The Bag Tax

[Starmill]

I think it's a good idea and 5p is so miniscule a value, it hardly justifies it being called a 'tax'.

Plastic bags have been proven to enter the food chain where they cause mass havoc and if we are encouraged to do more, then I agree with the decision.

Not every 'tax' is a bane.

I wasn't aware that it was an actual tax. It's just a charge which is being enforced by legislation.

 

[Zoidberg]

I wasn't aware that it was an actual tax. It's just a charge which is being enforced by legislation.

A tax, by any other name ... is still a tax.

 

[jon0844]

A tax, by any other name ... is still a tax.

Like bedroom tax, which is most certainly not a tax either?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like bedroom tax, which is most certainly not a tax either?

A matter that certain members of some political parties seem naively unaware of when they discuss that particular matter...

 

[Bletchleyite]

A tax, by any other name ... is still a tax.

It's not money going to Government, and therefore it is not a tax.

 

[Zoidberg]

It's not money going to Government, and therefore it is not a tax.

I disagree. It is the government which has decreed that folk have to be charged, so, to me, it's a tax.

 

[DarloRich]

A tax, by any other name ... is still a tax.

I disagree. It is the government which has decreed that folk have to be charged, so, to me, it's a tax.

exactly - it is a tax just like the bedroom tax. You can call it an under-occupancy charge or carrier bag levy or whatever is more palatable or designed to hide the truth but it is a tax in all but name.

EDIT - this "tax" is no concern to me as I have lots of bags stashed and quite a few non plastic bags that i use.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's not money going to Government, and therefore it is not a tax.

Is not 0.83p of each 5p going to the Treasury though?



Incidentally I agree with the measure - we do need to force a reduction in the use of plastic bags.

 

[DarloRich]

Is not 0.83p of each 5p going to the Treasury though?



Incidentally I agree with the measure - we do need to force a reduction in the use of plastic bags.

We do but alternatives should be provided by the retailer.

Certainly you may have a plastic carrier bag for 5p but why not use X, Y or Z for free.

 

[WestCoast]

Stopped for a sandwich from Tesco Metro in Birmingham today, self service checkout asked if I'd used any bags after I clicked "Finish & Pay".

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's not money going to Government, and therefore it is not a tax.

The 5p charge is inclusive of VAT, which means 0.84p per carrier bag sold will be winging its way to Economics George over in HM Treasury.

I'm sure Low Tax Gideon will be pleased.

I tend to use jute bags as they're easier to carry, and I don't have a car. But lets not pretend the Tories' sudden desire to get all green is about anything other than revenue.

As with all government, tax is always the answer; their job is to justify the question.

 

[Yew]

What would you propose, a referendum?

I'd probably put it through the house of commons, like most laws are, rather than bypass them under climate change legislation.

 

[GB]

The 5p charge is inclusive of VAT, which means 0.84p per carrier bag sold will be winging its way to Economics George over in HM Treasury.

Buy buying a supermarket carrier bag you are effectively purchasing a product which is why the vat is added. Its no more a tax than if you were to purchase 5 penny sweets or a bag for life.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The 5p charge is inclusive of VAT, which means 0.84p per carrier bag sold will be winging its way to Economics George over in HM Treasury.

But if the company donates that 5p to charity, can they not claim tax relief on the donation?

I know for personal donations, you can claim 25% back, which would mean a net loss to the treasury.

 

[Seacook]

I know for personal donations, you can claim 25% back, which would mean a net loss to the treasury.

How? If you donate £8 after 20% tax and the charity reclaims an extra 25% of the donated amount then the total is £10 which is the same as the amount you earned before tax - the Treasury gets £2 then returns £2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We do but alternatives should be provided by the retailer.

Certainly you may have a plastic carrier bag for 5p but why not use X, Y or Z for free.

I'd consider that a little patronising, given that the alternative is basically bring your own. One exception I'd suggest, though, is that the delivery services would do well to start letting you keep crates on deposit to give you time to unload. Maybe they should switch to smaller more home-friendly crates at the same time, like the old Safeway Greenboxes they used to use for their self scan service.

Amusingly, I bought a new suit jacket from M&S today, and that came in a suit carrier, which was not chargeable because it wasn't a single use bag, despite costing far more than one to make.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd consider that a little patronising, given that the alternative is basically bring your own. One exception I'd suggest, though, is that the delivery services would do well to start letting you keep crates on deposit to give you time to unload. Maybe they should switch to smaller more home-friendly crates at the same time, like the old Safeway Greenboxes they used to use for their self scan service.

I am simply saying that part of the mechanism to move people away form plastic bags has to be to offer them an alternative, be it boxes or non plastic bags or different wrappings etc AND make then attractive so that taking a bag and paying the 5p doesn't remain the easy/default option

 

[beeza1]

I note that amongst that stated exemptions are "Live Fish".

Have any of the forum members ever brought live fish home from the supermarket in a carrier bag....and if so, what were the fish in question?

I used to keep tropical fish and these were always supplied in a water filled plastic bag, admittedly not a carrier bag, I assume that is the reason for the exemption, there are after all some quite large pet shop chains now.

 

[jon0844]

I'm amazed anyone is bothered about this charge. Was there such a fuss when Wales did it, or anywhere else around the world?

I've been using my own bags since shops started to ask if I wanted a bag, rather than just giving me one if I wanted it or not. I'll pay if I forget my own bag (which will be MY fault) and life will go on.

By the end of the year, I doubt my expenditure on bags will be that significant.

 

[Bevan Price]

Are paper bags as much of an issue, though? They are easily torn (for a caught animal to escape), are biodegradable and are fully and easily recyclable.
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.

But not much use for soft fruit (strawberries, raspberries), or for salads / sandwiches containing salad - the paper tends to disintegrate with anything that is a bit damp.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am simply saying that part of the mechanism to move people away form plastic bags has to be to offer them an alternative, be it boxes or non plastic bags or different wrappings etc AND make then attractive so that taking a bag and paying the 5p doesn't remain the easy/default option

It would be nice if they'd go back to putting the old boxes from products out for people to use like they used to. Those are getting recycled anyway, so they might as well get recycled after being used for some shopping. They could also increase efficiency by providing them in a separate packing area like Aldi and Lidl, so people don't waste cashiers' time by standing there packing when they could be serving the next customer.

Anything involving a dedicated bag substitute, though, is just going to have the same issue - if it's free, people will take it by default.

 

[AM9]

It would be nice if they'd go back to putting the old boxes from products out for people to use like they used to. Those are getting recycled anyway, so they might as well get recycled after being used for some shopping. They could also increase efficiency by providing them in a separate packing area like Aldi and Lidl, so people don't waste cashiers' time by standing there packing when they could be serving the next customer.

Well it's only those who are on foot that would need it as most who have trolleys take them to their cars.

 

[Zoidberg]

Well it's only those who are on foot that would need it as most who have trolleys take them to their cars.

That'd make an amusing sight ... folk staggering away from the supermarket, carrying their provisions in such as a banana box!

Or, did you mean the packing area for the food soldiers rather than, as I interpreted, the boxes?

EDIT: D'oh! I meant to type 'foot soldiers'!

 

[cb a1]

I am simply saying that part of the mechanism to move people away form plastic bags has to be to offer them an alternative, be it boxes or non plastic bags or different wrappings etc AND make then attractive so that taking a bag and paying the 5p doesn't remain the easy/default option

It COULD be part of the mechanism, it doesn't HAVE to be part of the mechanism.

It has been quite amusing to watch all the same old hysterics about this as we had in Scotland a few years ago only for everyone to get used to the new system after what, 1 day, maybe 2 days.

 

[AM9]

It COULD be part of the mechanism, it doesn't HAVE to be part of the mechanism.

It has been quite amusing to watch all the same old hysterics about this as we had in Scotland a few years ago only for everyone to get used to the new system after what, 1 day, maybe 2 days.

I agree, it's just like the tungsten lightbulb frenzy all over again.
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That'd make an amusing sight ... folk staggering away from the supermarket, carrying their provisions in such as a banana box!

Or, did you mean the packing area for the food soldiers rather than, as I interpreted, the boxes?

I did mean the packing area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it's only those who are on foot that would need it as most who have trolleys take them to their cars.

You don't want a load of loose cans rattling round your boot. If nothing else, think of how long unloading will take.

As for walking away with boxes - I've done that loads of times from Aldi etc!

 

[DarloRich]

It would be nice if they'd go back to putting the old boxes from products out for people to use like they used to. Those are getting recycled anyway, so they might as well get recycled after being used for some shopping. They could also increase efficiency by providing them in a separate packing area like Aldi and Lidl, so people don't waste cashiers' time by standing there packing when they could be serving the next customer.

Anything involving a dedicated bag substitute, though, is just going to have the same issue - if it's free, people will take it by default.

Aldi and Morrisons seem to offer boxes

It COULD be part of the mechanism, it doesn't HAVE to be part of the mechanism.

It has been quite amusing to watch all the same old hysterics about this as we had in Scotland a few years ago only for everyone to get used to the new system after what, 1 day, maybe 2 days.

Surely if you want to change habits it is best to offer something to change to. If you offer a replacement free people will use that otherwise many will still pay the 5p and use plastic carriers. That kind of defeats the object........


The tax wont doesn't concern me as I have plenty of bags stashed away and most of my shopping is delivered to me.

 

[AM9]

Aldi and Morrisons seem to offer boxes



Surely if you want to change habits it is best to offer something to change to. If you offer a replacement free people will use that otherwise many will still pay the 5p and use plastic carriers. That kind of defeats the object........


The tax wont doesn't concern me as I have plenty of bags stashed away and most of my shopping is delivered to me.

Well the experience in NI, Wales and Scotland indicates that within a comparatively short time, shoppers will curb their consumtion of plastic bags, - exactly what is needed and the only intention of the legislation. Why do you think that England is any different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely if you want to change habits it is best to offer something to change to.

But you are fundamentally missing the point. The point is not specifically plastic carrier bags. The point is to reduce waste by encouraging people to re-use bags or use non disposable bags. Give anything away for free, whatever it is (boxes aside, possibly) and people will just take loads of them, and it won't work.

 

[DarloRich]

Well the experience in NI, Wales and Scotland indicates that within a comparatively short time, shoppers will curb their consumtion of plastic bags, - exactly what is needed and the only intention of the legislation. Why do you think that England is any different?

because we are different and special :roll:

But you are fundamentally missing the point. The point is not specifically plastic carrier bags. The point is to reduce waste by encouraging people to re-use bags or use non disposable bags. Give anything away for free, whatever it is (boxes aside, possibly) and people will just take loads of them, and it won't work.

yes but if the replacement items are less harmful to the environment and can be reused surely it is a good thing to have more of them in circulation.

I am all for this charge. A plastic bag takes about a gazillion years to decompose. We should be using canvas or hemp or jute bags. They have much better handles if nothing else!