The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[TravelDream]

The media seems to think Keir is now secure until next May's elections.

His conference speech certainly wasn't as bad as it could have been in my opinion, but the Budget is also a massive test for the government.

Singapore also flourishes on a large body of badly-paid people with no rights who are imported across the border every morning from Johor Bahru and sent back again every evening.

The Malaysians who work in Singapore aren't the worst paid. Anyway, there are over 1 million Malaysians living in Singapore - far more than commute from JB. More Malaysian emigrants live there than anywhere else in the world.

The worst paid, primarily, are the imported Bangladeshi, Indian, Filipino, Indonesian etc. workers who live in work camps in Singapore/ work as live-in home help.

It's a common system in many countries. Whether small countries importing low-paid labour like Singapore, UAE or Qatar. Or, large countries importing workers from rural parts to their cities/ urban areas like China, India etc.

How do you think the industrial revolution in Britain began? People moved from agricultural roles in the countryside to urban areas following work and money. Not much different.

But Singapore wasn't and isn't built on their backs. Singapore was an exceptionally poor country nation racked with racial/ inter-communal strife when it was kicked out of the Malaysia in 1965.

But as I said above, any idea of Singapore on Thames is not one based on importing labour or Britain being an exceptionally poor nation. It's built on free markets, low regulation, low taxes and similar.

It will be interesting to see how Welsh Labour react to the news that they are responsible for the target in Wales. Very strange thing to devolve though given that Welsh students study widely in England (and vice versa).

Which target?
The Welsh Government may decide to just continue with the system as it is now.


Anyway, the 50% was 'noble' in a certain way, but also a silly one.
Way too much focus was placed on school as a pathway to university - even when may students would have been better served by apprenticeships or going straight to work.

 

[brad465]

When I was younger I knew even before leaving high school I wasn't interested in University but college didn't really seem that interested or prepared in dealing with people wanting to go into a career rather than University

Thankfully apprenticeships are much more readily available these days than back in my day which gives you the best of both worlds in that you're building up experience of doing the actual job you intend to end up in whilst also they usually also break it up a bit so some days you're back in the classroom building up qualifications at the same time, all whilst you're earning money (albeit not a fortune!) rather than building up a rather large student debt in the hope you'll gain a degree and go straight into a £100,000 salary job...of course the reality for most is not quite that simple!

There are some careers where going into six-figure salary jobs straight after graduating is possible, but they tend to have a lot of strings attached and don't appeal to many as a result. City traders are an example, where these high salaries often come with 70-odd hours a week work, so you basically have no life outside the job. I also recall during my final year receiving ads for graduate manager jobs at Aldi, that could see successful candidates on over £70k after one year's on-job programme (being paid £50k during that first year), but the catch was the programme had no flexibility (they gave you a few weeks off but at set times only), and the job will have intensive. However, the state of student debt these days means these sort of high salary graduates will be paying back at a very high rate, so coupled with the personal allowance taper above £100k and their effective tax burden is extremely high.

I wonder if there's value in scrapped the personal allowance taper, but trading off by increasing the 45% rate to 50%? This would allow a number of workers, including doctors (and train drivers), who can bank a lot of overtime, to take up more offers without the risk of losing out so much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if there's value in scrapped the personal allowance taper, but trading off by increasing the 45% rate to 50%? This would allow a number of workers, including doctors (and train drivers), who can bank a lot of overtime, to take up more offers without the risk of losing out so much.

I think that would make sense. The personal allowance taper is a nonsensical means of trying to avoid increasing headline rates creating a very high marginal rate in a narrow band which makes no sense at all.

 

[Senex]

Perhaps it's better to say that in more practical contexts it's better to gain qualifications by way of an apprenticeship than a three or four year university course. I certainly do think that and that we underdo apprenticeships badly in the UK. They exist and people succeed from them but they are always seen as a second choice, and they shouldn't be.

Doesn't this bring us back to the old point that we've never, from the middle of the nineteenth century on, managed to value the applied sciences and the institutions that specialised in teaching them properly in this country (except for medicine, which somehow managed to set itself up as an object of worship)? Every technical college wanted to become a college of advanced technology and then in due course a polytechnic, and every polytechnic then seems to have wanted to make itself as close to a traditional university as it possibly could. Oh for an English version of the Technische Hochschulen, with the reputations in the applied sciences that those institutions have always enjoyed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh for an English version of the Technische Hochschulen, with the reputations in the applied sciences that those institutions have always enjoyed.

We've got one of those - Imperial College London. We used to have another one, UMIST*, but sadly that well-respected standalone institution ended up merged with the Victoria University of Manchester, which is itself a fine institution but I think there was a big benefit of having it separate.

We could do with more though.

* University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology, but for many years it was a standalone institution.

 

[Topological]

We've got one of those - Imperial College London. We used to have another one, UMIST*, but sadly that well-respected standalone institution ended up merged with the Victoria University of Manchester, which is itself a fine institution but I think there was a big benefit of having it separate.

We could do with more though.

* University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology, but for many years it was a standalone institution.

We have re-developed the land of the old UMIST in the meantime... It is now Sister Sister Manchester Website

It was sad when UMIST went because "You tried to get into Manchester but U MIST" was a great joke

 

[gg1]

‘Geography degree syndrome’. Degree level geography courses to create the next generation of geography teachers, to teach tomorrow’s geography graduates.

Or to create the next generation of career railway-people. It equipped me well for a working life in the industry, so perhaps less of the punching-down generalisation.

Or as a route into a well paid career in analytics. I know a few analysts and data scientists who obtained their first job on the back of the data analysis skills they learnt as part of their Geography degree.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Hard disagree for me. Qualifications are part of every reputable apprenticeship, including those at degree level. “Practical” subjects still require a high level of academic rigour to enable students to successfully practice in their chosen careers and to advance beyond the entry level.

Degrees are appropriate for more academic and some higher-level qualifications. Vocational qualifications are more appropriate for many jobs which have a large practical element. Why is there a need to load students with three years' worth of debt, when they could be learning on the job and doing any required academic element as a day at a local college once a week (or whatever).

The science and engineering field started in this country, and until the past few decades a large number of people with successful careers in it would not have had a degree. Likewise other fields like nursing, where a degree is now pretty much a requirement but never was in the past.

 

[m0ffy]

Degrees are appropriate for more academic and some higher-level qualifications. Vocational qualifications are more appropriate for many jobs which have a large practical element. Why is there a need to load students with three years' worth of debt, when they could be learning on the job and doing any required academic element as a day at a local college once a week (or whatever).

The science and engineering field started in this country, and until the past few decades a large number of people with successful careers in it would not have had a degree. Likewise other fields like nursing, where a degree is now pretty much a requirement but never was in the past.

Those routes are still available for the appropriate roles and courses. Engineering has a vast array of entry points, but it’s also a profession where progression can be extremely dependent on professional membership and accreditation - which is much, much harder to achieve without a degree. Forcing apprenticeship entry is not a panacea - apprenticeships are extremely competitive, and the quality of apprenticeships is extremely variable. Even “reputable” employers change the deal for their apprentices, pulling funding for education mid-course.

Ultimately, times change and so have the professions, and the attitudes of employers.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Those routes are still available for the appropriate roles and courses.

Not really in a lot of cases - many jobs now demand a degree, and there are relatively few good-quality apprenticeships.

Ultimately, times change and so have the professions, and the attitudes of employers.

But there is absolutely no reason why it has to remain that way. Trying to force nearly everything down the 'degree' route is in many cases forcing a round peg into a square hole.

 

[Richard Scott]

Not really in a lot of cases - many jobs now demand a degree, and there are relatively few good-quality apprenticeships.

There are quite a few, a number of young people with decent A-levels I know have opted for that very route and doing very well out of it. A big advantage is they're not saddled with debt from a degree.

 

[m0ffy]

Not really in a lot of cases - many jobs now demand a degree, and there are relatively few good-quality apprenticeships.



But there is absolutely no reason why it has to remain that way. Trying to force nearly everything down the 'degree' route is in many cases forcing a round peg into a square hole.

I think we agree far more than we disagree here.

One profession that keeps running into this is nursing - it became a degree-entry career in the 90s due to the growing level of theory required to work effectively. Later in the decade, a diploma route was reintroduced, which resulted in a two-tier registration system and limited prospects for diploma nurses. All have since been required to upgrade to a degree or leave the profession. In recent years, the nursing associate role has been introduced which requires…. a foundation degree. NAs are extremely limited in scope and operate under the delegated responsibility of a registered nurse, meaning this role is also likely to be short lived.

 

[Cdd89]

I think that would make sense. The personal allowance taper is a nonsensical means of trying to avoid increasing headline rates creating a very high marginal rate in a narrow band which makes no sense at all.

I agree that it doesn't feel very fair, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it doesn't make sense (in terms of maximising the tax take).

In particular, is it possible that people in the 'lower high-income' range (100-125k) are more susceptible to being taxed (less able to leave the country, restructure their income, etc) than people in the 'very high high-income' range?

 

[edwin_m]

One profession that keeps running into this is nursing - it became a degree-entry career in the 90s due to the growing level of theory required to work effectively. Later in the decade, a diploma route was reintroduced, which resulted in a two-tier registration system and limited prospects for diploma nurses. All have since been required to upgrade to a degree or leave the profession. In recent years, the nursing associate role has been introduced which requires…. a foundation degree. NAs are extremely limited in scope and operate under the delegated responsibility of a registered nurse, meaning this role is also likely to be short lived.

Unlike many other professions, degrees for nurses were applied retrospectively to some extent at least. A relative had to do a part-time degree after having 15 years of experience, which didn't really add to her ability to do the job. It was also sponsored by the NHS, so at least she didn't have to pay but it was a drain on the public purse.

 

[brad465]

There were one of three different threads this could have gone in, but I think this is the most suitable. Many will have seen the heat generated over a decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from the upcoming Aston Villa match, and how the government are now trying to intervene to overturn this decision, with the Tories and Reform (and other parties?) also voicing opposition to the ban:

Government 'doing everything' to overturn Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban at Aston Villa match

It is working with police and exploring what additional resources are required to allow all fans to attend.

www.bbc.co.uk

The government has said it is "doing everything in our power" to overturn a ban on Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attending a football match in Birmingham and is exploring what additional resources could be required.

On Thursday, Aston Villa said the city's Safety Advisory Group (SAG) decided that fans of the Israeli club should not be permitted to attend the Europa League fixture on 6 November over safety concerns.

Facing mounting pressure to resolve the situation, the government said it was working with police and exploring what additional resources are required.

A meeting of the SAG to discuss the match is expected next week, the Home Office said.

There probably are issues in the decision made, but the same old antisemitism shield has been deployed yet again, which doesn't make sense because the decision was made on safety grounds, particularly given the incident in Amsterdam last year. It's also I think wrong to effectively suggest all the club's fans are Jews, and/or all Jews support that club and its actions, which is what I think is being implied by those suggesting this ban is antisemitic.

 

[KevinBrum12]

There were one of three different threads this could have gone in, but I think this is the most suitable. Many will have seen the heat generated over a decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from the upcoming Aston Villa match, and how the government are now trying to intervene to overturn this decision, with the Tories and Reform (and other parties?) also voicing opposition to the ban:

Government 'doing everything' to overturn Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban at Aston Villa match

It is working with police and exploring what additional resources are required to allow all fans to attend.

www.bbc.co.uk

Maccabi Tel Aviv


There probably are issues in the decision made, but the same old antisemitism shield has been deployed yet again, which doesn't make sense because the decision was made on safety grounds, particularly given the incident in Amsterdam last year. It's also I think wrong to effectively suggest all the club's fans are Jews, and/or all Jews support that club and its actions, which is what I think is being implied by those suggesting this ban is antisemitic.

It is a valid and sensible intelligence led decision from West Midlands Police. The politicians should have no business interfering in decisions on Police Operations.

Rather than trying to make a big issue out ot this, the lazy political journalists should start asking the leaders some hard questions:

• We've heard Kemi Badenoch revive the concept of the "magic money tree". Isn't it the case you see there being a magic tree of police officers, when in fact most of the British public never see a bobby on the beat in their neighbourhood and when they contact the Police to report a house being burgled or that their car has been smashed up the response is no action or a crime number?
• When are Police Officer numbers going to be back up to the level they were at in 2010 before the first austerity drive?
• Is it fair for football clubs to foot the full costs of policing games, when the organisers of the asylum hotel protests and Palestine Action have not paid a penny towards the costs of policing their protests?
• Prime Minister, why isn't shoplifting taken seriously? Isn't that not just an indictment not just on your record as Prime Minister but also as Director of Public Prosecutions in the early 2010's?
• Mr. Farage, aren't you not backing the rule of law or the Police by supporting a woman who pleaded guilty and was imprisoned for calling on people to set fire to hotels?
• Mr. Davey, surely this shows you and your party jumping on bandwagons showing your party just like the rest of them and isn't this undermining your Lib Dem councillors in Birmingham Perry Barr?
• Miss. Badenoch, what would your reaction be if Maccabi Tel Aviv fans turn up in Birmingham on the 6th November and cause death and disorder on the scale of the 1985 Handsworth Riots? Would you show your face in the Birmingham hospitals and would you be surprised or offended if you were told by a patient to "0121 do one"?

If I was a radio presenter I don't think the politicians would like me!!!!

 

[Topological]

The issue here is that unlike many away teams that will visit Villa Park, the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are associated with something which other groups target. I am being careful not to be specific when I say that. There is a risk above that created by simple away supporters.

When Birmingham City go to Villa Park there is an organised police operation. I dont know the details having never been involved. I have had things rained down upon me from the "Olympic Balcony" at St Andrews though.

When rivals go to games there may be conditions, such as everyone needs to travel by supporters coach. That was in operation for Swansea v Cardiff many times recently.

A solution could be developed with Maccabi Tel Aviv fans required to take specific flights and/or assemble at Stansted (or similar) and then travel by coach from there. I think what is bad in this case is that nothing has been explored.

Those who would then seek to target such coaches of Tel Aviv fans would have quite a lot to answer for.

 

[JamesT]

There probably are issues in the decision made, but the same old antisemitism shield has been deployed yet again, which doesn't make sense because the decision was made on safety grounds, particularly given the incident in Amsterdam last year. It's also I think wrong to effectively suggest all the club's fans are Jews, and/or all Jews support that club and its actions, which is what I think is being implied by those suggesting this ban is antisemitic.

The antisemitism comes in when organisations that a largely Jewish are held to a different standard to everyone else. The decision is allegedly on safety grounds, but there has been a campaign led by the local MP to ban them. Has that swayed the people issuing the safety certificates? Other teams have had away fans banned, but that’s been on the grounds that said fans would be the cause of violence. In this case it’s apparently the risk that the locals will be the violent ones.
I don’t see how it’s suggesting all the fans are Jews or that all Jews support them. But where they are largely Jewish, (their club badge is the Star of David), then different treatment is going to raise suspicions that stated reasons are merely a pretext. Yes, some people do falsely equate all criticism of Israel as antisemitism, but that doesn’t automatically mean that all of it isn’t.

 

[KevinBrum12]

With the ceasefire collapsing and Israel back to bombing Gaza, hopefully common sense will prevail and the most the Maccabi Tel Aviv Ultra fans will see of Villa Park will be on television.

 

[Minilad]

The antisemitism comes in when organisations that a largely Jewish are held to a different standard to everyone else. The decision is allegedly on safety grounds, but there has been a campaign led by the local MP to ban them. Has that swayed the people issuing the safety certificates? Other teams have had away fans banned, but that’s been on the grounds that said fans would be the cause of violence. In this case it’s apparently the risk that the locals will be the violent ones.
I don’t see how it’s suggesting all the fans are Jews or that all Jews support them. But where they are largely Jewish, (their club badge is the Star of David), then different treatment is going to raise suspicions that stated reasons are merely a pretext. Yes, some people do falsely equate all criticism of Israel as antisemitism, but that doesn’t automatically mean that all of it isn’t.

This decision was nothing to do with antisemitism and everything to do with public safety. If you think Maccabi fans are all sweetness and light that's up to you but you might want to check out what happened yesterday in the Tel Aviv derby against Hapoel. Maybe the Tel Aviv police were being antisemitic too.
Maccabi have banned away fans from home games in the Europa League this season and look what happened in Amsterdam last season, against a club with a noticeable Jewish following. So, no, this wasn't antisemitism at all it was just a case of trying to ensure the safety of EVERYONE who wanted to attend the game.

 

[BAFRA77]

The antisemitism comes in when organisations that a largely Jewish are held to a different standard to everyone else. The decision is allegedly on safety grounds, but there has been a campaign led by the local MP to ban them. Has that swayed the people issuing the safety certificates? Other teams have had away fans banned, but that’s been on the grounds that said fans would be the cause of violence. In this case it’s apparently the risk that the locals will be the violent ones.
I don’t see how it’s suggesting all the fans are Jews or that all Jews support them. But where they are largely Jewish, (their club badge is the Star of David), then different treatment is going to raise suspicions that stated reasons are merely a pretext. Yes, some people do falsely equate all criticism of Israel as antisemitism, but that doesn’t automatically mean that all of it isn’t.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/sports/article-870974

Seems like the decision of the West Midlands Police was correct and has been vindicated by events over the weekend:

The long-awaited Tel Aviv soccer derby was supposed to be played on Sunday night at Bloomfield Stadium, but instead, it was postponed following a series of disturbances that broke out before kickoff.

Forty-two people were injured during the events, 37 spectators and 5 police officers, while another 40 were arrested (11 of them were imprisoned and will be brought to court on Tuesday), according to police reports.

The highly anticipated matchup between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Hapoel Tel Aviv was canceled after police determined that conditions at the stadium were unsafe to continue.

The decision came after extensive use of pyrotechnics by fans, including fireworks and smoke grenades, which led to injuries among both supporters and police officers. According to Israeli Police, three officers and five fans were hurt during the incidents.

Fans from both teams hurled flares onto the pitch, producing dense smoke that engulfed the field. Even before the match officially began, police reported that rioters launched smoke grenades and fireworks onto the playing area. In total, 48 smoke grenades and 52 pyrotechnic devices were thrown.

“This was not a football game, but a case of serious disorder and violence,” the police said in an official statement. “As a result, Israel Police has informed the clubs and match officials that the game cannot take place.”

The Israel Professional Football Leagues Association later confirmed that, based on police instructions, the match would not be held. The announcement was made about 20 minutes after the scheduled 8:30 p.m. start time, as the stadium remained covered in smoke.

Even before the planned kickoff, tension was visible around the venue. Police said that several fans were involved in throwing bottles and stones outside the stadium, leading to five arrests and several temporary detentions for illegal assembly.

Inside Bloomfield, more than 25,000 spectators had filled the seats, creating an atmosphere of excitement and anticipation for a derby that hadn’t been played in over a year. However, after discussions among police and stadium officials, Tel Aviv District Commander Haim Sargrof decided to halt the event due to safety concerns.

A statement from the Israel Police said, “Riots, disturbances, object throwing, smoke grenades, fireworks, injured officers, and damage to stadium infrastructure - this is not a soccer match, this is a serious public disturbance and violence.”

“In light of the disturbances and the risk to human life ahead of the soccer match at Bloomfield Stadium, Israel Police informed the teams, their management, and the referees that the match would not be allowed to take place.”

 

[Topological]

This decision was nothing to do with antisemitism and everything to do with public safety. If you think Maccabi fans are all sweetness and light that's up to you but you might want to check out what happened yesterday in the Tel Aviv derby against Hapoel. Maybe the Tel Aviv police were being antisemitic too.
Maccabi have banned away fans from home games in the Europa League this season and look what happened in Amsterdam last season, against a club with a noticeable Jewish following. So, no, this wasn't antisemitism at all it was just a case of trying to ensure the safety of EVERYONE who wanted to attend the game.

IF this becomes bans for all other clubs where pyrotechnics are over-used then great. I absolutely support blocking some of the French clubs, the Italians, the Spannish etc.

So no Roma and Lazio? Roma v Lazio 24 Police Officers Injured

One arrest was made, and at least €40,000 worth of garbage dumpsters were damaged following clashes involving fans of Roma and Lazio.​

Clashes between football fans and authorities at the weekend's Rome derby left 24 police officers injured, with the city's mayor comparing the violence to "urban warfare".
Supporters attacked police in riot gear near the Stadio Olimpico hours before the Serie A match between Lazio and Roma kicked off at 8:45 pm on Sunday. One arrest was made, and at least €40,000 worth of garbage dumpsters were damaged, local authorities said.

Or is it just that Italian police have such a low arrest rate?

This is because of who it is and lets not let the ex-post issues in Tel Aviv this weekend cloud that judgement.

 

[BAFRA77]

This is because of who it is and lets not let the ex-post issues in Tel Aviv this weekend cloud that judgement.

If that was the case - then Legia Warsaw fans would not have been banned from Villa Park for exactly the same reasons in 2023.

Where was the political outrage and interference of police operational decisions then?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

If that was the case - then Legia Warsaw fans would not have been banned from Villa Park for exactly the same reasons in 2023.

Where was the political outrage and interference of police operational decisions then?

This, as is usually the case in these things, was a UEFA decision.

The issue around the Maccabi fans ban was not, as far as can be determined, at least partially done due to concerns over protests around Israeli teams in general due to the events in Gaza.

 

[Topological]

This, as is usually the case in these things, was a UEFA decision.

The issue around the Maccabi fans ban was not, as far as can be determined, at least partially done due to concerns over protests around Israeli teams in general due to the events in Gaza.

Thank you, I didnt know what the logic for Warsaw was. My team are not involved in Europe and I don't keep up with the ins and outs of who is banning. I know UEFA do ban teams and that this Macabi ban is not UEFA.

People are clutching at straws using an event from AFTER the decision was taken to somehow justify the decision.

IF UEFA move to ban Macabi Tel Aviv after Sunday then again, lets see if there is consistency on other countries teams.

 

[m0ffy]

Banning away supporters on safety grounds is hardly unheard of, even when it’s the safety of away fans at stake. This situation is becoming ludicrous and it’s about time we start scrutinising the links between politicians and Israel.

 

[Topological]

Banning away supporters on safety grounds is hardly unheard of, even when it’s the safety of away fans at stake. This situation is becoming ludicrous and it’s about time we start scrutinising the links between politicians and Israel.

I have no links with Israel. I post as someone with a genuine belief that this is an unjust banning.

Your post is typical conflation of the State of Israel with individuals who have links to Israel. You ask about politicians and Israel when this is should be nothing to do with Israel.

Banning supporters for the actions of their government is not acceptable in any situation.

Bans based on national actions need to be national bans on all travel not just football supporters.

 

[m0ffy]

I have no links with Israel. I post as someone with a genuine belief that this is an unjust banning.

Your post is typical conflation of the State of Israel with individuals who have links to Israel. You ask about politicians and Israel when this is should be nothing to do with Israel.

Banning supporters for the actions of their government is not acceptable in any situation.

Bans based on national actions need to be national bans on all travel not just football supporters.

If you re-read my (admittedly, poorly worded) post, you’ll notice I have made two separate points:

1. It is not unusual to ban away supporters if their safety cannot be guaranteed.

2. The nationality of the team/fans is the only reason there has been interference from central government. We haven’t seen similar uproar resulting from previous bans.

And I didn’t accuse you of having any links to any nation.

 

[JamesT]

Read my post again. I have made two separate points:

1. It is not unusual to ban away supporters if their safety cannot be guaranteed.

2. The nationality of the team/fans is the only reason there has been interference from central government. We haven’t seen similar uproar resulting from previous bans.

And I didn’t accuse you of having any links to any nation.

As far as I can tell, previous bans of away supporters have been due to the ill-behaviour of said fans. Whereas this has been reported as being to protect the away fans from the locals. Do you have any examples where that has been the case?

 

[75A]

Can someone explain to me what a club from Israel a country in Asia is even doing in a UEFA (European Union of Football Associations) competition, seems most irregular.