The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[JamesT]

Can someone explain to me what a club from Israel a country in Asia is even doing in a UEFA (European Union of Football Associations) competition, seems most irregular.

Because various Muslim and Arab countries voted to exclude them from the Asian confederation. It's a little difficult to play matches against countries that have tried to wipe you out and refuse to recognise your existence.

 

[m0ffy]

As far as I can tell, previous bans of away supporters have been due to the ill-behaviour of said fans. Whereas this has been reported as being to protect the away fans from the locals. Do you have any examples where that has been the case?

Eintracht Frankfurt fans have been banned from Napoli for their safety.

 

[Topological]

Eintracht Frankfurt fans have been banned from Napoli for their safety.

Do you have an article on that?

Are you sure that was not related to Napoli?

Because this is not related to Aston Villa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

If you re-read my (admittedly, poorly worded) post, you’ll notice I have made two separate points:

1. It is not unusual to ban away supporters if their safety cannot be guaranteed.

2. The nationality of the team/fans is the only reason there has been interference from central government. We haven’t seen similar uproar resulting from previous bans.

And I didn’t accuse you of having any links to any nation.

You said that we needed to scrutinise the links between politicians and Israel.

Now either that was an irrelevant point that appeared in your post for no reason at all, or it was a deliberate attempt to link Macabi Tel Aviv's visit to Aston Villa with the Israeli state. You were implying that politicians were calling into question the ban because of links to the Israeli state. Whether that is, or is not, the reason for interferrence by politicians it is still only related to politicians and Israel.

The decision on banning Macabi Tel Aviv fans should not have been taken and therefore should not be there to be interferred with.

 

[BAFRA77]

The Naples chief of police justified the decision to ban Frankfurt fans from travelling by citing "the high risks to public order and safety", while Ajax said the Marseille authorities had told them that fans would not be allowed "into the city or the stadium on grounds of public safety and security".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

https://supersport.com/athletics/ue...ted-request-to-move-napoli-game-after-fan-ban

Uefa has turned down Eintracht Frankfurt's bid to relocate their Champions League clash with Napoli to a neutral venue after the German side's fans were banned from attending by local authorities, the Bundesliga club said on Friday.

The group-stage game will proceed as scheduled on 4 November without Frankfurt supporters after the Prefect of Naples issued an order prohibiting Napoli from selling approximately 2 500 tickets to travelling fans.

Frankfurt had submitted a request to Uefa, European soccer's governing body, to either move the game to a neutral venue or hold it behind closed doors, citing "safety and organisational deficiencies" at Napoli's stadium.

"The entirely different approaches from participating countries and national associations to high-risk matches... has now become a real problem for European fan culture and the integrity of European club competitions," the club's board member Philipp Reschke said in a statement.

"It's unacceptable that in most places, away fans are welcomed as a matter of course despite major challenges, while in others... away supporters are simply excluded by authorities in spite of identical circumstances and risks."

Frankfurt's complaints highlight a broader trend, with the club noting there have been 15 cases of official away fan bans in Uefa competitions since their supporters were first prohibited from Naples in 2023.

 

[Topological]

The Naples chief of police justified the decision to ban Frankfurt fans from travelling by citing "the high risks to public order and safety", while Ajax said the Marseille authorities had told them that fans would not be allowed "into the city or the stadium on grounds of public safety and security".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

https://supersport.com/athletics/ue...ted-request-to-move-napoli-game-after-fan-ban

Something for UEFA to sort out there.

But the suggestion is that it is the behaviour of Napoli fans - Napoli should be banned from UEFA competitions if that is an issue.

In this case the extension would be that it was Aston Villa fans that were the problem - Aston Villa should be banned from UEFA competitions if that is the case.

It looks like UEFA are seeing some big issues monitoring their competitions and need to act so that the guilty parties are not part of the competition. Away supporters should be safe travelling to any football club.

Either we are advocating from Aston Villa joining the list of teams to expel, or we are acknowledging that this decision is not about Aston Villa Football Club, or Macabi Tel Aviv Football Club.

 

[brad465]

If the away fans are allowed to travel to this game after all and we get disorder like that seen in the derby over the weekend, the government will, rightly or wrongly, be receiving a lot of blame, as they will have been seen to have intervened against the advice/decisions of those on the ground and led to preventable disorder. The blame though can't come from the Tories or Reform, or any other parties who've also demanded the ban be overturned, because they will be hypocrites if they do.

 

[Gloster]

I generally keep out of matters concerning football or the Middle East, but is there a chicken an egg situation here? Are the Maccabi supporters being banned because they have a reputation for violence and there is a fear that some of them may go beyond their normal behaviour and attack non-footballing Aston residents, possibly targeting those of a certain appearance, or is there a fear that normally reasonably well-behaved (by football standards) Aston Villa fans and locals will attack the Maccabi fans? In the first case it seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable decision to ban the Maccabi fans. The second is a touch more questionable, but there comes a point where the common good (maintaining peace in Aston) outweighs the individual rights (of Maccabi supporters to see the match). However, the second does pre-suppose that all the Maccabi fans will behave in a peaceful manner throughout, whatever the provocation.

 

[AlterEgo]

There's obviously more than one thing which is true at once with the Maccabi story.

- Maccabi fans have a reputation for vile Israeli ultranationalism and anti-Muslim chanting as well as being serially violent
- Birmingham is a very Muslim city
- Aston Villa even told their stewards they could give this one a miss if they had "concerns" (an interesting euphemism, do tell us more, Villa!)
- There is a lot of pro-Gaza and anti-Israeli sentiment and also, of course, some real, distilled antisemitism in Birmingham
- The risk of violence, started by or both factions, is really not acceptable and frankly I think someone would have been killed.

 

[brad465]

In a notable twist, Maccabi Tel Aviv appear to have decided it's not worth the hassle and are not accepting any ticket allocation for the game, even if the ban is overturned:

Maccabi Tel Aviv will not accept Aston Villa Europa League tickets

Israeli club Maccabi Tel Aviv say they will not accept any ticket allocation from Aston Villa should the decision to ban their supporters from next month's Europa League match be overturned.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israeli club Maccabi Tel Aviv say they will not accept any ticket allocation from Aston Villa should the decision to ban their supporters from next month's Europa League match be overturned.

Birmingham's Safety Advisory Group (SAG) - the body responsible for issuing safety certificates for matches - last week informed Villa no travelling fans would be permitted at the match in the city.

The decision was widely condemned, with Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy pledging that the government will "find the resources" to allow Maccabi fans to attend earlier on Monday.

But Maccabi Tel Aviv now say supporters will not travel for safety reasons - that "a toxic atmosphere has been created which makes the safety of our fans wishing to attend very much in doubt".

A club statement said, external: "The wellbeing and safety of our fans is paramount, and from hard lessons learned we have taken the decision to decline any allocation offered on behalf of away fans and our decision should be understood in that context.

"We hope that circumstances will change and look forward to being able to play in Birmingham in a sporting environment in the near future."

"We are deeply saddened Maccabi Tel Aviv have turned down their away fan allocation but we respect their right to do so," a government spokesperson said.

They added it was "completely unacceptable" that the match has been "weaponised to stoke violence and fear by those who seek to divide us".

"The government has been working around the clock to defend a basic principle - that football fans should be able to enjoy a game without fear of intimidation or violence."

On Thursday, West Midlands Police said it had classified the fixture as "high risk" based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including "violent clashes and hate crime offences" between Ajax and Maccabi Tel Aviv fans before a match in Amsterdam, in November 2024.

Nandy said ministers were working together to fund any necessary policing operation to allow away fans to attend, and the SAG would review the decision if West Midlands Police changed its risk assessment.

Nandy said the matter was wider than matchday security, adding it came "against the backdrop of rising antisemitism here and across the world, and an attack on a synagogue in Manchester in which two innocent men were killed".

On Sunday, the Israeli Premier League derby between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Hapoel Tel Aviv was cancelled before kick-off, after what police described as "public disorder and violent riots".

Maccabi say the decision to call that game off was not down to their supporters and thanked the UK government for its efforts.

They said: "We believe that football should be about bringing people together not driving them apart.

"Our fans regularly travel all over Europe without incident and to suggest that the reason our fans cannot be allowed to travel is due to their behaviour is an attempt to distort reality.

"We acknowledge the efforts of the UK government and police to ensure both sets of fans can attend the match safely, and are grateful for the messages of support from across the footballing community."

Aston Villa previously told their matchday stewards they did not have to work at the Maccabi Tel Aviv fixture, saying they understood some "may have concerns".

Following Thursday's announcement by the club about the impending fixture, Prime Minister Keir Starmer called the move "wrong" and said: "We will not tolerate antisemitism on our streets."

 

[KevinBrum12]

In a notable twist, Maccabi Tel Aviv appear to have decided it's not worth the hassle and are not accepting any ticket allocation for the game, even if the ban is overturned:

Maccabi Tel Aviv will not accept Aston Villa Europa League tickets

Israeli club Maccabi Tel Aviv say they will not accept any ticket allocation from Aston Villa should the decision to ban their supporters from next month's Europa League match be overturned.

www.bbc.co.uk

I bet Lisa Nandy wished she'd have known that before she stood up in the Commons yesterday afternoon.

Indeed, in the event Lucy Powell wins the Labour Deputy Leadership contest Nandy will be relegated to the back benches. Starmer will want Powell in the tent rather than outside lobbing bucketloads in, but he won't want to reward Powell with a major brief like Health.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Starmer has, yet again, showed his complete lack of political nous in wading into this.

Maccabi Tel Aviv are notorious for being a club supported by ultra-nationalist racist thugs. That's not to say all, or even a majority of, Maccabi fans are ultra-nationalist racist thugs. They are not the only club in this position and they are not the only club who face away restrictions because of this. Indeed they are not even the first away side banned from Villa Park.

We saw in Amsterdam last year how they would deliberately provoke and antagonise the local population.

Are the Maccabi supporters being banned because they have a reputation for violence and there is a fear that some of them may go beyond their normal behaviour and attack non-footballing Aston residents, possibly targeting those of a certain appearance, or is there a fear that normally reasonably well-behaved (by football standards) Aston Villa fans and locals will attack the Maccabi fans?

It's a bit of both, as always.

Maccabi fans are notorious. There is evidence from Amsterdam in 2024 that they will deliberately go and goad and provoke the local population. In Amsterdam a minority of them took to marching through areas with a high Muslim population chanting 'death to Arabs' and gloating that there were no children in Gaza because they'd all been killed. They attacked a Muslim taxi driver.

The local population were duly provoked and so the local population came out in force to retaliate. The retaliation had a significant public order impact, far bigger than the original provocation, as is usually the way.

In Amsterdam the retaliation was out of all proportion to the initial provocation and was completely unacceptable. But the simplest way of preventing the retaliation is to prevent the provocation. That means keeping Maccabi fans away.

 

[D6130]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the shenanigans of the Maccabi "fans" in Udine, Italy, last week.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the shenanigans of the Maccabi "fans" in Udine, Italy, last week.

I don't think they played there last week, can you share some more details?

 

[JamesT]

Starmer has, yet again, showed his complete lack of political nous in wading into this.

Maccabi Tel Aviv are notorious for being a club supported by ultra-nationalist racist thugs. That's not to say all, or even a majority of, Maccabi fans are ultra-nationalist racist thugs. They are not the only club in this position and they are not the only club who face away restrictions because of this. Indeed they are not even the first away side banned from Villa Park.

We saw in Amsterdam last year how they would deliberately provoke and antagonise the local population.


It's a bit of both, as always.

Maccabi fans are notorious. There is evidence from Amsterdam in 2024 that they will deliberately go and goad and provoke the local population. In Amsterdam a minority of them took to marching through areas with a high Muslim population chanting 'death to Arabs' and gloating that there were no children in Gaza because they'd all been killed. They attacked a Muslim taxi driver.

The local population were duly provoked and so the local population came out in force to retaliate. The retaliation had a significant public order impact, far bigger than the original provocation, as is usually the way.

In Amsterdam the retaliation was out of all proportion to the initial provocation and was completely unacceptable. But the simplest way of preventing the retaliation is to prevent the provocation. That means keeping Maccabi fans away.

The Maccabi fans are unpleasant, but there is clear evidence that in the days before the match some of the pro-Palestine side were organising to go on a 'Jew-hunt'. This was not merely a response to provocation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Maccabi fans are unpleasant, but there is clear evidence that in the days before the match some of the pro-Palestine side were organising to go on a 'Jew-hunt'. This was not merely a response to provocation.

I think it's fair to say that neither side of that conflict has graced itself particularly, and this is yet another example. Perhaps it might have been more balanced to play the match behind closed doors rather than only shut one set of fans out, though. At least that way it would be a fair competition - a team being cheered on is likely to be more motivated than one with no fans present.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I think it's fair to say that neither side of that conflict has graced itself particularly, and this is yet another example. Perhaps it might have been more balanced to play the match behind closed doors rather than only shut one set of fans out, though. At least that way it would be a fair competition - a team being cheered on is likely to be more motivated than one with no fans present.

That would unfairly penalise the Villa fans. The safety concern is not around Villa supporters targeting the Maccabi fans but others doing so, as well if course about concerns of Maccabi fans, or some of them at least, provoking trouble.

If this was a fixture where there was a history of trouble between the rival supporters then yes, behind closed doors would be appropriate.

 

[BAFRA77]

I don't think they played there last week, can you share some more details?

This would have been the World Cup Qualifier between Italy and Israel that was played in Udine

 

[D6130]

This would have been the World Cup Qualifier between Italy and Israel that was played in Udine

Correct....last Tuesday, 14th October. A large contingent of Maccabi fans were expected....and arrived. All police leave in the Friuli region was cancelled, as local pro-Gaza/Palestine activists planned to march on the stadium. As a result of the inevitable clashes, many people - including police and protesters - were injured, cars overturned and torched and shop windows smashed.

 

[JamesT]

Correct....last Tuesday, 14th October. A large contingent of Maccabi fans were expected....and arrived. All police leave in the Friuli region was cancelled, as local pro-Gaza/Palestine activists planned to march on the stadium. As a result of the inevitable clashes, many people - including police and protesters - were injured, cars overturned and torched and shop windows smashed.

Though having looked at several news reports, they all say the clashes were between the protest marchers and the police. There’s no mention of any violence involving the Israel supporters.

 

[Topological]

Is any action being applied to Italy for the incident in Udine?

Indeed if Maccabi are expected to be responsible for Israel then presumably an Italian club gets the punishment for the Udine? I assume Udinese?

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed if Maccabi are expected to be responsible for Israel

Are they?

 

[SteveP29]

As far as I can tell, previous bans of away supporters have been due to the ill-behaviour of said fans. Whereas this has been reported as being to protect the away fans from the locals. Do you have any examples where that has been the case?

Yeah, the 1995/96 season, away fans were banned from the Tyne/ Wear derby for their own safety

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

Because various Muslim and Arab countries voted to exclude them from the Asian confederation. It's a little difficult to play matches against countries that have tried to wipe you out and refuse to recognise your existence.

Is there an Asian Song Contest that they've been excluded from too then?
Would that be your reasoning behind why they take part in Eurovision?

The Naples chief of police justified the decision to ban Frankfurt fans from travelling by citing "the high risks to public order and safety", while Ajax said the Marseille authorities had told them that fans would not be allowed "into the city or the stadium on grounds of public safety and security".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2025 ==

https://supersport.com/athletics/ue...ted-request-to-move-napoli-game-after-fan-ban

I'm not going, but this is the advice we've been given re our Champions League trip to Marseille:
https://www.newcastleunited.com/en/...ion-for-supporters-travel-olympique-marseille

TRAVEL TO THE STADIUM

Newcastle United supporters travelling to Marseille for matchday have been allocated a designated meeting point at Place de la Joliette. From this location, mandatory Metro travel will be required via Joliette Station to reach the stadium. No exemptions will be granted for supporters, except for wheelchair users. Wheelchair users will be contacted directly by Newcastle United following their ticket purchase to discuss suitable alternative arrangements.

An official matchday ticket must be produced to gain access to the Metro to the stadium. These measures are imposed and delivered by the relevant local authorities in Marseille for supporter safety and security

Bold type is bold in the article, my emphasis is italic and underlined.

 

[JamesT]

Is there an Asian Song Contest that they've been excluded from too then?
Would that be your reasoning behind why they take part in Eurovision?

Well, if the surrounding countries refuse to play, what other confederation would you suggest? There was already a UEFA-affiliated association geographically in Asia when they joined.

Taking part in Eurovision requires a country to be a member of the European Broadcasting Union, which in turn has a defined European Broadcasting Area that includes the North African countries that border the Mediterranean and as far across as Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
Morocco has taken part in Eurovision in the past. Tunisia and Lebanon have both entered and then withdrawn without competing. There's been an Israeli member of the EBU since 1957, before the Asia-Pacific BU was even formed. I would hazard a guess that given the roots of many Israelis, they may have more in common culturally with Europe than other continents.

 

[Topological]

Are they?

Not in my mind. Hence, what happens with Israel is tangential.

However, the whole set of UK teams did get banned after Heysel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

Well, if the surrounding countries refuse to play, what other confederation would you suggest? There was already a UEFA-affiliated association geographically in Asia when they joined.

Taking part in Eurovision requires a country to be a member of the European Broadcasting Union, which in turn has a defined European Broadcasting Area that includes the North African countries that border the Mediterranean and as far across as Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
Morocco has taken part in Eurovision in the past. Tunisia and Lebanon have both entered and then withdrawn without competing. There's been an Israeli member of the EBU since 1957, before the Asia-Pacific BU was even formed. I would hazard a guess that given the roots of many Israelis, they may have more in common culturally with Europe than other continents.

I suspect the origin of Israel also plays a part here.

Maybe with all the power of Israel (allegedly) just offer them an automatic place in the World Cup alongside USA and Saudi. That will save any of this.

 

[brad465]

Not in my mind. Hence, what happens with Israel is tangential.

However, the whole set of UK teams did get banned after Heysel.

Liverpool also got banned an additional year as they were seen as the most responsible club.

I didn't watch Nandy's statement to parliament, but apparently her saying this ban was unprecedented is a case of misleading parliament, which would mean she'd have to correct the record or face investigation, as lying/misleading parliament while speaking in parliament is a very serious offence (though not quite as serious as perjury).

 

[AlterEgo]

Not in my mind. Hence, what happens with Israel is tangential.

However, the whole set of UK teams did get banned after Heysel.

Only English teams were banned, and the reason wasn't just Heysel but the endemic hooliganism that came with all travelling English teams which culminated in Heysel. Leeds had been banned in 1975 for rioting during the European Cup Final, Manchester United got expelled (and later reinstated) from the European Cup Winners' Cup in 1977 after their fans rioted in Saint Etienne.

Liverpool will always have responsibility for the events of Heysel but the fact is, if it hadn't happened then an English club would have been involved in some sort of atrocity at some point.

Maccabi aren't being held responsible for "Israel", in fact it's not really been a factor in the decision making. There is a lot going on with the issue on all sides and a lot of it has been opaque (big unanswered question: why were Villa's own safety stewards told they can have a free absence because Maccabi - supposedly a very dangerous group of fans which needed stewarding - were coming?).

 

[75A]

Well, if the surrounding countries refuse to play, what other confederation would you suggest? There was already a UEFA-affiliated association geographically in Asia when they joined.

Taking part in Eurovision requires a country to be a member of the European Broadcasting Union, which in turn has a defined European Broadcasting Area that includes the North African countries that border the Mediterranean and as far across as Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
Morocco has taken part in Eurovision in the past. Tunisia and Lebanon have both entered and then withdrawn without competing. There's been an Israeli member of the EBU since 1957, before the Asia-Pacific BU was even formed. I would hazard a guess that given the roots of many Israelis, they may have more in common culturally with Europe than other continents.

So is Australia in the European Broadcasting Area?

 

[Tetchytyke]

big unanswered question: why were Villa's own safety stewards told they can have a free absence because Maccabi - supposedly a very dangerous group of fans which needed stewarding - were coming?

Not uncommon. Stewards are often given the option of excluding themselves from stewarding other high risk events, such as local derbies.

Bear in mind the stewards are usually not on anything more than minimum wage. They’re inconsequential and treated and paid accordingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

Yeah, the 1995/96 season, away fans were banned from the Tyne/ Wear derby for their own safety

And away fans have been banned from Old Firm derbies ever since Covid.

 

[SargeNpton]

Should this football fans discussion be moved to its own thread?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Incredible collapse of the Labour vote in Caerphilly last night, clearly demonstrating just how loathed Labour are at the moment. Of note however is the Tory vote of 2%. The two main players in British politics mustering just 13% of the vote between them. Perhaps a small sign that the days of two party politics is over, with Reform high in the polls in England and the Nationalists perhaps holding sway in Scotland and Wales. Labour of course still have time to get a grip, but are seemingly short on ideas of how to deal with the mess the country is in. Unless they shape up soon, could the door be open to a very messy and ungovernable hung Parliament?