The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[Wolfie]

Thanks for the post whoosh, it has confirmed what I thought. The advantages to ATW are greater than the benefits to the employees. Plus committed Sundays will bring them in line with AXC.

You are also correct in saying that other orgnaisations outside of the railway do tend to either employ suffieicnt numbers to allow for a 4 or 5 out 7 day rolling roster, or rely on voluntary working, rather than trying to force people to work extra hours over and above their contracted ones.

Curiosity Question:
What system do Chiltern operate?

 

[Metroland]

If they want a 7 day a week railway you need to compensate the staff - simples. Would you alter your working week without it?

The unions have actually tried to keep Sundays off part of the working week for generations, thus in order to attract extra pay. In practice, it depends what grade you are whether you have to work it, and if the turn can be covered.

Containing spiralling wage bills must be crucial to the railway industry’s attempt to reduce the industry’s burden on the taxpayer, the chairman of the train operators’ trade body has said.

Tom Smith, chairman of the Association of Train Operating Companies, told the Financial Times that a tendency to give in to wage demands was part of the reason train operating companies had barely cut costs since their mid-1990s privatisation.

Mr Smith said cost control must become the industry’s focus after years of effort directed towards improving safety and punctuality after the Hatfield rail crash in October 2000.

Taxpayers meet around half the rail industry’s costs, while passenger fares, payments from freight customers and other revenue contribute the other half.

“We need to get into a virtuous circle where costs are sustainably contained and falling but the revenue is rising,” Mr Smith said. Past government policies had given train operators more incentive to keep workers happy with big pay rises than keep costs down.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e339131e-3de2-11e0-99ac-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1EdiSHRW0

 

[gondukin]

While I can understand drivers not being happy about committed Sundays (I don't like the sound of that myself), can't they take action without bringing the whole network to a halt, e.g. work to rule, and maybe only cover approx half the services on Sundays? This would drag down Arriva's performance so they got pentalties or had to start refunding season ticket holders, but people could largely still get where they wanted, albeit on less frequent, more crowded services.

Looks like they are planning that as well as the strikes, hopefully it wasn't something I said.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardif...s-hit-back-at-media-portrayal-91466-28209836/

 

[merlodlliw]

Looks like they are planning that as well as the strikes, hopefully it wasn't something I said.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardif...s-hit-back-at-media-portrayal-91466-28209836/

Love the quote
“Since the senior management moved into their new offices in Penarth Road – known as the Land of Leather by staff outside – they have become more out of touch with the staff who actually keep the trains moving."

But more in touch with WAG,having seen some of the antics over the past couple of years, in my opinion.

Bob

 

[CosherB]

It seems the more you pay people, the greedier they get. Train drivers these days are on dream wages compared to BR days, yet they strike for more!

ATW - they seem to want equal pay to other tocs but without the harder conditions - what planet do they live on?

I work Sundays and get paid for it at exactly the same rate I get during the week. These days, Sunday is 'just another day'.

Here we have a case of a bunch of workers who are not only isolated from the harsh reality of the current UK economic situation (I and most others I know are complete strangers to pay rises - try working in IT or most other sectors now and most folk haven';t had a rise in years - due the state of the economy! Why should rail workers be exempt?) but then want even more!

If ATW are so keen to be paid the same as other tocs, why don't they up sticks and move to those tocs? That's what happens in the private sector (oops, I forgot. Rail is in the private sector. Well all I can say is from this sort of 'I'm all right Jack' attitude you wouldn't know it!).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It seems the more you pay people, the greedier they get. Train drivers these days are on dream wages compared to BR days, yet they strike for more!

ATW - they seem to want equal pay to other tocs but without the harder conditions - what planet do they live on?

I work Sundays and get paid for it at exactly the same rate I get during the week. These days, Sunday is 'just another day'.

Here we have a case of a bunch of workers who are not only isolated from the harsh reality of the current UK economic situation (I and most others I know are complete strangers to pay rises - try working in IT or most other sectors now and most folk haven';t had a rise in years - due the state of the economy! Why should rail workers be exempt?) but then want even more!

If ATW are so keen to be paid the same as other tocs, why don't they up sticks and move to those tocs? That's what happens in the private sector (oops, I forgot. Rail is in the private sector. Well all I can say is from this sort of 'I'm all right Jack' attitude you wouldn't know it!).

Repeat repeat repeat..same old sentence from the same person, get over yourself Captain, its not our fault you have Sundays as a normal day, get over your jealousy and add something constructive.

 

[Flamingo]

NHS pays extra for Sundays, and the T&C there are pretty lousy.
However, it is the largest employer in the country (& Europe, I believe).
You need to either get a new job, or renegociate your T&C, Captain.

 

[TDK]

Love the quote
“Since the senior management moved into their new offices in Penarth Road – known as the Land of Leather by staff outside – they have become more out of touch with the staff who actually keep the trains moving."

But more in touch with WAG,having seen some of the antics over the past couple of years, in my opinion.

Bob

Taken from the Echo:

"
In a detailed list of grievances he said was leading to poor morale of staff, the driver said he and his colleagues had to endure poor working conditions which included unheated cabs."

Untrue, a driver has the right to refuse to take a train if the cab heater is not working, if this driver takes the train he cannot moan about it


The driver said that the company does not employ enough staff to cover for Sundays and called on politicians to back his colleagues in their bid to get more people trained up to drive for Arriva Trains Wales.

Untrue, if Sundays were rostered as overtime there are planty of drivers to cover, it is because drivers are not working booked Sundays they cannot cover the work however the current T & C says Sundays are voluntry.


He said: “Surely it would be better for a responsible media and politicians to demand that the jobs be created and the overtime stopped.

No good creating jobs if Sundays are voluntry as the new drivers may not want to work their Sundays either.


“It’s not just the drivers, the same problem exists with the guards, meaning the company has well over 100 ‘ghost vacancies’ it refuses to acknowledge or fill.

I believe ATW do not have a rest day agreement so if this was the case there would be major disruption on a daily basis

ASLEF as far as I am aware are for Sundays in the working week and not against, it is the drivers who wish to keep their right on voluntary Sundays, ASLEF would welcome Sundays in the working week with a 4 day week as this would create a lot more jobs for people wanting to enter the business as drivers. This is a catch 22 situation as the drivers cannot demand parity with other companies and then refuse the other companies terms and conditions.

 

[CosherB]

Repeat repeat repeat..same old sentence from the same person, get over yourself Captain, its not our fault you have Sundays as a normal day, get over your jealousy and add something constructive.

Oh dear, you again!

Did I say I even object to having Sundays as a normal day? Actually, I love it! So how silly is your comment " its not our fault you have Sundays as a normal day, get over your jealousy" now?

Engage brain before posting, please, especially if you are going to be personally insulting which seems to be your standard form of address. Consider that there might be a little more to what someone posts that your predjudices blind you to.

Oh, and lighten up - you are too young to be a grumpy narrow minded git!

You need to either get a new job, or renegociate your T&C, Captain.

No I don't. I love doing what I do on Sundays. Did that not occur to you either?

How do you know I'm not a vicar? (I'm not, by the way; I'm retired from a senior position in IT but have a fascinating part time job which is nothing to do with IT. But I worked plenty of weekends on big IT bids in my time).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In the majority of posts all you do is treat Traincrew with contempt whether they are guards, drivers or any other grade you fancy having a pop at, this in turn makes alot of people think you have a deep rooted hatred of train staff in general, may I suggest if you hate train staff that much as in your mind we are all greedy good for nothings who don't deserve the pay we get (or don't) that you get the bus or drive?

btw i'm only grumpy when I see myself and my colleagues get continually insulted by you!

 

[Flamingo]

No I don't. I love doing what I do on Sundays. Did that not occur to you either?

How do you know I'm not a vicar? (I'm not, by the way; I'm retired from a senior position in IT but have a fascinating part time job which is nothing to do with IT. But I worked plenty of weekends on big IT bids in my time).

Then don't say "I don't get paid Sundays" in a holier than thou attitude. If you are prepared to work Sundays for nought, then that's up to you.

You don't get extra points for doing it, and it's not a reason for others to do so.

 

[1V53]

Good morning. I've just stumbled upon this forum and registered primarily to join in this debate, but I am sure I will be an active participant on the forum.

I am an ATW guard/conductor. We are in the same boat as drivers but RMT have elected to hold branch meetings to gather views and I understand that there are efforts among reps to put some of the suggestions back to the company ie negotiate round this.

The company say this is the final offer, and the final offer has the commitment to work Sundays. The guards offer is similar to the drivers in percentage money terms.

Many of us would happily take a lower rise and not have this commitment.

The problem is some depots have a very high ratio of Sundays already and cannot cover them by normal means. In other words more Sunday work than the staff want to work in overtime (and remember, this is overtime). Often they get someone who is on an early spare or shift Monday to do a late Sunday and pay them off Monday, that's the only way to cover the work that has been 'chucked in' (ie the guard puts written notice of non availability for the overtime). Obviously this costs them dear so by making us commit to Sundays we would be forced to work unwanted overtime as the current arrangement wouldn't be available.

If they put Sunday as part of the working week they would have to recruit a significant extra amount of staff, but to me that would be the better solution. Otherwise yes it is about money because it's a big commitment and a big change, for which we are being offered approx £600 a year to accept. We wouldn't be able to even book a days leave for a Sunday so basically would be tied in to working if we couldn't find cover, and as they often can only find cover when they move heaven and earth to do it now, and moving heaven and earth won't be an option to us with committed Sundays, it's an issue.

It is easy for people here to judge, and I note one above who says 'I work Sundays and love it' - that's fine, but you also state you are part time Captain Speaking? We work 10-10.5 hour shifts starting very early in the morning and finishing very early in the morning and yes this is part of the job. However it does make Sundays more important to us, and yes there are young men with families who when working late weeks only see their kids on the Sunday.

I'll happily try and answer questions here if people can be civil and polite . I know most are, but some of the posts I've seen are not only ignorant but downright rude!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry can I just add, I do work a lot of Sundays and am happy to do so. I actually do more than I am rostered to do. However I have the ability to chuck in a rostered Sunday when I choose. I do appreciate this sometimes causes problems for the company and they want a better way of ensuring work is covered. However this commitment has not been a separate negotiation, it's been put into the basic pay talks and there is no option to accept a pay rise without it.

We appreciate many haven't had a pay rise. However many others have. Our industry is thriving and we don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a no strings pay rise. For conductors it really isn't about wanting more money as a basic rise. It's about a fair deal on Sundays.

 

[Greenback]

Good morning 1V53.

I travel almost daily between Llanelli and Swansea and have an annual season ticket. Despite this, I am supportive of the right to take action to defend terms and conditions, and for employees to decide for themselves whether the proposed compensation for any changes is acceptable or not.

I have worked a lot of shifts and weekends myself, sometimes through choice and sometimes not. What it boils down to is this; some people, having exercised their choice to work Sundays then seek to deny that choice to others, believing that it should be forced on them. These types of people do not really understand or accept the basic issues, and believe that it is all about greed and political ideology/ They do not seem to see that the reality is that a Sunday off may be the only chance for a break in a line of work comprising of 7 or 8 10 hour days, if I remember correctly how the Valleys roster worked.

 

[TDK]

Good morning 1V53.

I travel almost daily between Llanelli and Swansea and have an annual season ticket. Despite this, I am supportive of the right to take action to defend terms and conditions, and for employees to decide for themselves whether the proposed compensation for any changes is acceptable or not.

I have worked a lot of shifts and weekends myself, sometimes through choice and sometimes not. What it boils down to is this; some people, having exercised their choice to work Sundays then seek to deny that choice to others, believing that it should be forced on them. These types of people do not really understand or accept the basic issues, and believe that it is all about greed and political ideology/ They do not seem to see that the reality is that a Sunday off may be the only chance for a break in a line of work comprising of 7 or 8 10 hour days, if I remember correctly how the Valleys roster worked.

On a personal note strikes within ATW have been brewing for a long time - all they were waiting for was a valid reason - the staff morale has never been good at ATW on a majority basis, if it wasnt the Sundays it would be something else.

 

[1V53]

Yes this is the point Greenback. Also some depots (eg Cardiff Valleys) have only 1 in 8 Sundays and others such as Chester have more than 1 in 3. If I was Valleys I'd probably accept the deal but at Chester I wouldn't. So it's not a simple thing that someone from outside can make an informed snap judgement on.

As for striking, most of my colleagues don't want to strike but we are being pushed into a corner here. There are several ways to solve the Sunday problem but as it stands it's a case of 'do it this way or you won't get a pay rise'. In my book that's called blackmail. Most staff don't respond well to that do they?!

 

[Greenback]

I know from speaking to people within the company that morale is very low and front line staff are unimpressed wth management for variosu reasons. But I also think that the Sunday issue is importnat to a lot of staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes this is the point. Also some depots (eg Cardiff Valleys) have only 1 in 8 Sundays and others such as Chester have more than 1 in 3. If I was Valleys I'd probably accept the deal but at Chester I wouldn't. So it's not a simple thing that someone from outside can make an informed snap judgement on

Indeed. The rosters are very unbalanced at the moment, and even those who don't currently work a lot of Sundays will see the danger of extra ones being introduced to their depot in the future.

 

[CosherB]

I suggest if you hate train staff that much as in your mind we are all greedy good for nothings who don't deserve the pay we get (or don't) that you get the bus or drive?
!

I generally fly, ANG. Note the username!

Just don't whinge when the golden goose is killed through train crew (drivers in particualr for they are well overpaid for the job) trying to squeeze too many eggs out of it.

Believe me, a lot of folk outside the industry are watching rail costs (including the wage bill) with intense interest and the public don't like it (the public vote for politicians, and they make the decisions). You should be aware of how little rocking of the boat it might take to sink it!

But hey, please feel free to ignore me; rock away! I'm not in that particular boat! But I would miss the trains if / when the funding is cut, which is why I post here as I do.

 

[1V53]

I'm not going to argue with you CS, as you are entitled to your opinion. I would however suggest most rail users complain about the under investment in railways - the old rolling stock and insufficient number of seats?

I won't talk for drivers but as a guard yes I earn £24k a year plus overtime if I choose to work rest days and Sundays. I do get some nice easy shifts yes. I also get long 10h30 antisocial hours, dealing with drunks, sick, fights, crying and angry stressed people etc. Getting up at 3am, getting home 3am... It's part of the job and I feel I'm paid fairly for that.

 

[Greenback]

Blaming the costs of the industry on overpayment of rail staff like yourself is a bit of an easy target, but one that is probably very attractive to the current government. Though it would be ironic if they were to focus on 'fat cats' on £25-50k a year whilst ignoring those on £100-150k a year.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm not going to argue with you CS, as you are entitled to your opinion. I would however suggest most rail users complain about the under investment in railways - the old rolling stock and insufficient number of seats?

I won't talk for drivers but as a guard yes I earn £24k a year plus overtime if I choose to work rest days and Sundays. I do get some nice easy shifts yes. I also get long 10h30 antisocial hours, dealing with drunks, sick, fights, crying and angry stressed people etc. Getting up at 3am, getting home 3am... It's part of the job and I feel I'm paid fairly for that.

Very well said!

 

[nedchester]

Staff who work for any 24/7 industry should have a contract that makes them available for all days including Sundays. i.e. Sunday should be part of the working week.

However, I can understand why some staff are annoyed especially if ATW are trying to get them to work Sundays 'on the cheap' by making a committed Sundays agreement.

ATW should make an offer to make Sundays part of the working week. If this means that ATW need to take more people on then so be it. It is madness that the railway operates on a voluntary basis for one of the days a week.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Staff who work for any 24/7 industry should have a contract that makes them available for all days including Sundays. i.e. Sunday should be part of the working week.

However, I can understand why some staff are annoyed especially if ATW are trying to get them to work Sundays 'on the cheap' by making a committed Sundays agreement.

ATW should make an offer to make Sundays part of the working week. If this means that ATW need to take more people on then so be it. It is madness that the railway operates on a voluntary basis for one of the days a week.

Staff in any industry sign a contract, to change that contract considerably (which is the case here) the staff should be compensated to a degree that is acceptable (within reason). I personally don't mind doing Sundays, However if I was forced to do them I would want compensating reasonably well, as Sundays in the rail industry are (for alot of TOC's) our only guaranteed day off, and at the moment if for instance its my daughters birthday etc. I can take it off without praying I can take a days leave or make sure there is adequate cover.

 

[Ivo]

I note the difference between the Valley Lines and Chester depots, on this and the previous page, with interest. However, there is one thing that gets me. Surely this discrepancy would be at least partially solved if the Valley Lines ran more frequently on Sundays? Few systems anywhere in this country have a 15 frequency on many routes on most days, but a 120 on Sundays. Were they all to be improved to an hourly frequency, then not only would the people of South Wales be bettered served, those who work at Chester et al will be able to look at their Canton colleagues with a more respectful stance (given that twice as many will be working Sundays)?

 

[1V53]

I note the difference between the Valley Lines and Chester depots, on this and the previous page, with interest. However, there is one thing that gets me. Surely this discrepancy would be at least partially solved if the Valley Lines ran more frequently on Sundays? Few systems anywhere in this country have a 15 frequency on many routes on most days, but a 120 on Sundays. Were they all to be improved to an hourly frequency, then not only would the people of South Wales be bettered served, those who work at Chester et al will be able to look at their Canton colleagues with a more respectful stance (given that twice as many will be working Sundays)?

I don't look at (for example) Valleys guards with any disrespect - they work the jobs they are given the same as we do. The situation is that we have lots of long distance travellers on Sundays and I am not sure there is the same demand for trains on the Valleys on a Sunday. In the North of the company there tends to be more of a demand for services on Sundays and therefore a higher ratio of Sunday jobs.

As for Sundays being part of the job, I agree that it is crazy that a 24/7 operation doesn't have Sunday as part of the working week. But as has been pointed out, to do that they would need considerably more staff and they don't seem to want to do that. So they want the existing staff, working a 35 hour 4 day week, to cover the Sundays and commit to doing so.

Most of us don't mind working Sundays, that is not the issue. Some of us against this proposal work more than our rostered Sundays. But when push comes to shove at the moment we can throw it in (giving stipulated notice). For a weekday we can book a days leave months in advance. As things stand, we would be committing to Sunday working and effectively unable to plan anything for a Sunday months in advance, as rota's change every few months, so we have no idea what Sundays we will have rostered now, beyond May. So if I have a family reunion or anything in June, I can't even try to get that Sunday off until May as I can't get a colleague to volunteer to cover it as I can't guarantee they won't have a shift that day.

 

[jopsuk]

Management appear to be in a fighting mood.

Also, if I may say so, a positively stupid and self destructive mood?

 

[tirphil]

Management appear to be in a fighting mood.

Also, if I may say so, a positively stupid and self destructive mood?

Wonder how he tries to put out fires........................................................

.....................................................................with petrol?

 

[1V53]

It just shows the standard of some of the management we are trying to negotiate with doesn't it. What an idiot.

 

[CosherB]

Blaming the costs of the industry on overpayment of rail staff like yourself is a bit of an easy target, but one that is probably very attractive to the current government. Though it would be ironic if they were to focus on 'fat cats' on £25-50k a year whilst ignoring those on £100-150k a year.

As I'm sure you're aware, Greenback, these things are often more emotionally than logically driven. The public think "£50k for driving a train? Anyone of moderate intelligence and ability, given the training, could do that job - it's not worth £50k". And of course it's not; it's a temporary false market caused by a shortage of drivers and in time, unions notwithstanding, drivers will enjoy a more realistic wage. The same has happened in aviation when senior captains were on silly money and had unbelievable privaleges. That has now largely gone as the business has got leaner and more efficient despite BALPA's best efforts. The same will happen with rail.

When such workers strike, for whatever reason, it is seen as greed in view of their inflated base pay. Never mind that it is a drop in the ocean compared to other rail operating costs - in this, as in many things, the image the industry projects carries more influence in the media than the fiscal realities, and that can't be ignored.

Who are those on £100 - 150K you refer to? I know folk who earn that, and believe me they really do earn it! They are very smart people who work hard under enormous pressure and take calculated risks. They don't just do a ho hum job and collect a mega salary for it.

 

[Flamingo]

They are very smart people who work hard under enormous pressure and take calculated risks.

Sounds like driving a train.

 

[1V53]

I think that suggesting someone who drives a train, after all the training, rules, standards etc, who has the lives of anything up to 300 people behind them, does a 'hohum' job (I am assuming this means 'unimportant/humdrum/easy'?) is just plain ignorant. I am all for 'each to their own' on opinions but there comes a point you can't just make such ridiculous statements and not be challenged on it.