The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[GB]

You only have to look at the recent BA strikes to see its not that easy to get rid of staff

 

[Metroland]

I expect such tripe from the public but not those who I would expect to have a bit of insight. The problem is I think one or two people on here (Metroland and Captain Speaking) are too busy writing and don't spend enough time reading.

As I have been mentioned, you can have a reply. I do spend a lot of time reading, but the arguments are unconvincing. All the people 'in support' are railway people, pretty much. That tells you something for a start.

According to this mornings BBC news article:

Managers say an offer of a 12% rise over two years is extremely generous, but the Aslef union disagrees.

The union has accused the company of paying Welsh drivers less than their English counterparts.

It called for industrial action on Monday and asked for drivers working overtime on the Sunday shift not to turn up for work in protest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12587093

So, staff want a 12% pay increase in this economic climate, when 70% of the cost of the railway in Wales is paid for by tax payers many of whom are struggling to make ends meet and it's still not good enough?

Therefore, like many, I find it hard to have an awful lot of sympathy, especially this idea they 'get paid less than English drivers'. Since when was there a common rate of pay for the same job in any industry, and isn't the cost of living lower in Wales?

As for working Sundays, when I was in the Signalling grade, I worked every single one, and it wasn't in the 'working week' either, and nor were you allowed to have them off if you couldn't cover the job.

You know when you take the job you have to work maybe 7 days a week, you are told that when you start and asked if it's a problem. If you don't like it, don't take the job.

This is nothing to do with 'hating traincrew' and everything to do with constant disputes and strikes because the people involved are too busy defending and increasing their T&C in frankly a rather child like manner.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with it, yes I find it hard to understand, not because I cannot read, because it's just simply insensitive. And how strikers can expect any support is beyond me, and I would suggest outside the railways it's almost non-existant.

 

[CosherB]

No I'm just not a pompous pratt like you

Personal attacks now, eh? That's just bloody rude and ignorant and there's no excuse for it!

But resorting to personal insults does demonstrate that you don't have a cogent argument to offer.

 

[chuckles1066]

an ability to get anothe rjob quickly is never taken into account by an employment tribunal that is solely considered with findings of fact and how these facts operate in a legal sense.

We will agree to disagree, I am only reporting the professional advice given to me by someone whose hourly rate was £280

I assume they know a little about the field in which they specialise?

Or you'd like to think so

 

[strange6]

People do use the rail network through choice. If you'd had a cheaper or more convenient way to travel, you would have used it. Patchway has a good bus link to Bristol, but considerably slower. Driving at peak time is also slower and there is the expense of parking all day in Bristol. Alternatives are there, it's just that you chose not to use them.

Give me a packed express chuffer and a 30 min ride to Wigan from manchester anyday compared to a 2 hour drive stuck in traffic, burning diesel like no tomorrow and being utterly fed up, ANYDAY!

 

[Arriva158]

I'm just hoping they sort it quickly, if ASLEF do keep up then ATW will have to bow down to them quickly or see hell break loose from the passengers, I don't think the general public would mind HALF as much if there was replacement buses shuttling people around but since 1355 today the NWC is home to Virgin Vomits ONLY and considering the WCML reputation for time keeping, the ferry passengers arriving tonight are in for a nasty suprise!

It's horrible for me living in Gobowen now, with the strikes going on this would have given WSMR the perfect opportunity to get ALL the business on the wrexham - wolverhampton branch, never mind eh?

Bring on the return of the services at 0539 off Gobowen on(0505 Chester - Maesteg) Tuesday Morning

 

[CosherB]

The right to legally withdraw labour is something that is not unusual to rail staff and is available to everyone irrespective of their employer or the industry they work in. It is a "last resort" option that unfortunately has to be taken where a workforce is in dispute with an employer.

Indeed, but as I've said before rail staff can pretty much do that with impunity since many of their customers are effectively captive and can be readily inconvenienced by striking rail staff yet still be there next day to buy tickets.

If BA cabin staff strike, their customers will walk to BA's competitors and probably won't come back (I certainly wouldn't fly BA if there's an alternative service). So they take the risk that striking might lose them their job through a reduced number of customers.

Certain other workers, especially in the public sector, enjoy this 'captive customer' situation that rail has, and can cynically exploit it at the expense of those powerless customers. I strongly believe there is a case for banning strikes in such situations.

 

[chuckles1066]

Give me a packed express chuffer and a 30 min ride to Wigan from manchester anyday compared to a 2 hour drive stuck in traffic, burning diesel like no tomorrow and being utterly fed up, ANYDAY!

How many trains an hour from Wigan to Manchester?

1?

And if one of those regularly turns up shortformed so you can't get on?

Still game?

 

[Greenback]

It may have been that their advice was geared to your specific situation chuckles, which is exactly how it should be. I don't know much about it, obviously, but the advice may have been that in your position it may not have been worth going down the tribunal route, because you would not have been able to demonstrate a consequential loss arising fromt he unfair dismissal.

If so, then I can understand why the solicitor focused on your new job, as the tribunal may have awarded very little financial compensation, even though the awards are very hard to predict.

Of course, it's not always about money. Some people got to a tribunal to clear their name, or seek justice because they have been treated unfairly. Either way, it can be stressful and expensive!

Metroland, don't fall into the trap of believing everything you read! ATW are focussing on the headline % figure to build sympathy, and ASLEF are also trying to build sympathy among the Welsh by using the nationalist angle. It's a war of spin. The staff are adamant that it is about compulsory overtime on Sundays, not money, and I see no reason to disbelieve that.

 

[chuckles1066]

Of course, it's not always about money. Some people got to a tribunal to clear their name, or seek justice because they have been treated unfairly. Either way, it can be stressful and expensive!

Indeed; I have no idea of the salaries of those affected by the proposed changes but it takes substantial "cojones" to throw that away and take your chances before a tribunal and a hostile enemy solicitor

You're right - it will ALWAYS be stressful AND expensive.

Those involved need to weigh these things up before considering what action, if any, they are going to take........and sometimes, the view from the other side of the fence hasn't always been available to them before they make those decisions.

If I've opened one person's eyes to the possible pitfalls, my posts have not been in vain

 

[CosherB]

You do have a right to question it, but your, mine, and others opinions count for very little with regards the actual dispute, which is between staff and management.

A few on here seem to have that attitude; that it's a matter entirely between rail workers and rail management.

I agree. It is!

BUT the rail industry makes it their customer's problem by going on strike!. IT IS NOT THE CUSTOMERS' PROBLEM! So don't make it so! Sort it out between you like adults!

 

[Flamingo]

Metroland, it is not that the staff are rejecting a 12% pay increase. If you had read the posts from others, you would know this.

Management are offering a 12% pay increase over two years which has significant strings attached in changes of terms and conditions.

I see nothing wrong with staff refusing to change their T&C without recieveing what they consider adequate compensation. Why should they? If the company was struggling, then I could see the argument for change, but they seem to have a healthy balance sheet.

If ATW were to reduce their operating cost by doing this, I am fairly sure that they would not ask for their subsidy to be reduced. Am I the only one who thinks that this dispute coming on the back of their purchase to be more than a coincidence. It smacks of new owners wanting to maximise their investment.

If they were realistic about wanting to include Sundays in the working week, then employ and train enough drivers to operate a 5 day working week for everybody, but they are not prepared to hire enough staff to do this, and pay for their training.

Instead, they wish to have compulsory overtime to cover their shortfall and unwillingness to hire and train enough staff - cake and eating it springs to mind.

The problem the unions have in this case is that they are losing the propaganda war.

All the talk about "they should consider themselves lucky to have a job" is just so much hokum and sour grapes. To attract a calibre of staff, you have to pay them for their ability, or they will go to a different company or sector. I can never understand why a manager on a six-figure salary needs a bonus to motivate them to do their job to the best of their ability, but us little people should consider ourselves lucky to have a job on more than minimum wage, and have nothing more than the threat of dismissal at the whim of management as motivation.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed; I have no idea of the salaries of those affected by the proposed changes but it takes substantial "cojones" to throw that away and take your chances before a tribunal and a hostile enemy solicitor

You're right - it will ALWAYS be stressful AND expensive.

Those involved need to weigh these things up before considering what action, if any, they are going to take........and sometimes, the view from the other side of the fence hasn't always been available to them before they make those decisions.

If I've opened one person's eyes to the possible pitfalls, my posts have not been in vain

Correct, it would be a foolish person who throws in a job deliberately and relies on a tribunal to bail them out through constructive dismissal! Especially when they have a union that is going to fight the unfair, and imposed changes to the T&C's!

Similarly, it would be a foolish company that chose to dismiss all of its employees, hire cheap replacements and relying on any subsequent tribunal not ruling against their actions!

Which just about brings us back to where we are!

 

[Flamingo]

A few on here seem to have that attitude; that it's a matter entirely between rail workers and rail management.

I agree. It is!

BUT the rail industry makes it their customer's problem by going on strike!. IT IS NOT THE CUSTOMERS' PROBLEM! So don't make it so! Sort it out between you like adults!

So you are acknowledging that it is managements responsibility as well, and ATW management have a responsibility to try and prevent the situation arising?

 

[merlodlliw]

According to BBC text Wales avail all other the UK,ATW report some drivers reporting for work today with a spasmodic service.
Friends of mine working in Manchester can still get to work via Northern from Chester, and every seat will be taken no doubt.

Bob

 

[chuckles1066]

You only have to look at the recent BA strikes to see its not that easy to get rid of staff

The strikes cost BA £150m.

No-one wins in that situation.

 

[Metroland]

I'd agree both sides seem to be as bad as one another, as they often are in these disputes. It absolutely smacks of disconnection of reality of both sides, and you question the calibre of all involved, especially when there is talk of 100 ghost vacancies as well as further threats of action from guards, if we are to believe press reports.

I'd also question if ATW do have a healthy balance sheet, when £300 million was required from the tax payer last year. This is without the indirect subsidy from NR.

 

[CosherB]

Staff are not always going on strike as some would have you believe. They have indeed grudgingly accepted less than inflation several times before.

You just don't get it do you? Where is it writ in stone that everyone is entitled to an inflation-related annual pay rise? You live in LA LA land! The UK is in recession and it's about to get a lot worse. Most workers don't get pay rises AT ALL, not because their bosses are greedy but because business is bad, and the money just ain't there.

You bemoan sensible posters trying to point out the economic facts of life to you (at your age that shouldn't be neccessary but it seems it is) with the 'widgets' analogy, but you continue to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "LA LA LA I can't hear you".

 

[strange6]

How many trains an hour from Wigan to Manchester?

1?

And if one of those regularly turns up shortformed so you can't get on?

Still game?

lol You don't live in Wigan do you? there are at least 4 every hour. And you can always get on so yes, I'm still game lol

 

[CosherB]

So you are acknowledging that it is managements responsibility as well, and ATW management have a responsibility to try and prevent the situation arising?

Flamingo.. I DON'T CARE! It is not my problem, it is an internal issue within ATW. If I had a problem with my employer I'd have to sort it out. I certainly wouldn't foist it onto my customers by striking!

Not only is it not their problem, but in recognition of that they'd quite rightly sack me by taking their business to one of our competitors. My job was to add value for my customers, not to dump on them!

 

[1V53]

Again this is all really pointless. If the company were to recruit hundreds of drivers they would need the cooperation of the existing staff to do route knowledge and the 225 hours supervised hours needed. The ATW network is never going to be closed down forever either, certainly not just over a dispute which can be solved fairly easily. So all this talk of other peoples experiences in office or shop or factory jobs is in reality completely irrelevent

 

[CosherB]

So all this talk of other peoples experiences in office or shop or factory jobs is in reality completely irrelevent

Oh yes, I forgot. It's not the real world on the railway, is it. :roll:

 

[chuckles1066]

Again this is all really pointless. If the company were to recruit hundreds of drivers they would need the cooperation of the existing staff to do route knowledge and the 225 hours supervised hours needed.

Are you saying the staff enjoy 100% solidarity?

IME there will always be those who are actually quite happy with their lot, aren't overly bothered about new terms and conditions and will cheerfully do as they're told.

So all this talk of other peoples experiences in office or shop or factory jobs is in reality completely irrelevent

Not so - 225 hours is 14 days x 16 hours........If I was unemployed, I'd undertake that short-term harsh training commitment if you told me I could have a job by the middle of March paying me £25k (or whatever).

Office and factory workers apply here? Sure, the majority might fail but lots would pass.

 

[Metroland]

Oh yes, I forgot. It's not the real world on the railway, is it. :roll:

Clearly not. I suspect when the chickens do come home to roost (it won't be long now) they [the staff] will expect the railways supporters to come dashing to their aid.

I'll tell you what, I certainly won't be. I want significant reform of the whole way the industry works and some modern business practice, especially when it comes to giving employees not only a stake in the business they are involved in, but actually getting them to understand the bigger picture. And if employees don't want to play ball, get some replacements in that do want to provide a service instead of working out how much they can screw out of it.

 

[1V53]

Captain Speaking you are again not listening. I didn't say that I expected above inflation rises or even inflationary rises. Where did I say that? I said that we HADN'T had them. I said that because despite continually pointing out we are not being greedy, do not expect above inflationary rises, and have not had them, you and Metroland and others are accusing me and my colleagues of greed and unreasonable expectations.

As for the drivers (again if you stop speaking and read, you will see I am not a driver) wanting parity with other TOC's. I am not in Lala land, I am working in an industry where yes there isn't the competition, where there is a bubble. That's the railway and as I said earlier, unless you build ten tracks alongside and open it up for everyone to get the same subsidies (without subsidy there would be no railway) then it will always be different to your widget producer. Hence the widget analogy being completely irrelevant.

Fares went up by more than inflation nationally. The wages were priced into the franchise for the length of it and subsidies paid by statute as that is how the subsidy works. It was never in the franchise agreement to not increase wages in line with inflation, so why have other TOC's done so and ATW not done so? Can you hear the extra coins chinking around in the profit tin? Extra profit, way over that calculated in the franchise. Cue posts on 'when my Aunt Betty had her cleaning franchise....' and more irrelevant patronising part quoting non reading posts from CS....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you saying the staff enjoy 100% solidarity?

IME there will always be those who are actually quite happy with their lot, aren't overly bothered about new terms and conditions and will cheerfully do as they're told.



Not so - 225 hours is 14 days x 16 hours........If I was unemployed, I'd undertake that short-term harsh training commitment if you told me I could have a job by the middle of March paying me £25k (or whatever).

Office and factory workers apply here? Sure, the majority might fail but lots would pass.

The safety laws would prevent you working those sort of hours driving trains thank god. Safety laws were brought in after it was proved fatigue played a part in accidents where many members of the public died. Your post proves the very real danger attitudes like yours amongst those outside the industry whose idealistic ways of dealing with what they label 'militants' (actually reliable highly trained staff who are being told they are akin to milk float drivers by the ops director) would cause huge dangers to public safety.

 

[Metroland]

So at what point can fares stop going up and subsidy not increase?

 

[1V53]

Yes there are indeed 30% of the drivers who are happy with their lot and voted against the strike. However if you gave them the role of sharing your cab for ridiculously long shifts knowing you would be paid £10k less than them when you passed out I suspect they might have something to say about it!

 

[chuckles1066]

Yes there are indeed 30% of the drivers who are happy with their lot and voted against the strike. However if you gave them the role of sharing your cab for ridiculously long shifts knowing you would be paid £10k less than them when you passed out I suspect they might have something to say about it!

Ok, so it takes a month to train me rather than two weeks.

You're splitting hairs.

The 30% training me aren't the 70% who will soon be unemployed so I'm not a threat to them.

I was trying to maintain an impartial stance in this matter but I'm starting to form the opinion that there's an element of militancy here

 

[1V53]

So at what point can fares stop going up and subsidy not increase?

The capacity needs to be increased significantly (many lines are at or close to capacity and even ERTMS is not going to provide the increases needed) otherwise fares will continue to rise. Demand is outstripping supply and fuel continues to rise.

Look, I do agree we are in a very surreal environment and that environment is totally different to the 'real world'. But basically any reduced wages goes straight to the TOC pockets not back into the people paying for it, whether it be the farepayer or taxpayer or both.

So yes whilst this situation continues I guess staff will expect their slice of the cake to keep pace with the rest of those creaming in the money. That is how it is, and is why I have said those who are slating me are jealous, because they'd love their widget factory to exist in such a unique bubble.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ok, so it takes a month to train me rather than two weeks.

You're splitting hairs.

The 30% training me aren't the 70% who will soon be unemployed so I'm not a threat to them.

I was trying to maintain an impartial stance in this matter but I'm starting to form the opinion that there's an element of militancy here

If the 30% training you were on 10k more than you then don't you think there is a teensy bit of a chance they'd click that people like you would be taking their jobs before long? You either have an argument that they will employ people at the lowest wage possible or they won't. This is business you are talking about. However your arguments are flawed. If it was all so easy everyone would replace any staff with cheaper equivalents, you'd have nobody earning over 25k and the tax income would plummet and we would become a third world country.

Another point that is being missed is big wages have bigger taxes and get spent on goods like widgets

To be honest I just feel this thread is a laugh now. Let's face it Metroland, Chuckles and Captain, you just don't like the protective bubble we work in. It's not going to change anytime soon because of it's unique nature. To be honest those saying it will are simply speculating. We shall see what happens, won't we.

 

[Metroland]

It's nothing to do with capacity, BR had more or less the same and could run the network with a lot less tax take. Most lines are nowhere near capacity, especially in Wales.

The bottom line is costs are out of control, which stifle more investment. Management is poor, innovation is low, H&S is too arduous, and many staff are overpaid because of inflexible labour markets.