sundays is good tbh, it's just the fact there are no terms and details and no opt out possibilities that is half the problem, plus the problem that we can't accept one without the other.

If there really is 'no more money', and in a profitable company that is not true anyway ("no more money allotted for you guys" would be more accurate) then keep the Sunday 2.5%, go away and work out the details and come back to us when you can be bothered to enter into meaningful negotiations over the matter.

 

[Flamingo]

Ooooh! Bit of a psycho analyst in our spare time are we, Flamingo! You clever little chap you!

Multi-talented, me . You would be amazed what I have qualifications in and the jobs I have done.

IT is one of my more boring ones.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well, this is the propaganda that ATW/DB is already putting out.

As I have already said, the RMT/ASLEF really really need to start putting their side of the case properly, not allowing ATW take the initiative (with their cheerleaders in the media using it for union-bashing). They are really coming across as amateurs stuck in a time-warp. I'd be giving them a kick up the arrse (if it was my dispute) to get their act together on that front.

Good point,mind you the leppard will no doubt have had a good talking too by his keeper & ATW ringmaster ref his remarks on air

Unofficial chats will no doubt be taking place now, about Thursdays agenda of course

Bob

 

[seagull]

Wouldn't entirely surprise me, knowing ATW, to see them offer an "improved pay offer" of Time+1/3 for Sundays instead of Time+1/4.
And if so I hope the union actually remember that their members have made it clear that it's not 'how much pay' is the issue, it's the principle of Sundays themselves.

It's all a big farce really. Initial offer company-wide was 2.5% for 2010 (when RPI was at 5.5%-ish). Unsurprisingly turned down flat. Then they upped the offer to 3.7%, still much less than RPI - but attached this Sunday string as well. I think most would quite happily go for the 3.7% for 2010 and RPI for 2011 on a two-year deal, but will they get that choice?

AXC drivers really got lucky last year - they'd previously agreed a three-year deal based around RPI + 1% or so, so 2010 saw them net a 6.5% pay rise. Probably part of the resentment in ATW stems from that - though it was more luck than judgement.

 

[1V53]

RMT press release this afternoon:

*

RAIL UNION RMT re-affirmed today that it remains in dispute with Arriva Trains Wales on the issues of pay and conditions for driver members and is looking at the political, campaigning, legal and industrial action required to take the dispute forward.

*

As a rebuttal to the outright lies of Arriva Trains Wales, RMT sets out the following facts:


· ATW are really trying to force in 'Compulsory Sunday Overtime' - on the cheap - for £13 a week.

· ATW claim that this dispute is all about pay and this is very misleading to the public, the Welsh Assembly and local politicians.

· This dispute for RMT has always been about:

- the right to decline additional hours over and above the working week.

- Allowing our members to choose whether or not they work their days off.

· RMT proposals to improve Drivers work life balance have been ignored by ATW. These proposals would improve Rail Safety and could help resolve the dispute.

· RMT has fought long and hard to achieve a 35 hour week and ATW now seemed determined to increase it through compulsory overtime.

· ATW have acknowledged that there is not a ' Sunday coverage' issue for drivers. If it isn't broke then why fix it?

· ATW want Sundays to be contractually binding overtime. This is an increase in the contracted hours.

· Our members will be unable to book leave on this 'compulsory overtime' day and will not be paid if they go sick. This is a worse contract of employment than it is for Monday to Saturday and within the 35 hour week.

· For the 'luxury' of having to work compulsory Sundays without any right to book that time off Drivers will get about an extra £13 per week after stoppages. This figure is based on a driver currently on approx £35,000 salary. 2.5% of this would be £875 and divided weekly is approx £17 and after tax this would be approx £13.

· ATW are not telling the public that the rest of the offer is made up of a cost of living increase and productivity that the drivers are actually giving up to pay for the pay rise.

· ATW are not worried about the service to the public. They are cynically manipulating the situation to avoid losing money when there is a dispute. ATW will get government bailouts through the DFT when there is official industrial action and this is their motivation- to get the taxpayers to bail them out when they mismanage their industrial relations with their staff.

· Drivers have been offered a base offer of 3.7% in year one and RPI +0.25% or 3% in year 2 (not 12%). Everything else being offered is being paid for in driver’s conditions and flexibility.

· Longer compulsory overtime hours for Train Drivers could have a negative impact on Railway Safety.

· With all the jobs being lost in Wales as a result of Government-led curs ATW are trying to force in compulsory overtime - reducing even further employment opportunities.

· The company claim they have the support of the Welsh Assembly Government and Department For Transport but those bodies remain silent. The politicians and civil servants have been deliberately misled as to what ATW are really up to.

· ATW have publicly compared their own train drivers to 'Milk float drivers'. This insult has undermined staff morale and completely ignores the safety related nature of running a modern railway. It has further worsened Industrial Relations.

· ATW are refusing to negotiate. They will not offer a pay rise without 'compulsory Sunday overtime' in it. This is holding a gun to the heads of the staff.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“RMT could immediately consider calling off the dispute if ATW offers a fair pay offer without any 'compulsory Sunday commitment' in it. RMT are more than willing to continue talking about any Sunday cover issues after completion of the pay discussions but ATW need to take the gun away from their staff's heads.

“ATW need to get back to the negotiation table to resolve the dispute and stop playing politics.”


ENDS

 

[ANorthernGuard]

RMT press release this afternoon:

*

RAIL UNION RMT re-affirmed today that it remains in dispute with Arriva Trains Wales on the issues of pay and conditions for driver members and is looking at the political, campaigning, legal and industrial action required to take the dispute forward.

*

As a rebuttal to the outright lies of Arriva Trains Wales, RMT sets out the following facts:


· ATW are really trying to force in 'Compulsory Sunday Overtime' - on the cheap - for £13 a week.

· ATW claim that this dispute is all about pay and this is very misleading to the public, the Welsh Assembly and local politicians.

· This dispute for RMT has always been about:

- the right to decline additional hours over and above the working week.

- Allowing our members to choose whether or not they work their days off.

· RMT proposals to improve Drivers work life balance have been ignored by ATW. These proposals would improve Rail Safety and could help resolve the dispute.

· RMT has fought long and hard to achieve a 35 hour week and ATW now seemed determined to increase it through compulsory overtime.

· ATW have acknowledged that there is not a ' Sunday coverage' issue for drivers. If it isn't broke then why fix it?

· ATW want Sundays to be contractually binding overtime. This is an increase in the contracted hours.

· Our members will be unable to book leave on this 'compulsory overtime' day and will not be paid if they go sick. This is a worse contract of employment than it is for Monday to Saturday and within the 35 hour week.

· For the 'luxury' of having to work compulsory Sundays without any right to book that time off Drivers will get about an extra £13 per week after stoppages. This figure is based on a driver currently on approx £35,000 salary. 2.5% of this would be £875 and divided weekly is approx £17 and after tax this would be approx £13.

· ATW are not telling the public that the rest of the offer is made up of a cost of living increase and productivity that the drivers are actually giving up to pay for the pay rise.

· ATW are not worried about the service to the public. They are cynically manipulating the situation to avoid losing money when there is a dispute. ATW will get government bailouts through the DFT when there is official industrial action and this is their motivation- to get the taxpayers to bail them out when they mismanage their industrial relations with their staff.

· Drivers have been offered a base offer of 3.7% in year one and RPI +0.25% or 3% in year 2 (not 12%). Everything else being offered is being paid for in driver’s conditions and flexibility.

· Longer compulsory overtime hours for Train Drivers could have a negative impact on Railway Safety.

· With all the jobs being lost in Wales as a result of Government-led curs ATW are trying to force in compulsory overtime - reducing even further employment opportunities.

· The company claim they have the support of the Welsh Assembly Government and Department For Transport but those bodies remain silent. The politicians and civil servants have been deliberately misled as to what ATW are really up to.

· ATW have publicly compared their own train drivers to 'Milk float drivers'. This insult has undermined staff morale and completely ignores the safety related nature of running a modern railway. It has further worsened Industrial Relations.

· ATW are refusing to negotiate. They will not offer a pay rise without 'compulsory Sunday overtime' in it. This is holding a gun to the heads of the staff.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“RMT could immediately consider calling off the dispute if ATW offers a fair pay offer without any 'compulsory Sunday commitment' in it. RMT are more than willing to continue talking about any Sunday cover issues after completion of the pay discussions but ATW need to take the gun away from their staff's heads.

“ATW need to get back to the negotiation table to resolve the dispute and stop playing politics.”


ENDS

Let the trolling begin