The "Rail fare increase and related discussions" thread

[PR1Berske]

Did you not see my other suggestions for those outside London? Car share, coaches, local buses?

Did you also not see me mention driving to where you can get a bus to the Tube station, which would get around the parking problem.

Did you not see me point out that these alternatives would be inconvenient?

It IS possible to run a reasonable train service with lower fares as can be seen in mainland Europe. And many of these countries are even less in debt than the UK so low rail fares haven't bankrupted them.

For the price of a middle distance season ticket in GB, you can get UNLIMITED travel for some rich Western European countries.

For the price of a chocolate bar you can get across most European cities!

 

[radamfi]

Annual season ticket Reading to London Terminals (not Travelcard) £3,800

Unlimited travel on German trains in a year €3,990 (£3,138)

Unlimited travel on Belgian trains in a year €2,811 (£2,211). Also free travel to work for most public sector and many private sector employees (company pays 80%, government pays 20%).

10 single trips in a year for any distance in Belgium (including peak hour) €76 - that's £6 a trip!

 

[mallard]

Unlimited travel on Belgian trains in a year €2,811 (£2,211). Also free travel to work for most public sector and many private sector employees (company pays 80%, government pays 20%).

10 single trips in a year for any distance in Belgium (including peak hour) €76 - that's £6 a trip!

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the British rail system with the Belgian; we have nearly 5x as many track miles, a similar proportion more stations and over 6x as many passenger-miles (so many more trains)!

Now, Germany does show how a properly managed, nationalised railway can be run... They're slowly nationalising our rail network, for goodness sake!

 

[radamfi]

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the British rail system with the Belgian; we have nearly 5x as many track miles, a similar proportion more stations and over 6x as many passenger-miles (so many more trains)!

Now, Germany does show how a properly managed, nationalised railway can be run... They're slowly nationalising our rail network, for goodness sake!

I deliberately compared a big and a small country to show that the size of the country doesn't really matter. For commuting, and even day trips, most people are going to be travelling less than 50 miles each way per day and that can be done in Belgium, GB or Germany. Yes there are quite a few very long distance commuters in GB but they are still a tiny proportion. But even long distance commuting would be more viable in Germany. For 100 mile+ each way commutes in GB you are looking at serious money, but in Germany it is €3,990 a year.

 

[mallard]

I deliberately compared a big and a small country to show that the size of the country doesn't really matter.

But you showed that it does matter; there's a €1000 difference!

For commuting, most people are going to be travelling less than 50 miles each way per day and that can be done in Belgium, GB or Germany. Yes there are quite a few very long distance commuters in GB but they are still a tiny proportion.

Well, unlimited travel in London costs £2,136.00 per year, a similar amount to the Belgian example you gave. That's for a network that while shorter in track miles, carries more passengers, so is probably reasonably comparable.

Annual unlimited travel in the Liverpool area is £1,152 (includes buses), Manchester £835.00 (rail only, I think; TfGM seems to have recently reorganised their website, rendering the Google results useless), Birmingham £985.00 (including bus and tram), etc. All of these are comparable to those in mainland Europe.

It's the "premium" fares in the South-East that are mainly those that are expensive, as well as those around, but not in, major cities.

 

[radamfi]

But you showed that it does matter; there's a €1000 difference!

OK, it matters a bit! But think how much bigger Germany is than Belgium, yet the annual ticket is only 25% more. And Belgium has a low fares policy across all PT that make even its neighbours seem extortionate, so perhaps the German annual ticket might be even cheaper if they had a similar policy.

Well, unlimited travel in London costs £2,136.00 per year, a similar amount to the Belgian example you gave. That's for a network that while shorter in track miles, carries more passengers, so is probably reasonably comparable.

Annual unlimited travel in the Liverpool area is £1,152 (includes buses), Manchester £835.00 (rail only, I think; TfGM seems to have recently reorganised their website, rendering the Google results useless), Birmingham £985.00 (including bus and tram), etc. All of these are comparable to those in mainland Europe.

It's the "premium" fares in the South-East that are mainly those that are expensive, as well as those around, but not in, major cities.

I'm not entirely happy with comparing with total track miles as the typical commuter is only going to be using a tiny part of the network. It matters not to him that there is a parallel line 5 miles away. Obviously the rail network in London is dense because of the density of population.

For example, most Z1-6 Travelcard holders will be travelling less than 20 miles each way to work. A holder of a networkwide Belgian ticket will be travelling much, much further. If he was only travelling 20 miles each way he would get a normal season ticket which is much cheaper.

I would agree the PTE fares are relatively cheap. Indeed, there is much complaining of the fact on this forum! But most people don't travel very far on them. You can travel quite far in certain circumstances, e.g. Wigan to Manchester Airport, Coventry to Birmingham, but most people holding these tickets will just be travelling to the city centre, which might only be about 10 miles away. Not exactly very far.

What do you mean by "premium" fares in the south-east? By the sounds of it, you are defining any journey from outside the Travelcard area to central London as "premium"!

 

[mallard]

I'm not entirely happy with comparing with total track miles as the typical commuter is only going to be using a tiny part of the network. It matters not to him that there is a parallel line 5 miles away. Obviously the rail network in London is dense because of the density of population.

Neither am I really, that's why I included passenger numbers. Those two figures combined are roughly proportionate to the amount it costs to run the network. While the passenger might not care about parallel routes on a day-to-day basis, they certainly appreciate them when there's disruption!

For example, most Z1-6 Travelcard holders will be travelling less than 20 miles each way to work. A holder of a networkwide Belgian ticket will be travelling much, much further. If he was only travelling 20 miles each way he would get a normal season ticket which is much cheaper.

I would agree the PTE fares are relatively cheap. Indeed, there is much complaining of the fact on this forum! But most people don't travel very far on them. You can travel quite far in certain circumstances, e.g. Wigan to Manchester Airport, Coventry to Birmingham, but most people holding these tickets will just be travelling to the city centre, which might only be about 10 miles away. Not exactly very far.

That's all true, I was just pointing out that while Britian does have some very expensive rail fares, there are also some very reasonable ones out there!

What do you mean by "premium" fares in the south-east? By the sounds of it, you are defining any journey from outside the Travelcard area to central London as "premium"!

Well, the TOCs (and British Rail before them) certainly do. Looking at average wages and house prices in the area, I don't think that's completely unjustified.

 

[furryfeet]

PS. For driving a car, how many forms of tax do you have to pay? The answer is 4. Fuel duty and VAT on fuel. Vehicle excise duty and insurance premium tax (currently 6% for car insurance).

Do not forget another nasty little stealth tax, if you have a photocard licence.
This has to be renewed every 10 years at a cost of at least 20 pounds !

 

[Deerfold]

Do not forget another nasty little stealth tax, if you have a photocard licence.
This has to be renewed every 10 years at a cost of at least 20 pounds !

I'd hardly describe £2 a year as nasty compared with the other costs of motoring.

Presumably at least some of that fee is to cover the admin involved?