The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[CosherB]

I think that suggesting someone who drives a train, after all the training, rules, standards etc, who has the lives of anything up to 300 people behind them, does a 'hohum' job (I am assuming this means 'unimportant/humdrum/easy'?) is just plain ignorant. I am all for 'each to their own' on opinions but there comes a point you can't just make such ridiculous statements and not be challenged on it.

Train driving is a worthwhile and important job. But it's not rocket science. Any reasonably able person, if trained, could do it. It's not worth £50k, and because of that those levels of pay won't be sustained in the long term.

 

[1V53]

Train drivers at ATW are on nowhere near 50k!!

As for 'rocket science', only 'rocket science' is.... Well... Rocket science. Ultimately many of these senior managers get double or more what a train driver does, and 3x what I earn. They may have 'responsibility' for budgets etc but if they cock that up does anyone die? If things go wrong do they potentially have to personally secure the safety of those hundreds of people plus those on adjacent lines? No, because they are ensconced in the Land of Leather or talking Bollocks to Radio Wales.

 

[Greenback]

There is no doubt that there are elements in the great british publlic that think that it's an outrage that train drivers earn any more than the minimum wage. But since there are also people about who think that people like Peter Crouch are worth £xx000 per week, I tend to take whatever they say or think with a pinch of salt.

It's my opinion that a train driver is worth far more to society than a footballer, but that's all it is my opinion. I can't speak for everyone on this, and my opinions are no more valid than anyone else's on the matter.

In the same sort of vein, I believe that society values the wrong sort of person or at least, the wrong sort of job. I find it strange that someone can earn upwards of £100k in a council, or the NHS, for spouting a few managerial type buzz words and coming with ideas that frankly don't usually work, when those who clean the streets and empty the bedpans get comparitively little.

It's a bit like the ticketing in the UK really, you get a lot of extremes and a huge gap in the middle. Think of the most expensive walk up First and cheapest standard Advance!

 

[Bakers1970]

Train drivers at ATW are on nowhere near 50k!!

As for 'rocket science', only 'rocket science' is.... Well... Rocket science. Ultimately many of these senior managers get double or more what a train driver does, and 3x what I earn. They may have 'responsibility' for budgets etc but if they cock that up does anyone die? If things go wrong do they potentially have to personally secure the safety of those hundreds of people plus those on adjacent lines? No, because they are ensconced in the Land of Leather or talking Bollocks to Radio Wales.

Now whilst I am in agreement with some aspects of the strike reasons..Please bear in mind that while ( and more than likely) Traincrew will win the day. There are other equally important departments that will pay the price for this strike : I .. Maintenance Depots with Highly time served Engineers who quite frankly would love to be on an equal bargaining point come payrise time!!!
And Yes, these are highly skilled Teams work 12hour DAYS/Nights AND SUNDAYS as part of their normal rostered working week.

I hope all works itself out for the best for everybody but just feel that sometimes these vital and needed staff ,who have spent years training to become qualified , get passed by......

 

[mumrar]

Lot of armchair legal experts in here. Time and again the "if the industry is 24/7....." argument comes up. The point is when you take a job, you take it on a contract, the terms of that contract arte what governs your work, not the hours of business operations.

I can phone the call centre in India for 3 mobile (and have to do so frustratingly often) between 8 and 10 7 days a week. Should I therefore expect 3 mobiles shops to be open at 10pm on a Sunday night? I can use my mobile at any given hour of any given day, so their business operates 24/7 so actually I want the shops open all day, every day, with a 3 day shift system, same for the call centres and the mobile phone repair centres.

Can people see how unreasonable that looks. It is no different to the scenario with traincrew not obliged to work on Sundays. I don't care if my company has committed to run trains then. If they won't adequately compensate me for giving up my free time, then I won't do them. It's between the company who makes the contract and the customer who made the contract what happens then, it is not MY responsibility to ensure that contract is fulfilled.

 

[CarterUSM]

Why is this even still being discussed? The reasons for industrial action have been clearly stated, those who disagree with it, don't like it, can't do anything about it, and that's that. I wouldn't waste time going round in circles with them.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

stop taking the bait from CS, I never will again he really isn't worth it folks

 

[CosherB]

stop taking the bait from CS, I never will again he really isn't worth it folks

Actualy, ANG, a few on here have come back to my posts with cogent arguments which are well worth reading. You could learn something from them instead of being so negative and 'closed'.

 

[Metroland]

I tend to agree with much of what CS have written, and it's been my concern for some time that some staff are insensitive to the big picture and are oblivious to the need for restraint given the pressure on public spending, and moreover the McNaulty review. These are the sorts of things only your best friend would tell you. All sorts of people read this forum, and attitudes have been noted.

While the majority of the public think rail fares are poor VFM it's generally agreed across the board in political circles the network is costing too much, it would be prudent to retain the thought that retention of (at the very least) the regional railway network is a political decision not a commercial one. Therefore respectfully taking on board the criticisms and public scrutiny of salaries is not only right and proper, but to be expected.

The railways may be private companies, but while they consume so much public money (which could otherwise spent) it is much harder to argue for the expansion of the network if tools are dropped every five minutes in the pursuit of personal gain, especially given some staff earn more than most other 'worthwhile and important jobs' such as nurses, fire-fighters, policemen, teachers, to name but a few, some of which take far more training and have just as much responsibility if not more.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I tend to agree with much of what CS have written, and it's been my concern for some time that some staff are insensitive to the big picture and are oblivious to the need for restraint given the pressure on public spending, and moreover the McNaulty review. These are the sorts of things only your best friend would tell you. All sorts of people read this forum, and attitudes have been noted.

While the majority of the public think rail fares are poor VFM it's generally agreed across the board in political circles the network is costing too much, it would be prudent to retain the thought that retention of (at the very least) the regional railway network is a political decision not a commercial one. Therefore respectfully taking on board the criticisms and public scrutiny of salaries is not only right and proper, but to be expected.

The railways may be private companies, but while they consume so much public money (which could otherwise spent) it is much harder to argue for the expansion of the network if tools are dropped every five minutes in the pursuit of personal gain, especially given some staff earn more than most other 'worthwhile and important jobs' such as nurses, fire-fighters, policemen, teachers, to name but a few, some of which take far more training and have just as much responsibility if not more.

I do agree that yes Nurses etc. are underpaid for the responsibilty etc. that they have, but that argument in many ways correct cannot be always used with the same arguments as no matter what career you take, you CHOOSE that option, many railwayman especially from the BR days were seriously underpaid and had to do a shedload of overtime to pay the bills, that was expected then, however times change, this everyone should look at the big picture is very worthwhile, but lets face some facts about the good old human being, do you look at the big picture before going shopping and deciding what to feed your family? or like everyone get the best you can afford to buy, do you think utility companies look at the "big picture" before hiking up the bills another 10% of course not, the majority of companies go for profit 1st and the majority of workers go for the best wage they can possibly get, that is a fact of life, I personally feel that myself and my colleagues are underpaid compared to other people with the same Job and when the pay talks come around will any member of staff look at the big picture, maybe a tiny fraction, maybe but most will look at how much money it will bring to the table, I have friends that have had the threat of or have been made redundant, everyone of them will say that they are p**sed off worried etc. but the majority of the career persons will openly say in some industries thats always a risk. with rpi steadily climbing and the usual yearly pay talks come around I will look at the offer and decide if I feel it is fair for myself like every other member of staff in any industry will do, just because alot of councils/firms are close to bankruptcy caused by the banks and to a lesser degree that the tories will admit to, the previous government, why should persons in an industry that is thriving bare the brunt, in a perfect world everyone would be happy with everything that they want, in the real world some people lose out, some people gain, thats the fact of life

 

[Metroland]

why should persons in an industry that is thriving bare the brunt, in a perfect world everyone would be happy with everything that they want, in the real world some people lose out, some people gain, thats the fact of life

If the railways were 100% commercial I couldn't give a damn if some grades earned 100k plus, provided the service was good and fares were cheap.

Now I'm certainly not of the school of thought that we should punish the public sector because of political mistakes and problems caused by the private sector, namely the banks. There is an awful lot of right wing rubbish talked about cutting back public services and everything will be just fine. I guess if you are rich enough to pay for your own health, education, transport etc services, it might not be such a concern. But at the same time, they money doesn't grow on trees, and it is a harsh fact of life that there is only a certain amount of cash to go around.

You are right to say than in BR days pay was very poor, and most right minded people will support workers bettering their conditions and pay given this background.

What is more questionable is public services, such as the railways, being used as a political tool or used a vehicle for personal gain give that most grades are reasonably well remunerated, with a good pension and other benefits.

Strikes wouldn't be a problem if people didn't have to take the brunt of disruption frequently and have to put up with fare rises year-on-year. Personally, I'm more concerned about the expansion of the network. With rising oil prices, here is a golden opportunity for the railways to gain market share, but this is being jeopardized because of questions over value for money in general. With the rises in passenger numbers of the last decade, unit costs and subsidy should be falling, while perversely it is rising! The money creamed off by a combination of pay rises, lack of productivity, over management, poor H&S management, and some profit taking - although a word of caution, per company profits are modest at best. Therefore, this would be a more cumulative effect, with the causation the industry structure.

Now it is intellectually lazy to blame staff for all of the cost rises in the industry, but like it or not, they are part of it. I don't think people would have a problem if overall costs were falling, and pay rises were on the back of productivity. Notwithstanding the point about negotiating terms of conditions, this would be fair if the market for some grades was open and transparent. In reality, many of the perks of been gained by using the battering ram of strike action, given the background there is not a ready pool of workers to take over in some grades. The net result is year-on-year price hikes for most tickets, more tax take and the threat of a smaller network.

Like it or not staff have to do better than say 'tough' in order to justify their actions, it is simply not fair on the rest of us to standby and watch, given we will have to put up with the consequences. And if people don't understand this, they really shouldn't be in the job.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If the railways were 100% commercial I couldn't give a damn if some grades earned 100k plus, provided the service was good and fares were cheap.

Now I'm certainly not of the school of thought that we should punish the public sector because of political mistakes and problems caused by the private sector, namely the banks. There is an awful lot of right wing rubbish talked about cutting back public services and everything will be just fine. I guess if you are rich enough to pay for your own health, education, transport etc services, it might not be such a concern. But at the same time, they money doesn't grow on trees, and it is a harsh fact of life that there is only a certain amount of cash to go around.

You are right to say than in BR days pay was very poor, and most right minded people will support workers bettering their conditions and pay given this background.

What is more questionable is public services, such as the railways, being used as a political tool or used a vehicle for personal gain give that most grades are reasonably well remunerated, with a good pension and other benefits.

Strikes wouldn't be a problem if people didn't have to take the brunt of disruption frequently and have to put up with fare rises year-on-year. Personally, I'm more concerned about the expansion of the network. With rising oil prices, here is a golden opportunity for the railways to gain market share, but this is being jeopardized because of questions over value for money in general. With the rises in passenger numbers of the last decade, unit costs and subsidy should be falling, while perversely it is rising! The money creamed off by a combination of pay rises, lack of productivity, over management, poor H&S management, and some profit taking - although a word of caution, per company profits are modest at best. Therefore, this would be a more cumulative effect, with the causation the industry structure.

Now it is intellectually lazy to blame staff for all of the cost rises in the industry, but like it or not, they are part of it. I don't think people would have a problem if overall costs were falling, and pay rises were on the back of productivity. Notwithstanding the point about negotiating terms of conditions, this would be fair if the market for some grades was open and transparent. In reality, many of the perks of been gained by using the battering ram of strike action, given the background there is not a ready pool of workers to take over in some grades. The net result is year-on-year price hikes for most tickets, more tax take and the threat of a smaller network.

Like it or not staff have to do better than say 'tough' in order to justify their actions, it is simply not fair on the rest of us to standby and watch, given we will have to put up with the consequences. And if people don't understand this, they really shouldn't be in the job.

maybe in some TOC's strike action is prevalent, I for instance in a decade of working on the railway I have been on strike.....2 days, as said previously I do sympathise with some people but what you are saying even though in a perfect world be g8 i'm sure, but the majority of people no matter if its a public/private business are doing it for themselves of course we are. do you really think the Majority of MP's become members of parliament for the good of humanity, of course not they are in it for cold cash simple, do I love my job? yes I do, am I proud of the job I do yes I am will I fight for the best deal I can get of course I will, principles do not pay the bills, and if anyone really thinks that the majority of people work for the greater good they are very very naive.

 

[mumrar]

Like it or not staff have to do better than say 'tough' in order to justify their actions, it is simply not fair on the rest of us to standby and watch, given we will have to put up with the consequences.

Really? The government are going to cut around 10000 Police nationwide in the next 2 years, whilst crime rises due to rising unemployment and desperation. Also they are cancelling projects to build prisons, which will mean nowhere to put them, so yet more soft sentencing.

Two weeks ago my car was broken in to whilst parked near a train station. I only discovered this after a full shift at 23:30. I called the Police, who logged it, but were quite happy for me to drive the scene of the crime home. I then received a call from Kidderminster (I live in Redditch which has a perfectly capable Police Station) saying that nobody would come to investigate unless there was blood (they smashed the window) or some obvious fingerprints. I asked how I should go about finding obvious finger prints, sellotape all over the interior of the car?

What am I able to do about that? If "Call me Dave's" big sham...sorry big society takes that attitude to crime, which is the job of the Police, why is it so important for rail staff to look at the bigger picture?

 

[Metroland]

Because if they can politically get rid of police, fire fighters, teaching assistants, council workers, bus routes and so on, the same applies to the railways. While enthusiasts, staff and some commuters may view the railways as important, most people do not.

Let's just say when it comes to the next round of finance for the railways, the budget is cut to such an extent many line closures are inevitable. It will then be down to a political debate whether they stay or go, if the public view they are an expensive luxury then they will go. If staff are frequently on strike, getting some quite silly pay rises in some cases, it hardly wins hearts and minds.

Thankfully (and luckily) there are arguments that can be made about fuel costs and the green agenda, which helps the cause, but it cannot be at any cost.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Because if they can politically get rid of police, fire fighters, teaching assistants, council workers, bus routes and so on, the same applies to the railways. While enthusiasts, staff and some commuters may view the railways as important, most people do not.

Let's just say when it comes to the next round of finance for the railways, the budget is cut to such an extent many line closures are inevitable. It will then be down to a political debate whether they stay or go, if the public view they are an expensive luxury then they will go. If staff are frequently on strike, getting some quite silly pay rises in some cases, it hardly wins hearts and minds.

Thankfully (and luckily) there are arguments that can be made about fuel costs and the green agenda, which helps the cause, but it cannot be at any cost.

I think you will find more lines are re-opening than there has been for years, electrification is going ahead in the North-west the new High speed lines have been given the go-ahead, the only things that have been cut back are Network Rails budget (which will mainly be done with good house-keeping) and some future carriages, no government in their right mind would go for closures when train use is at its highest for decades with punctuality and reliability at record highs, it would be political suicide "Dave" may be a fantasist and I personally hate the Conservative party however even I am pleased with there investment into the industry at a time when money isn't ecaxtly flowing smoothly

 

[CarterUSM]

Like it or not staff have to do better than say 'tough' in order to justify their actions, it is simply not fair on the rest of us to standby and watch, given we will have to put up with the consequences. And if people don't understand this, they really shouldn't be in the job.

I believe the staff have justified their actions. 'Tough' applies to those who still don't like it. None of them are going to change their mind no matter what argument is put forward. I can see the big picture you and Captain are painting, but I consider it over negative. Rail(passenger) is still booming, with the exception of a few lines. Not to say there won't be major budgetary cuts in the future however, I almost expect it. Pay deals will be interesting for the next few years for sure.

 

[anthony263]

Too be honest i dont think anybody is going to win with this ATW strike well apart from the bus bandits perhaps. Perhaps the staff may get a better deal but they may have lost a lot of support from members of the public same with the ATW management.

The media have also got to take some blame for hyping things up which i think may be some reason why the unions have lost support from some members of the public.

I myself am not pleased about ATW drivers going on strike on monday as i think they may be being a bit too selfish and this will damage them a bit. I do think staff should be prepared to work sundays especially since times are chaning and there is demnd for more rail services on sundays but staff should be better paid to account for this and more staff should be hired.

The management at ATW also needs to get their act together from what i have read and been told some of them are acting like a buch of muppets(sorry if i offend anyone)

To be honest i hope another firm comes in when the wales franchise gets re-let in 2018 or something i think or maybe the WAG should take over the operation of the wales franchise(But then again s that really a good idea?)

 

[notadriver]

Train driving is a worthwhile and important job. But it's not rocket science. Any reasonably able person, if trained, could do it. It's not worth £50k, and because of that those levels of pay won't be sustained in the long term.

The average wage for train drivers in Britain is 41k and aren't train drivers in most of Europe paid around that level?

 

[TDK]

Train driving is a worthwhile and important job. But it's not rocket science. Any reasonably able person, if trained, could do it. It's not worth £50k, and because of that those levels of pay won't be sustained in the long term.

Yes, but after travelling 2000m we do not engage auto pilot and then use the GPS navigation so the train drives itself and we do not have the option to have an auto pilot or an ILS type system for stopping at stations, all a pilot does in my view is steer the plane to the runway open up the throttles to V1 take off set up the auto pilot and the plane flies itself, so, Captain Speaking who has the more demanding role, a pilot or a train driver - Any reasonable person could fly an airliner with the correct training it's not rocket science

 

[chuckles1066]

What is so specail about working Sundays? Only someone who doesn;t work them would ask!

Seriously though, I worked a lot of Sundays when I was young and single. And when I wa sina long distance relationship. The extra money came in handy, and I had long weekends when I could be with a partner - I never worked a Sunday on those weekends, that was my choice!

But as you get older, settle down and have a family, things change. When you work unsocial hours it does play havoc with your family and social life. On a week of lates you will only see your love dones on rest days, which will probably be when the children are in school for most of the day and the partner is at work. Realistivally, Sunday is the only opportunity for many people to enjoy a 'family day'.

Having said that, I would like to know more about the other strings (there are bound to be some) attached to this deal. I think there may be more involved than just a few Sundays a year.

Very well put.

I'm not railway but I worked seven days a week for five years in my younger days (the money helped me pay our mortgage off after 16 years).

Back in those days, I didn't think twice about it - I was young and fit.

Nowadays in my forties? You couldn't pay me enough to give up my Sundays. Been there, done it.

 

[CosherB]

Yes, but after travelling 2000m we do not engage auto pilot and then use the GPS navigation so the train drives itself and we do not have the option to have an auto pilot or an ILS type system for stopping at stations, all a pilot does in my view is steer the plane to the runway open up the throttles to V1 take off set up the auto pilot and the plane flies itself, so, Captain Speaking who has the more demanding role, a pilot or a train driver - Any reasonable person could fly an airliner with the correct training it's not rocket science

Well, if you try to take off at V1 you'll kill probably everyone one board.

Nothing drives itself like a train does - it's as if it's on rails!

Ever flown an ILS? At night, in foul weather and a limiting crosswind? In the mountains. Or a non-precision NDB cloudbreak to a visual circling approach under a low cloud deck at night in the mountains (Dalaman, perhaps?) etc? Thought not. It's a lot harder than rocket science.

If an engine fails on a train you just carry on. In an aeroplane, you reduce speed and descend, and your fuel consumption goes through the roof. So you re-calculate all your minimums and if neccessary, divert to some god-forsaken field with next to no navaids!

If all your engines fail on a train, you coast to a halt and light a fag. In an aeroplane, you start to earn your crust by somehow putting several hundered tons of aluminium, fuel, and human flesh down in one piece... somewhere! Perhaps the Hudson River? Ask Captain Sulley about rocket science!

Rocket science? Pah! There's absolutely nothing in the universe to get your sphincter twitching as when something goes seriously wrong in an aeroplane. It's that 3rd dimension... and the fact that you can't just stop and have a think if things get hectic - you have to handle it as it happens or it'll handle you! Rocket science is a beach in comparison!

Oh, and autopilots.... Even the very best ones one like the latest Airbus chuck in the towel in severe turbulence or when the going gets really tough in other ways.

If things get really bad in a train cab (hard to visualise how), you can always stop, get out, and run off screaming to the nearest pub. Try that in a thunderstorm with 2 engines out and hydraulic failure at 40,000 feet!

Oh, edited to add. If anyone thinks commercial pilots have it easy and are overpaid there is absolutely nothing to stop you becoming one as long as you can pass the medical (not difficult for most folk). Unlike train driver training, which is entirely controlled by the TOCs, anyone can qualify as a pilot. It is an open market, unlike train driving. Get yourself qualified (CPL / IR minimum, though an ATPL and Type Rating is more marketable) and you can tout yourself around the airlines for a job. And you'll get one. Lots of folk do just that! But it takes balls and comittment - you'll need to borrow upwards of £80K, maybe £100K to get qualified and it's damned hard work - plenty fail. Then when you get a job, you'll have that nice big debt eating a large part of your (on the face of it) very nice salary.

Not quite like train driving, is it?

 

[Flamingo]

What is your point? (or your problem?) I can't work out either.

You are coming across as just having a chip on your shoulder against train-staff being paid to do their job. I'm sure there is more to it than that, but I can't follow what it is.

 

[CosherB]

What is your point? (or your problem?) I can't work out either.

Look very carefully at my post, Flamingo. At the top is a 'quote' from a poster called TDK.

My post is an answer to his. Now do you want me to spell it out in simpler language than this?

Not rocket science, is it? :roll:



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Metroland speaks sense, but he isn't right about the cause of the cuts. That's down to one Gordon Brown. Yes, the banks screwed up and had to be bailed out, but the 'bailing' money was only about 4% of the debt Gordon left us; the other 96% is becuase year on year he borrowed money he didn't have, to spend on (mostly) expanding jobs in the public sector with little to show for it in improved services.

The banks are now making mega profits on which they pay mega taxes, so the debt they owe to us is rapidly being paid off. The banks are not our problem - the level of public spending, way above our income, is very much our problem. The debt Gordon left us gets daily bigger because as a country we borrow more than we earn. That's called the deficit, which 'the cuts' are aimed to reduce.

If we ever manage to eliminate the deficit, we can start worrying about how we are are going to pay off the mountain of debt Gordon left us.

My guess is that things are going to get very unpleasant indeed over the next few years, as there is no painless way out of this mess.

 

[Flamingo]

Look very carefully at my post, Flamingo. At the top is a 'quote' from a poster called TDK.

My post is an answer to his. Now do you want me to spell it out in simpler language than this?

It wasn't all your babble about becoming a pilot, anybody can do it, it's your posts in general. they are just a general bad-tempered rant about how easy everybody else has it and you had to work for a living (not as a rocket-scientist, I presume).

Well, rocket science is easy compared to neurosurgery.

 

[1V53]

Just a few points:

1. The main problem with the drivers is the enforced commitment to work Sundays, not 'more money'.

2. If a train fails the driver does not just 'light up a fag'. Such a comment just shows ignorance (again). Drivers have to have a lot of unit and mechanical knowledge and are expected to undertake a lot of diagnostic checks. I agree it may not be as pressured as a pilot bringing a failed plane down but that scenario is not one that happens often.

We can compare jobs and give opinions on their various merits till the cows come home, this is a discussion board after all. But perhaps participants can also keep an eye on the facts too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and "the banks are now making mega profits"? Not sure the shareholders of RBS or Lloyds, both of whom reported this week, would agree with that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh and "the banks are now making mega profits"? Not sure the shareholders of RBS or Lloyds, both of whom reported this week, would agree with that.

Shhh don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant

 

[Metroland]

Unlike train driver training, which is entirely controlled by the TOCs, anyone can qualify as a pilot. It is an open market, unlike train driving. Get yourself qualified (CPL / IR minimum, though an ATPL and Type Rating is more marketable) and you can tout yourself around the airlines for a job. And you'll get one. Lots of folk do just that! But it takes balls and comittment - you'll need to borrow upwards of £80K, maybe £100K to get qualified and it's damned hard work - plenty fail. Then when you get a job, you'll have that nice big debt eating a large part of your (on the face of it) very nice salary.

Indeed, I know several people who have done this, one a mate of mine, another a former signaller, another one a MOM on the railways. With the right commitment, it's something people can aim for and succeed at.

Likewise, I could make a list of talented people who are very keen to get onto the railways, who would be a real asset, who are prohibited from doing do because of the closed shop the TOCs run and lack of opportunity. The fact of the matter is if train crew was an open market (and this applies to other roles too) some of the current staff simply wouldn't get away with exploiting this for all it's worth, and would be replaced by other more committed people as they are in almost all other industries. Until the railways address this, I predict they will always suffer from disproportionate industrial action.

Turning to whether the railways finances are sustainable, it's generally agreed they are not, so something must give. Clearly, if you have rising passenger numbers, additional money can be creamed off. But if passengers numbers fall, say because of price hike because of government policy to shift more of the burden toward to fare-payer coupled with a generally poor economic outlook, the house of cards tumbles and difficult decisions will have to be made, even if that's just cancelling new lines or re-opening projects.

 

[ivanhoe]

How about comparing the job with a bus driver? I'd argue the job of a bus driver is more stressful and demanding , but considerably less rewarding( financially) . I'd also argue that a bus driver could be trained to drive trains . It's not about skills alone but more about luck. It's easier to get a job driving a Bus( once qualified) than becomming a train driver! The term closed shop comes to mind!

 

[Metroland]

Well it's closed shop insomuch as most other transport jobs (including HGV, pilot, bus driver, driving instructor) provided I have the money (or sponsorship) I can take training tomorrow and compete in the market if I pass the course.

Most other jobs, you can take courses of some kind, get experience and compete.

The railways, like a few other professions such as the police, are fairly unique insomuch it's almost all inhouse and opportunities are very limited, which means the people in those jobs can exploit the lack of supply to replace them, which simply doesn't exist in most employment areas, only the very highest skill levels. It's not all railway grades than can do this, because there are pools of workers that can take conversion courses (especially Pway/S&T, engineers) but certainly train crew are in a unique position they are quite difficult to replace because of the way the market/industry works.

 

[1V53]

It's nothing to do with a 'closed shop' but again why let facts get in the way. I, like many of my colleagues, applied for vacancies off the street (admittedly rare to get that chance due to low staff turnover) and got the job on merit. Many fail the tests as they are quite stringent.

Bus drivers are much worse paid and conditions deteriorated after privatisation due to competition and weak trade unions. Thats why bus driving, once a prestige job where people struggled to get jobs with big companies like Crosville, is now a relatively poorly paid job. Train crew are merely trying to preserve their conditions.