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The Lincoln town centre freight issue

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Peter Mugridge

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Goods trains have always been a problem for Lincoln - and indeed vice versa. Long before the Joint Line was built, the original "Loop" or Fen line between Retford and Peterborough via Lincoln and Boston was intended to carry freight traffic, leaving the shorter but more steeply graded "Towns" line via Grantham for passenger services. Even in the 19th century the short distance between the level crossings in the city centre set a maximum length for goods trains, and rendered nugatory Sturrock's "steam tenders" (an early form of articulation, by providing the tender with a set of cylinders and motion to double the tractive effort of a locomotive without an extra crew) - it has to be said the idea was not popular with firemen!

There is no reason it would have been any less suitable for container traffic than any other part of the Joint Line. It was built for heavy freight, as part of the Joint Line, and ran to the south of what was then the built up area, with no level crossings. As recently as the early 70s it still carried a lot of freight - in the early 70s I spent a lot of weekday evenings near the bridge that carried it over the Newark line, watching for exotica from as far afield as Stratford and Longsight depots.

Following on from that thread, is there enough freight through Lincoln that it would be worth getting the crayons out and building a new avoiding line just on the outside of the ring road to the north? Connecting to both directions at either end to cover all possible routings?

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35B

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Following on from that thread, is there enough freight through Lincoln that it would be worth getting the crayons out and building a new avoiding line just on the outside of the ring road to the north? Connecting to both directions at either end to cover all possible routings?

View attachment 200016
What that map does not show is the local topography. The Northern Bypass is at the level of (and above) that of the cathedral, where the slope is a steep scarp slope (you really feel it driving north on the A46 from A57 to A15, or from the Washingborough roundabout to the Wragby Road roundabout). If the traffic were really sufficient to require an avoiding line, it would undoubtedly be cheaper and easier to restore the old avoiding line.


While I regret closure of the avoiding line, the city centre impact is significantly less than it used to be following building of the Brayford bridge (mid-90s) and road improvements on Tentercroft Street (south side of Central station). Reinstatement of the footbridge on the High St level crossing also helps significantly.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Ah, yes - you're right in that it's very difficult to get the topography from Google Maps...
 

Welly

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:D Daftest crayon I have seen! There was a proposal to build a railway tunnel under Lincoln by the Lancaster Derbyshire and East Coast Railway for a new coal flow line to a proposed coal export dock at Sutton on Sea. Great Central railway put paid to this idea by building Immingham docks.
 

Pigeon

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Ah, yes - you're right in that it's very difficult to get the topography from Google Maps...

Well, Google Maps is rubbish.

streetmap.co.uk has proper Ordnance Survey 1:25000 and 1:50000 maps, with contour lines and all the other usual OS detail and clarity. So for instance here (if the forum software doesn't mangle the link) we can clearly see the ring road gaining 60m in elevation over a couple of km by means of a dirty great cutting through the edge of a sharp escarpment.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map/idld...d&searchp=ids&dn=819&ax=496407&ay=373540&lm=0
 

trentside

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While I regret closure of the avoiding line, the city centre impact is significantly less than it used to be following building of the Brayford bridge (mid-90s) and road improvements on Tentercroft Street (south side of Central station). Reinstatement of the footbridge on the High St level crossing also helps significantly.

The Tenetecroft Street link road really has been a game changer. Rerouting the traffic via Pelham Bridge away from the High Street does genuinely seem to have helped traffic flow.

The footbridges have also made a difference, at least to those who can be bothered to use them. Some would of course prefer to wait so they can moan about the trains.
 

trentside

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It’s also worth noting the reduction of traffic from Immingham through Lincoln. Traffic is non-existant now bar a couple of oil trains to Humber refinery. If that line had also still been busy alongside the GNGE traffic I think an avoiding line would’ve been a good proposal, but without it I genuinely don’t think there’s much of an issue.
 

zwk500

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Following on from that thread, is there enough freight through Lincoln that it would be worth getting the crayons out and building a new avoiding line just on the outside of the ring road to the north? Connecting to both directions at either end to cover all possible routings?
Given the majority of the traffic is from Peterborough to Doncaster, I suspect you'd get more value from just putting in regular dynamic loops between Grantham and Retford.
 

Peter Mugridge

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It’s also worth noting the reduction of traffic from Immingham through Lincoln. Traffic is non-existant now bar a couple of oil trains to Humber refinery. If that line had also still been busy alongside the GNGE traffic I think an avoiding line would’ve been a good proposal, but without it I genuinely don’t think there’s much of an issue.
What gave me the idea was the multiple comments on the other thread moaning about the freight at the level crossings in Lincoln!


Given the majority of the traffic is from Peterborough to Doncaster, I suspect you'd get more value from just putting in regular dynamic loops between Grantham and Retford.
I'd personally suggest the ECML should be four tracked at least as far as Doncaster, if not York...


If the traffic were really sufficient to require an avoiding line, it would undoubtedly be cheaper and easier to restore the old avoiding line.
...which would be my ideal solution, but with the other thread pointing out it's been mostly built on, it would probably never even get near the planning stage these days would it? Too much risk to the local political backsides?
 

35B

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...which would be my ideal solution, but with the other thread pointing out it's been mostly built on, it would probably never even get near the planning stage these days would it? Too much risk to the local political backsides?
I think if it were really necessary, it would be worth Network Rail's while to try to push that through. The mitigation for the level crossings means that it's a lot less necessary than it used to be.
 

zwk500

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I think if it were really necessary, it would be worth Network Rail's while to try to push that through. The mitigation for the level crossings means that it's a lot less necessary than it used to be.
The course of the line has been flattened, NR would never get permission to carve a swathe through a city like that. Thumbnails attached of the approximate path. The houses are at road level, the railway would need elevating by 5m+ to gain highway clearnace.
 

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35B

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The course of the line has been flattened, NR would never get permission to carve a swathe through a city like that. Thumbnails attached of the approximate path. The houses are at road level, the railway would need elevating by 5m+ to gain highway clearnace.
Which is why I observe that the need is a lot less given other changes in Lincoln over the last 30 years
 

norbitonflyer

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The topography to the south is just as difficult - Lincoln is where it is because of the gap created by the River Witham in the escarpment, and the gap is more or less entuirely built up. One possibility does exist, which is to use the trackbed of the old Grantham line. This passed under the Avoiding Line south east of the city centre, and then ran along the southern edge of the Gap before turning south to follow the bottom of the escarpment, and as far as I can see from Google Earth is more or less intact all the way to Honington (where it jouined the Sleaford to Grantham line), except for a small development in Waddington.

At Waddington it crosses the route of the North Hykeham Relief Road (which will fill the gap in outer ring road and on which actual work starts next week), and one might envisage a route following that and the existing A46 western bypass to where it crosses the Newark line, where a connection could be made to run back to Bouitham and rejoin the Joint Line.
 

norbitonflyer

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What is the problem that this would solve?
The level crossings in the centre of Lincoln. Even now there are only two road bridges across the railway within the city's boundaries, and one of them is getting quite old and needs a lot of TLC.

Note - the thread title refers to the "town centre". Lincoln has been a city since at least 1072.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Tenetecroft Street link road really has been a game changer. Rerouting the traffic via Pelham Bridge away from the High Street does genuinely seem to have helped traffic flow.

The footbridges have also made a difference, at least to those who can be bothered to use them. Some would of course prefer to wait so they can moan about the trains.
Tentercroft Street has gone from being a cul de sac to the main east-west route across the City - part of the A57 no less.
The road layout at the eastern end is awkward though, as any traffic from Tentercroft Street heading for the bridge has to cross over traffic going the other way at a set of traffic lights.

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SynthD

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How would the city suffer less with the freight avoiding the centre? Today, in the 7-8am hour, there were 10 passenger trains, 1 freight train and 2 unused freight paths. Even if the freight train did require the crossing to be closed for it alone, the crossing was closed for a long time for passenger trains.
 

GB

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The level crossings in the centre of Lincoln. Even now there are only two road bridges across the railway within the city's boundaries, and one of them is getting quite old and needs a lot of TLC.

Note - the thread title refers to the "town centre". Lincoln has been a city since at least 1072.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Tentercroft Street has gone from being a cul de sac to the main east-west route across the City - part of the A57 no less.
The road layout at the eastern end is awkward though, as any traffic from Tentercroft Street heading for the bridge has to cross over traffic going the other way at a set of traffic lights.

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Can't see how any of this justifies spending what would be £100s of millions on an avoiding line. What is the problem with the level crossing in the centre of Lincoln and what assessment has been made about a bridge needing a lot of attention? There is a foot bridge with lifts which most people can use at the level crossing. Might be a bit awkward for cycles but again that doesn't justify the significant associated costs of a new line.
 

norbitonflyer

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How would the city suffer less with the freight avoiding the centre? Today, in the 7-8am hour, there were 10 passenger trains, 1 freight train and 2 unused freight paths. Even if the freight train did require the crossing to be closed for it alone, the crossing was closed for a long time for passenger trains.
Yesterday there were 34 actual freight movements, with a maximum of five in one hour in mid-afternoon (1515-1615).

And freight trains take a lot longer to cross the road than a 2-coach Sprinter, or even a 5-coach Azuma, which at least have some benefit for the city. .
 

35B

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How would the city suffer less with the freight avoiding the centre? Today, in the 7-8am hour, there were 10 passenger trains, 1 freight train and 2 unused freight paths. Even if the freight train did require the crossing to be closed for it alone, the crossing was closed for a long time for passenger trains.
The issue in the city centre is the length of time that the crossing gates are shut, and the effect that has. There have been occasions when an oil train has failed across both the High St and Brayford crossings (they're only a couple of hundred yards apart), which jammed up the entire city.
Can't see how any of this justifies spending what would be £100s of millions on an avoiding line. What is the problem with the level crossing in the centre of Lincoln and what assessment has been made about a bridge needing a lot of attention? There is a foot bridge with lifts which most people can use at the level crossing. Might be a bit awkward for cycles but again that doesn't justify the significant associated costs of a new line.
Given the changes noted above, the case is probably weakened by the other changes to the road layout.

However, the bridge referred to as needing work is not a pedestrian bridge but Pelham Bridge (main road east of Central station). It is of a certain age, and gets a lot more traffic than it was built for. That was built in 1957 and was the first road bridge over the railway within the city, which replaced the Durham Ox level crossing which had to cross the eastern exits of both St Marks and Central. If Pelham Bridge were to be shut, the focus would immediately be back on the High Street level crossing and the impact of the railway on the city come under intense focus.
 

Bald Rick

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The level crossings in the centre of Lincoln. Even now there are only two road bridges across the railway within the city's boundaries, and one of them is getting quite old and needs a lot of TLC.

It would be far easier and cheaper, and better for society to just close the crossings.
 

35B

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It would be far easier and cheaper, and better for society to just close the crossings.
Really? That presumes that the interest of the railway is identical to the interest of society.

The reality is that much of the need for the crossings has been removed by redesigning the road layout. That's allowed the High Street crossing to become pedestrian only, while Brayford Wharf is now one way and provides an exit to the north side of the city for traffic coming out of the St Marks/Tritton Road areas. Forcing all of that traffic to cross Pelham Bridge or Brayford bridge would impact the wider (and busy) flows around the city. And while it would be convenient to the railway to eliminate the pedestrian crossing, I hardly think that it is "better for society" to remove the ability for anyone to cross without ascending and descending 3 floors
 

SynthD

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I hardly think that it is "better for society" to remove the ability for anyone to cross without ascending and descending 3 floors
There is already one pair of lifts, adding more would fit the goal of permanent connectivity, no matter the type of train. Brayford Wharf and Canwick Road have stairs without lifts, where else needs them?
 

35B

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There is already one pair of lifts, adding more would fit the goal of permanent connectivity, no matter the type of train. Brayford Wharf and Canwick Road have stairs without lifts, where else needs them?
And when lifts fail or need maintenance? The point about the High St crossing, which makes it unlike most, is that it is the primary pedestrian route through the city centre. Closing that level route outright would benefit the railway, but come at a wider social cost - not necessarily addressed by the provision of lifts.

Going from "does the remaining level crossing impact require an avoiding line" to "we should close the level crossings permanently" is quite the stretch
 

Bald Rick

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Really? That presumes that the interest of the railway is identical to the interest of society.

I mean compared to spending several hundred million poinds o a new railway around Lincoln.
 
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