The most stupid thing I have seen...

[telstarbox]

On the slammers, wheelchair users used to have to travel in the guard's compartment - not very dignified but the guard would have helped them on and off with the ramp.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Even just asking people to stand clear, and giving them the time to do so, before launching would have been better than what apparently happened here.

I fully agree.

 

[RichmondCommu]

If that is the stupidest thing you have seen on the railway you obviously haven't travelled much!

I think you'll find that Peter travels by train quite a lot! I've commuted into London for give or take the last 27 years and I cannot recall anything more stupid than this, at least nothing that a commuter has done.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If that is the stupidest thing you have seen on the railway you obviously haven't travelled much!

Perhaps I should re-phrase slightly and say it is the stupidest thing I have seen within bounds.

Clearly I have over the years seen an awful lot of stupid things happening with people who are out of bounds and a lot of extreme stupidity with reasoning / logic / routes etc but certainly for actual physical stupidity...

I think you'll find that Peter travels by train quite a lot!

I do; I am typically out and about a minimum of once a fortnight, about 50% of my trips being medium and long distance ones and the other 50% being London area and Home Counties area trips. I travel in excess of 10,000 miles a year - if that seems a bit low bear in mind I don't commute - I live a 5 to 10 minute walk away from work.

 

[al78]

While I am not saying its the best thing he could have done I'm one of these who get a bit fed up of our OTT safety culture we have in the UK these days.

This incident is hardly a case of OTT safety culture. It is rarely, if ever right to take needless risks that could potentially inflict harm on other people should it go wrong. Sorry, but as a regular cyclist who is vulnerable to the idiotic antics of a minority of motorists I have no time for the 'what's the problem no-one got hurt' attitude, as though just because a dumb action had no consequence one time that is all that matters :roll:. It is an unfortunate fact of life that whilst not every dumb action has an undesirable consequence, if the undesirable thing does happen it is often some innocent third party that suffers. Not acceptable IMO in a supposedly civilized society.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm fed up of having to deal with the aftermath of little unconscious acts of stupidity though. The amount of people with injuries ranging from minor cuts and bruises to full blown gashed heads and broken bones after actions ranging from running down stairs to flinging pushchairs off trains forward to yes, one lady who tried to take a corner too fast in her motorised wheelchair and nearly ended up under a train and did require an ambulance is ridiculous.

The 'I'm in charge of my personal safety so to hell with the consequences' mantra doesn't work on the railway because you either end up taking someone else down with you or one of us poor muppets on duty has to pretend we don't think you're a complete fool while wasting our time cleaning up your blood afterward.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I do; I am typically out and about a minimum of once a fortnight, about 50% of my trips being medium and long distance ones and the other 50% being London area and Home Counties area trips. I travel in excess of 10,000 miles a year - if that seems a bit low bear in mind I don't commute - I live a 5 to 10 minute walk away from work.

Oh you lucky thing!

 

[theironroad]

Oh, the drama of this thread. I'm sure the guy who decided to detrain himself in his wheelchair had done it many times before and was well aware of risks to himself and those around him. I wish I was a cartoonist, because the image of people leaping out of the way of a flying wheelchair is precious.

Quite why he should have to wait to be helped and lose his independence is beyond me if he can manage himself.

 

[bb21]

Oh, the drama of this thread. I'm sure the guy who decided to detrain himself in his wheelchair had done it many times before and was well aware of risks to himself and those around him. I wish I was a cartoonist, because the image of people leaping out of the way of a flying wheelchair is precious.

Quite why he should have to wait to be helped and lose his independence is beyond me if he can manage himself.

A little bit of consideration towards others would have made all the difference. Give some warnings first, tell people what you are about to do, one might even find that some people will even lend a hand to help him off the train safely. (Before anyone jumps in, that is not degrading, it is called looking after each other.)

What this has to do with his independence is beyond me. :roll: It is about showing a total lack of regard for other people's safety, and yes, even those in wheelchairs have a responsibility not to endanger others. That is equality.

If the guy had some sort of learning difficulty then I am willing to make some allowances. In that case, risk assessments for him being allowed out by himself may need to be revisited.

 

[jopsuk]

we don't know that he didn't warn people, or ask for his help- all we've got is an anecdote from someone, who might not have been close enough to hear warnings

 

[Clip]

we don't know that he didn't warn people, or ask for his help- all we've got is an anecdote from someone, who might not have been close enough to hear warnings

Very much this. A one sided story is all well and good but there is always another side to it.

Ive also seen this happen a few times and the person doing so has full control on take off and landing its just the in air bit that they don't. And they always gave a warning.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think it'll be deeply unfair if he's charged because he needs a chair, when able bodied people could get away with also jumping off the train. Charging him would be nasty and mean at someone only because they are disabled. Anti-disabled is a serious problem in the UK and my old Mum has faced alot more hassle when travelling as a result. When she's at the far platform at Nottingham there's only me to help her off the train, and to push her all the way to the inconvient lifts, and the ticket barriers are very annoying too. The trains were built as unsuitable for the disabled, the staff never turn up to help, it's embarrassing for wheelchair users being treated as nothing more than luggage.

If I was in this guys situation I'd jump off the train, if someone gets hurt it's their fault. On buses you'd let people off before jamming round the door, but impatient train passengers show no manners to those of lower mobillity, and it's they who should be charged for creating an obstruction.

 

[Domh245]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for discrimination or anything of the sort, but when you are in a wheelchair, surely you have to realise that you have a larger ground area than an able bodied person, and that you are less agile. Therefore, throwing yourself off of a train in a wheelchair is more likely to see you clatter into someone than if you aren't in a chair. An able bodied person can quickly hop out of the way, or go sideways through a narrow gap, something you can't really do in a wheelchair.

 

[Johnuk123]

If I was in this guys situation I'd jump off the train, if someone gets hurt it's their fault. On buses you'd let people off before jamming round the door, but impatient train passengers show no manners to those of lower mobillity, and it's they who should be charged for creating an obstruction.

I think you'll find anyone who leaps into mid-air in a wheelchair and injures someone else cannot claim it's the injured persons fault, in fact to suggest it is stupid.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm loving the scandalised drivel in this thread. We have one anecdote that someone in a wheelchair "nearly clattered almost half a dozen people" and we have everyone piling aboard the Outrage Bus as though it's the worst thing they've ever seen.

IME experienced wheelchair users are in full control of their chair when they bounce it, they know what speed to go at and where- and how- it will land. As for blame, it depends on the situation, just as it does with able-bodied people; if there's no space and the wheelchair user just makes a jump for it anyway then it's their fault if they or someone else gets injured. If there is a big space and someone on the platform wonders into it without paying attention then it's no different to when I accidentally clattered into some gormless tourist getting off the Metro.

And if they were able to take a jump for it then I'd also be questioning where the platform staff were. I have a couple of good friends who are wheelchair users; station assistance is flakey at the best of times, to the extent that one of my friends had a free return trip to Darlington last week after both the TM and the station staff at York "forgot" she was there, despite pre-booking and reserving the wheelchair space on the Voyager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the slammers, wheelchair users used to have to travel in the guard's compartment - not very dignified but the guard would have helped them on and off with the ramp.

In theory.

I'll never forget travelling with a wheelchair user on one of the old slammers to Shipley. The door on the platform side wouldn't open, though the other one would, so we had to go all the way to Skipton and back to get off the train. Top work.

 

[jonty14]

It is quite shocking how many anti disabled people there are on this forum! Most inconsiderate.

 

[Feathers44]

It is quite shocking how many anti disabled people there are on this forum! Most inconsiderate.

I'm actually quite shocked by the 'disabled people can do no wrong' views that are so strongly pushed here. I'd prefer a bit more of a 'people ought to respect others' approach.

As it stands, half of this thread seems to want to discredit one member's opinion on what he saw based on the fact that the poster's assumptions on what must have happened.

I think this has now become a thread batting around people's entrenched views and won't achieve anything further.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

It is quite shocking how many anti disabled people there are on this forum! Most inconsiderate.

It's shocking, but I see inconsiderate behavoir towards my disabled Mum all time on the railways. They are a few who are helpful at stations (the hand lenders are great people), but most just push(or shove) past everyone like a stampede and leave no room for the disabled to move, if these selfish inconsiderate people get in the way and not give room for a wheelchair user to get off the train, and get their feet wheeled over as a result, it's what they deserve for being selfish and not considering the needs of those with reduced mobility.

 

[Feathers44]

It's shocking, but I see inconsiderate behavoir towards my disabled Mum all time on the railways. They are a few who are helpful at stations (the hand lenders are great people), but most just push(or shove) past everyone like a stampede and leave no room for the disabled to move, if these selfish inconsiderate people get in the way and not give room for a wheelchair user to get off the train, and get their feet wheeled over as a result, it's what they deserve for being selfish and not considering the needs of those with reduced mobility.

Sadly, I think you've just demonstrated my point.

If I take what you wrote at face value then if I get shoved into a wheelchair and get injured by an inconsiderate crowd pushing past, it's my fault: Thanks very much for your sympathy...

Come on, there's far more subtleties to all of this than anypone seems prepared to accept. Like it or not, life just isn't this black and white.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I'm actually quite shocked by the 'disabled people can do no wrong' views that are so strongly pushed here. I'd prefer a bit more of a 'people ought to respect others' approach.

As it stands, half of this thread seems to want to discredit one member's opinion on what he saw based on the fact that the poster's assumptions on what must have happened.

I think this is all actually become a thread batting around people's entrenched views and probably won't achieve anything further now.

I never discredited what the OP saw, I'm saying why should someone be charged for doing what everyone else does because of his reduced mobility? I could jump of a train and nearly hurt people too, but would I be charged? No, so why should the wheelchair user be charged just because he's disabled? That is unfair. Wheelchair users can do wrong, but getting off the train independently is never wrong even if everyone else leaves no room and get hurt as a result, it would be an accident.

Edit, it appears some people think the situation ths thread is based on is somehow funny, why?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If a wheelchair user drives at full pelt into a crowd then it is the wheelchair user's fault.

If someone on the platform gormlessly wanders into the path of a wheelchair because they're not paying attention, then it is not the wheelchair user's fault.

If someone on the platform is politely asked to move out of the way of a wheelchair user and they do not do so within a reasonable amount of time, then it is not the fault of the wheelchair user.

If someone in a crowd shoves someone into the path of a wheelchair user then it is the fault of the person doing the shoving.

I'm not entirely sure why this is proving so controversial.

 

[GatwickDepress]

It is quite shocking how many anti disabled people there are on this forum! Most inconsiderate.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

If a wheelchair user drives at full pelt into a crowd then it is the wheelchair user's fault.

If someone on the platform gormlessly wanders into the path of a wheelchair because they're not paying attention, then it is not the wheelchair user's fault.

If someone on the platform is politely asked to move out of the way of a wheelchair user and they do not do so within a reasonable amount of time, then it is not the fault of the wheelchair user.

If someone in a crowd shoves someone into the path of a wheelchair user then it is the fault of the person doing the shoving.

I'm not entirely sure why this is proving so controversial.

Very good points, but do you have to ask for permission to get off a train? The people getting off (regardless of mobility issues) should always be given time and space to get off, by those who are waiting to get on. It's unfair that the disabled are forced to feel like a hindrence on others all the time by needing to ask the inconsiderste to move and not being given the time and space they need.

 

[Antman]

It is quite shocking how many anti disabled people there are on this forum! Most inconsiderate.

I can't say that I've noticed

 

[Pinza-C55]

I'm actually quite shocked by the 'disabled people can do no wrong' views that are so strongly pushed here. I'd prefer a bit more of a 'people ought to respect others' approach.

As it stands, half of this thread seems to want to discredit one member's opinion on what he saw based on the fact that the poster's assumptions on what must have happened.

I think this has now become a thread batting around people's entrenched views and won't achieve anything further.

That always happens. Neil Degrasse Tyson said "If an argument goes on for more than 5 minutes both sides have lost".

 

[bb21]

we don't know that he didn't warn people, or ask for his help- all we've got is an anecdote from someone, who might not have been close enough to hear warnings

If we have to wait till we hear all sides of the story before commenting, online forums may as well not exist. We can only ever go by what we are told. Without the person being identified, it is just commenting on the behaviour/phenomenon. Even if comments are focused on the person, it cannot be against the actutal person because no one knows who he was, except the OP.

Of course it is different if the person is identified and people start hurling abuses at him without knowing the full story.

 

[Radedamer]

What did people in wheelchairs do before ramps and booked assistance became available? Hope for help from the people around them, and if none forthcoming, take the chance and go for it?

Stay at home mostly?

 

[DarloRich]

To play Devil's Advocate here.

Wheelchair user organises assistance with journey involving cross London transfer, All goes well at local station. Advised that there will be someone to assist him at the London end. He positions wheelchair exactly where advised to do so.

Train pulls in. No sign of any assistance. Moreover there are passengers on the platform waiting to board the train. He decides to leave the train without assistance risking injury to self ...

Wrong decision maybe but very understandable.

exactly - perhaps the passenger had no choice but to self unload as the promised assistance didn't materialise. That's not to say it was a sensible idea but perhaps understandable if you place yourself in the wheelchair users shoes.

Instead of just launching themselves off with no warning because the ramp had not turned up and I am pretty sure had the person made a general request to those around, there would have been no shortage of volunteers to help them off. Despite what is often said about people not helping each, I see every day acts of kindness on public transport such as this would be.

You are more generous to London commuters than I am prepared to be!

What this has to do with his independence is beyond me. :roll: It is about showing a total lack of regard for other people's safety, and yes, even those in wheelchairs have a responsibility not to endanger others. That is equality.

If the guy had some sort of learning difficulty then I am willing to make some allowances. In that case, risk assessments for him being allowed out by himself may need to be revisited.

Your argument is that he should simply travel about on the train until someone deigns to unload him or he is able to beg assistance fomr passers by. Many people who find themselves confined to a wheelchair want to demonstrate that they are independent and are not governed by their chair and can lead the same kind of lives as able bodied people.

btw - superbly condescending attitude. I salute you

 

[meridian2]

Completely agree with DarloRich and if there is an abject lack of professionalism,it comes from the side of the railway staff failing to provide a means of alighting from the train. As someone said above, wrong decision but very understandable.

 

[sheff1]

If I was in this guys situation I'd jump off the train, if someone gets hurt it's their fault.

So, someone has got off the train and is walking towards the platform exit and is then injured by a flying wheelchair and it is their fault. Amazing !