The "Rail fare increase and related discussions" thread

[maniacmartin]

BBC also published an article linked from their home page on split ticketing today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19217111

 

[Searle]

I look forward to the outcries of 11.2% rises while the "news" story ignores the 1.2% ones. Annual fun during silly season.

Rail commuters face 11% hike in fares after shock rise in inflation, as union warns of £5,000 a year season tickets

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...season-tickets-warns-union.html#ixzz23WsukiD1


Can always count on the DM to do this

 

[SS4]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...season-tickets-warns-union.html#ixzz23WsukiD1


Can always count on the DM to do this

Never mind, work sets you free don't you know

 

[Donny Dave]

Just skim reading the DM article, and it mentions 3 routes where rises can be expected for season ticket holders. They are:

Glasgow - Edinburgh
Brighton - London
Reading - London

Erm, how many trains an hour on those routes? And how do people expect that level of service provision to be paid for?

 

[Deerfold]

Loved this quote from an ATOC spokeswoman...


"To provide someone at a ticket office with every single permutation to get from A to B is simply impractical and would lead to unmanageable queues at stations”

Says it all really..

Even though it's probably true (and I speak as someone who is not generally a fan of ATOC and certainly not a fan of RPI+3% fare rises).

Wonder how many complaints there would be in the first year if they did describe them all from people who didn't catch trains which stopped at the splitting points and had to pay extra?

 

[JohnB57]

DfT could always cancel electrification west of Bristol...
The Welsh Government does not own the rail budget for Wales, DfT does.
The subsidy is a UK one.
WG manages the ATW franchise, but with UK money.

If you look at Scotland, their CP6 rail development plans have been cut back because they don't have the money.

Technically, it's all "UK money" as revenue is collected into one pot then reallocated, so I'm not sure what your point is. If the Welsh Government is able to limit fares increases, the effect in that case seems to be the same as "owning the budget".

There seems to be very little reason for the Welsh and Scottish governments to provide additional (to England) subsidies for rail travel unless there's a political expedient ahead of the independence debate as it results in a reduction in money available for other things. And the point about CP6 is true, but the expectations for rail regeneration north of the border seem to me to be overambitious anyway. Is there really a business case for rebuilding the Waverley route as far as Tweedbank, let alone the whole line for example? Clearly the original bidders thought not.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ah yes, blame the Tories... Not the international financial crisis, increasing energy costs, inefficiently run railway, etc. I very much doubt Labour would be doing any different if they were in charge, but at least their cozy relationship with the unions and press would probably keep things quieter.

I don't see what Boris has to do with it though, the TfL fare rises (which are the only ones he has any control over), are lower.

whether anyone likes it or not the Tories are seen as the Party for the middle class & up, and they do tend to look after the "upper" classes more than the workers (and yes I am a diehard Labour voter). To be honest I am sure Labour would be doing similar and they don't have such a "cozy" relationship with the unions as you may think. They may be partially funded but I can honestly tell you the majority of the unions are not too happy with Labour let alone the Torie ^$&&.

And when the price rises are implemented it means myself and my colleagues have a month of hell (its like we decide the price rises lol)

 

[Pugwash]

Just skim reading the DM article, and it mentions 3 routes where rises can be expected for season ticket holders. They are:

Glasgow - Edinburgh
Brighton - London
Reading - London

Erm, how many trains an hour on those routes? And how do people expect that level of service provision to be paid for?

All three of those routes are probably profitable in their own right.

The problem with the railways is costs, too many private companies needing profit at each stage of the process and inflated staffing costs due to powerful unions and TOC's willing to bend over as they know the cost can be passed on.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Technically, it's all "UK money" as revenue is collected into one pot then reallocated, so I'm not sure what your point is. If the Welsh Government is able to limit fares increases, the effect in that case seems to be the same as "owning the budget".

There seems to be very little reason for the Welsh and Scottish governments to provide additional (to England) subsidies for rail travel unless there's a political expedient ahead of the independence debate as it results in a reduction in money available for other things.

My main point is that if the general rise is RPI+3, and in Wales RPI+1, Welsh passengers are getting away with paying relatively less into the UK kitty.
At some point you would expect this to have an impact on funding for rail in Wales (like cutting services or investment).

If Wales really did have its own rail budget it would have to make decisions on what it could afford.
It's a luxury to grandly say only 1% rise and then still expect the investment, knowing that they don't have to make up the difference.

Scotland is different as it can make these rail decisions for itself (they have their own HLOS etc).

I now see from the BBC Wales site that the WG will not decide its level of increase until "the autumn". Not surprised.

 

[dieselbashdave]

When you consider staff wages, station running costs (gas, leccy, etc), fuel (water, diesel or gamma rays), infrastructure depreciation, upgrades and outlay, and all the other costs that goes into the railway you can see that it's astonishing value for money even with an increase in fares.

 

[monty9120]

yer but cars are getting cheaper to run and so are trains surely.

the railway had alot more staff years ago, they dont need so many to run nowadays

i have been travelling to the midlands for about 3 years now. its getting to the stage where its almost as cheap to jump in the car

it saves alot of messing about as im from north london and i have to go into central london and back out again.

i kind of like to use the train but not when full of screaming kids

i have to pay for my car anyway. the snow hill line doesnt run at 3am unfortunately so i need a car so im paying for that anyway

 

[mallard]

To be honest I am sure Labour would be doing similar and they don't have such a "cozy" relationship with the unions as you may think. They may be partially funded but I can honestly tell you the majority of the unions are not too happy with Labour let alone the Torie ^$&&.

You say the trades unions "partially" fund Labour; the official figures show that over 74% of Labour's funding comes from trades unions. That's easily the majority of their funding; "partially" is understating it a little. The Labour party is effectively part of the trades unions movement.

Also note that the press are keen to find excuses to criticise the Tory government, they know full well that Labour was perfectly happy to let their technically illegal story gathering tactics slide, while the Conservatives commissioned the Leveson enquiry.

All of this adds up to plenty of bad press for the government, deserved or not.

 

[fraser158]

Michael Roberts from ATOC is on Channel 4 News tonight discussing the fare increases. http://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/235389592663117824

 

[Oliver]

You say the trades unions "partially" fund Labour; the official figures show that over 74% of Labour's funding comes from trades unions. That's easily the majority of their funding; "partially" is understating it a little.

Is the NUR a Labour funder these days? I thought they stopped funding the party during the Blair years. Are the back in the tent now?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Deleted (Nothing to do with the thread)

 

[Stats]

Does anyone have a table showing historic percentage rises (so that they can be compared against the relevant inflation at the time?

(not on a "route by route" basis, just the national average)

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06384

 

[WatcherZero]

You say the trades unions "partially" fund Labour; the official figures show that over 74% of Labour's funding comes from trades unions. That's easily the majority of their funding; "partially" is understating it a little. The Labour party is effectively part of the trades unions movement.

Also note that the press are keen to find excuses to criticise the Tory government, they know full well that Labour was perfectly happy to let their technically illegal story gathering tactics slide, while the Conservatives commissioned the Leveson enquiry.

All of this adds up to plenty of bad press for the government, deserved or not.

The figures exclude donations of less than £7,500 which the vast majority of labour party donations would be. But if you want to use the same figures the Conservative party recieved 40% of its funding from large corporations and the average size of donations from individuals was over £20,000 with two individuals give over £180,000.

 

[PHILIPE]

The main reason is the high cost of running the railway, i.e. consultants , lawyers etc., to join all the fragmented bits together. Mc Nulty mentioned this but, of course, the Government doesn,t want to acknowledge this. We know why - political dogma.
This time we have been promised many improvements, electrification etc., but in the past we have been told to pay for improvemenys but they never happen.

 

[LE Greys]

They seem to be blaming inflation for the problem, which according to the BBC is caused by massive increases in air fares and clothing costs. No mention of quantitative easing, though.

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06384

Assuming the graph on Page 3 is reliable, then it's long-distance operators where the prices have been going up quickest. No wonder ticket-splitting is becoming more worthwhile!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The main reason is the high cost of running the railway, i.e. consultants , lawyers etc., to join all the fragmented bits together. Mc Nulty mentioned this but, of course, the Government doesn,t want to acknowledge this. We know why - political dogma.
This time we have been promised many improvements, electrification etc., but in the past we have been told to pay for improvemenys but they never happen.

Even the Transport Minister just acknowledged that in a BBC interview, although she didn't mention exactly what she would do about it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is the NUR a Labour funder these days?

I thought the NUR ceased to exist about twenty years ago when it merged with another Union to form the RMT?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

You say the trades unions "partially" fund Labour; the official figures show that over 74% of Labour's funding comes from trades unions. That's easily the majority of their funding; "partially" is understating it a little. The Labour party is effectively part of the trades unions movement.

The Labour party was founded by Kier Hardy to be the political mouth for the trade union movement.

Also note that the press are keen to find excuses to criticise the Tory government, they know full well that Labour was perfectly happy to let their technically illegal story gathering tactics slide, while the Conservatives commissioned the Leveson enquiry.

All of this adds up to plenty of bad press for the government, deserved or not.

..............
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is the NUR a Labour funder these days? I thought they stopped funding the party during the Blair years. Are the back in the tent now?

The RMT - as the NUR became after bailing out the NUS - hasn't given any money to Labour for a number of years.

 

[Deerfold]

The Labour party was founded by Kier Hardy to be the political mouth for the trade union movement.

Though it's moved somewhat to the right since then (you can argue how much).

 

[PHILIPE]

They seem to be blaming inflation for the problem, which according to the BBC is caused by massive increases in air fares and clothing costs. No mention of quantitative easing, though.



Assuming the graph on Page 3 is reliable, then it's long-distance operators where the prices have been going up quickest. No wonder ticket-splitting is becoming more worthwhile!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even the Transport Minister just acknowledged that in a BBC interview, although she didn't mention exactly what she would do about it.

Absolutely nothing.

 

[Deerfold]

Absolutely nothing.

So this time they won't wait until the rail industry has worked everything out and published it before changing their minds?

 

[Donny Dave]

But then you can travel when and where you please. You can travel - in very many cases - door to door. You won't be bothered by screaming kids, arguing passengers and drunks. In many many cases the journey by car is quicker than that by rail.

Is travelling by car quicker than the train though?

Scunthorpe to basically anywhere is almost always quicker by train, and in my circumstances, with car running costs at £3.35/day (excluding fuel), the price of a ticket is roughly comparable to using the car to a lot of places.

Yes, I do have a lot of flexibilty as to where and when I go, but so does someone with a season ticket. Unless otherwise restricted, a season ticket is valid between the origin and destination on all permitted routes and to/from all intermediate stations. Don't forget you get a hefty discount on an annual season as well compared to buying weekly seasons or anytime returns - Not something a car driver gets even if the do the same round trip every day for a year.

And for your other point, yes, a driver may not be bothered by screaming kids, arguing passengers and drunks (depending on who is in the vehicle with them), but they do have to put up with a lot of people on the roads who seem to think that the laws do not apply to them.

 

[LE Greys]

Is travelling by car quicker than the train though?

Scunthorpe to basically anywhere is almost always quicker by train, and in my circumstances, with car running costs at £3.35/day (excluding fuel), the price of a ticket is roughly comparable to using the car to a lot of places.

Yes, I do have a lot of flexibilty as to where and when I go, but so does someone with a season ticket. Unless otherwise restricted, a season ticket is valid between the origin and destination on all permitted routes and to/from all intermediate stations. Don't forget you get a hefty discount on an annual season as well compared to buying weekly seasons or anytime returns - Not something a car driver gets even if the do the same round trip every day for a year.

And for your other point, yes, a driver may not be bothered by screaming kids, arguing passengers and drunks (depending on who is in the vehicle with them), but they do have to put up with a lot of people on the roads who seem to think that the laws do not apply to them.

Throughout the commuter belt, anyone going to London is almost guaranteed to get there more quickly by rail unless they are very lucky with the traffic. It's probably the same for all the big cities. Anywhere along a main line is quicker by rail as well, it's anything involving connections or cross-country routes where railways fall down. Guess why!

 

[Mojo]

Channel 4 News' 'Fact Check' did an interesting piece on this: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck...ain-operators-the-villains-of-the-piece/11169

 

[osborn99]

I am today travelling from Notingham to London first class for £17... If that goes up by 6% to £18 it'll still be excellent value and I really won't care about the increase at all. Even if it goes up by 11% or more - so what it'll still be good value at £19. OK, that's an advance and 6% on the full FOR is a lot, but these fares are paid by corporate expenses and again it doesn't matter. The people who are hurt are commuters - but as I said they still get a reasonable deal in comparison to the spiralling cost of motoring and I have absolutely no desire to find their commuting through taxation when the lovcation of my workplace doesn't give me the choice of using rail or bus. If you really feel that rail passengers are been shafted and it's all going car drivers way, buy a cheap car - ill bet you soon decide that rail will still offer good value.


Andy

That's good you travel first class, did you get up and see the people standing in the 2nd class?
Did you ask people who were doing the same journey as you if they were happy to pay £55.5 return?
In my situation Chorley to Manchester tpe is always full and you have to stand up. There is a solution Northern but this is a lot slower and runs every hour. Coming home at peak, when you've experienced standing up on a Northern train at 25 degrees then you can come on here and say the prices are fair.

 

[AntoniC]

I`m lucky that my annual season ticket with Merseyrail is due for renewal on 4th September 2012.

The increase for my new ticket is 5.2% (£1152 this year £1092.00 last year), which I`m happy with as I dont drive and need public transport to get to work etc.

 

[tbtc]

Channel 4 News' 'Fact Check' did an interesting piece on this: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck...ain-operators-the-villains-of-the-piece/11169

Well worth reading, I agree (even if the conclusion that Bob Crow is talking rubbish shouldn't surprise everyone...)

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=SN06384

Fantastic, thanks. So, since privatisation the average ticket on Network South East/ Regional Railways has gone up by about 10% in real terms? Kind of puts the "eye watering" / "excessive" / "rip off" comments into a bit of perspective. But I doubt the Daily Mail will be publishing that tomorrow morning...

Interesting that the rise in longer distance travel has been quite so huge - I guess a handful of bargain Advance tickets has hidden some pretty steep rises for normal fares (plus the ever narrowing goal posts of "off peak")