The Badger Cull

[Temple Meads]

From BBC News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23845851

A badger cull is under way in England despite protests, the National Farmers' Union has confirmed.

About 5,000 badgers are expected to be killed in controlled shootings over six weeks in Somerset and Gloucestershire.

Supporters say the cull is necessary to tackle bovine TB, which can be spread from infected badgers, but opponents say it is inhumane and ineffective.

The RSPCA said it was "saddened", while anti-cull protesters held a vigil as the pilot began, initially in Somerset.

It is understood the cull in Gloucestershire will start later this week.

In a letter to members, National Farmers' Union (NFU) president Peter Kendall said: "This is an important step not just for cattle farmers but for the whole farming industry.

"I know that many of you reading this will have suffered the misery of dealing with TB on farm - some of you for decades - and I hope now you will feel that something is finally being done to stem the cycle of infection between cattle and badgers."

He added that he hoped the culls would show a reduction in TB in cattle, and that more people would understand why they were "absolutely necessary".

What are your views on this, do you think the cull is justified, or dreadful cruelty?

Do you think direct action by anti-cull campaigners is acceptable?

Personally I am firmly in the anti-cull camp.

 

[Butts]

I would not claim to have any great knowledge on the subject ... when has that ever stopped inane contributions on RailUK Forums (me included :cry

However I did see a report on BBC News at 10pm claiming it works in Ireland.

"Brock" and his pals had better watch out

 

[gnolife]

I personally am against it, partly because I think that whatever evidence they may have might just have been made up to justify culling the badger population, and partly for the simple fact that I believe that it is cruel to kill something except for the purpose of eating it, therefore, unless there's going to be a massive increase in the number of restaurants serving badger, then I'm against it.

Also, not a particuarly relevant point, but I have a friend known to the world in general as 'Badger', currently living in Gloucester. I would feel much better if he wasn't in danger of being culled.

 

[TheEdge]

Shoot them, shoot them again and shoot them some more. Then shoot some more.

The things are basically vermin and need to be controlled. Their population has risen unchecked since they were declared a protected species. The amount of livelihoods ruined by bovine TB is reason enough to cull them.

 

[Johnuk123]

Shoot them, shoot them again and shoot them some more. Then shoot some more.
The things are basically vermin.

I take it then that even if there was no connection between badgers and t.b. you'd like to see them all killed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I hope that the Government do not decide to extend the cull to humans suffering from the form of TB that affects them, as a method of helping to resolve a problem in the NHS.....:roll:

Now if only a scientist could prove a link to anti-social chavs of both sexes and TB in cattle, that would be a totally different kettle of fish and one well worth extending the cull to.

Sits back and awaits Shami Chakrabati and our humanist forum members to browbeat me in postings....

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Culling badgers won't stop the spread of TB.
It's not a black and white issue.

(Runs for safety).

 

[mac]

Culling badgers won't stop the spread of TB.
It's not a black and white issue.

(Runs for safety).

So what will? If the cows get it from badgers and you take them away that must mean no TB

 

[Geezertronic]

So what will? If the cows get it from badgers and you take them away that must mean no TB

I think it was an attempt at a joke

 

[TheEdge]

I take it then that even if there was no connection between badgers and t.b. you'd like to see them all killed.

Well, apparently their population in certain areas has grown so much they are well above the supportable population so this cull might actually help the remaining ones. Similar to certain deer populations.

And no, of course I wouldn't support it if it wasn't for the TB link.

 

[Aldaniti]

Owen Patterson is simply caving in to the powerful farming lobby. There is no justification for this, its all about maximising the amount of money in some peoples pockets. When I see the farmers on TV trying to get sympathy for the effects on their cattle - cattle they have no problem in sending for slaughter - I feel like throwing up. I wish the anti-cull poeple all the very best and with a bit of luck a gun will backfire.

 

[Oswyntail]

Like so many public "debates" these days, neither side is attempting to address the other side's arguments. What does strike me is that the projected improvement in TB rates after a full cull is still only about 16% - and that over 10 years. TB is endemic in the British stock, and farmers are, IMHO, using badger disease transmission as a way of avoiding the expense of a veterinary approach. On the other hand, badger numbers are increasing dramatically - though I have never seen a live one. Are they proven to damage other crops significantly? If not, then the natural balance will be restored before long.

 

[D6975]

Badgers are not nomadic as far as I am aware.
Cows are sold and moved between farms.
As mentioned above, Badger culls only produce minimal reduction in the incidence of bovine TB.

A little over simplified perhaps, but it does rather point to the cows being the ones moving the TB about rather than the badgers.

 

[Temple Meads]

Badgers are not nomadic as far as I am aware.

Not naturally, but there is a danger that certain things such as humans on their territory, or gunfire, could make them disperse over a wider area, thereby spreading bTB. :roll:

 

[Antman]

From BBC News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23845851



What are your views on this, do you think the cull is justified, or dreadful cruelty?

Do you think direct action by anti-cull campaigners is acceptable?

Personally I am firmly in the anti-cull camp.

I am also firmly against the cull, we heard all the feeble arguments to try and justify fox hunting.................the death of the countryside, horses and hounds destroyed, thousands of jobs lost etc etc, all of it is total tosh and I've no doubt the attempts to justify the badger cull are much the same.

Live and let live

 

[BlythPower]

There’s a big clue in the name: Bovine TB. It’s a disease of cattle, not badgers. The main factors in its prevalence would appear to be a combination of bad husbandry and excessive livestock transportation. Neither of which can be blamed on badgers. If you want an example of the latter, just watch Countryfile where virtually every week Adam Henson travels the length and breadth of the country with a trailer full of animals. He then stands around scratching his head wondering how TB could have got to his farm before deciding it must be the badgers’ fault. If you really must cull something to prevent the spread of TB, then surely it must be farmers that should face the chop – starting with Henson.

 

[TheEdge]

There’s a big clue in the name: Bovine TB. It’s a disease of cattle, not badgers.

Not entirely. Its just another strain (Mycobacterium bovis) of the bacteria that causes TB but it is most commonly seen in cattle as opposed to M. tuberculosis, the strain more commonly seen in human cases. It still causes TB in badgers, humans and a whole lot of other animals. By your logic of its called Bovine TB so its only in cows does that mean Swine and Bird flu only affects pigs and birds? Or any other of the countless diseases which either jumped from animal to human or species to species; AIDS, Plague, Rabies, Typhus, Lyme Disease, vCJD (Mad Cow) and Ebola to name but a few, are not problems?

The main factors in its prevalence would appear to be a combination of bad husbandry and excessive livestock transportation. Neither of which can be blamed on badgers.

But badgers are a major natural reservoir of bTB. They are also the vector which can spread bTB to otherwise isolated herds. Also Defra has a system in place where most cattle being moved must have been tested within 60 days for TB, so there is some attempts also being made at controlling movement.

A little aside. New Zealand has had the same problem and has identified the natural vector of bTB in NZ as the possum. Culling out there has reduced TB infections by as much as 87% in some areas (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288233.1999.9513358)

In short I stand by my original post, shoot them between the eyes.

 

[BlythPower]

A little aside. New Zealand has had the same problem and has identified the natural vector of bTB in NZ as the possum. Culling out there has reduced TB infections by as much as 87% in some areas (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288233.1999.9513358)

Comparing New Zealand's brush tailed possums with UK badgers is hardly a like-for-like comparison, though. And you've not really addressed the husbandry and livestock movement factors. After all, if badgers can spread TB so can pigs, sheep and other livestock being carted around the country. And Adam Henson, of course.

 

[StoneRoad]

Vacination, Vacination, Vacination. For catlle and badgers.

Although I'm not convinced that the badgers are the primary vector for the spread of Bovine TB. I suspect that bad husbandry, lack of pre-movement testing and the very long distance of some bovines are transported are far more important in the spread of Bovine TB. And it is treatable in any case.
Have a look at the badger / Bovine TB distribution maps - incidentally there are several areas that appear to have Bovine TB but no badgers........

 

[BlythPower]

Have a look at the badger / Bovine TB distribution maps - incidentally there are several areas that appear to have Bovine TB but no badgers........

Sshhh... Don't say that! You might take the edge off TheEdge's kill frenzy!

 

[Johnuk123]

Vacination, Vacination, Vacination. For catlle and badgers.

Although I'm not convinced that the badgers are the primary vector for the spread of Bovine TB. I suspect that bad husbandry, lack of pre-movement testing and the very long distance of some bovines are transported are far more important in the spread of Bovine TB. And it is treatable in any case.
Have a look at the badger / Bovine TB distribution maps - incidentally there are several areas that appear to have Bovine TB but no badgers........

Our dear friend the E.U. has banned the use of a vaccine for Bovine T.B.

 

[TheEdge]

Sshhh... Don't say that! You might take the edge off TheEdge's kill frenzy!

I never said that the movement wasn't part of the problem. I just really do think working on the local wild reservoir of the disease is the way forward.

Slaughter them!

 

[mac]

Vacination, Vacination, Vacination. For catlle and badgers.

Although I'm not convinced that the badgers are the primary vector for the spread of Bovine TB. I suspect that bad husbandry, lack of pre-movement testing and the very long distance of some bovines are transported are far more important in the spread of Bovine TB. And it is treatable in any case.
Have a look at the badger / Bovine TB distribution maps - incidentally there are several areas that appear to have Bovine TB but no badgers........

What do you mean by bad husbandry and which areas have bovine TB but no badgers?

 

[DarloRich]

Owen Patterson is simply caving in to the powerful farming lobby. There is no justification for this, its all about maximising the amount of money in some peoples pockets. When I see the farmers on TV trying to get sympathy for the effects on their cattle - cattle they have no problem in sending for slaughter - I feel like throwing up. I wish the anti-cull poeple all the very best and with a bit of luck a gun will backfire.

what on earth are you talking about? Do you have any understanding of how farming and food supply works?

Steaks dont just turn up on the shelves at Tesco shrink wrapped. Of course farmers send their cattle to slaughter. They grow food in the shape of cows! They aren't domesticated or nice cuddlely wuddley pets. The are a business investment in which the business owner ( farmer ) wants to make a return :roll::roll:

I wouldn't say my knowledge of the origins and spread of bovine TB are detailed and i am somewhat detached from my farming friends in the NE but there is evidence to support the fact that badgers carry and spread the disease.

That said, is a mass cull proportionate? I dont know as there are issues with cattle movement, veterinary care and animal husbandry to consider, however there seems to be enough evidence to support a trial cull to gather further evidence.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if Tony Blair is itching to stand again at the despatch box and solemnly pontificating that he has incontroversial evidence that badgers can affect cattle with bovine TB in a 45minute period...

 

[Temple Meads]

The are a business investment in which the business owner ( farmer ) wants to make a return :roll::roll:

Albeit a business in which living creatures are often kept in poor conditions and slaughtered after having a rather horrible life..

 

[Bevan Price]

O.K. - Badgers get TB. But what about other animals & birds - can they also carry TB and spread it to cattle ?

I think badgers are just an easy target for farmers to blame, and I think the badger murder will fail.

I am opposed to militant / illegal action to obstruct the killing, but if people want to protest, why not hit the farmers where it hurts them most - their wallets.

Farmer supports the cull ? Boycott his/her farm shop.
Buy pork or chicken instead of beef, etc., etc.

 

[DarloRich]

Albeit a business in which living creatures are often kept in poor conditions and slaughtered after having a rather horrible life..

I dont understand your point? Do you eat meat?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

O.K. - Badgers get TB. But what about other animals & birds - can they also carry TB and spread it to cattle ?

I think badgers are just an easy target for farmers to blame, and I think the badger murder will fail.

I am opposed to militant / illegal action to obstruct the killing, but if people want to protest, why not hit the farmers where it hurts them most - their wallets.

Farmer supports the cull ? Boycott his/her farm shop.
Buy pork or chicken instead of beef, etc., etc.

what a load of emotional sentimental tosh. Try some research. How do you intended to "hurt" farmers supporting the cull. Do you track every carcass from farm to abattoir to meat processing centre to packaging centre to supermarket? Because every farmer has a farm shop dont they - all your plan would do is hurt the smaller farmers trying to protect their livelihood while the massive agri business trundles on.

 

[Oswyntail]

What do you mean by bad husbandry...

Interesting letter in today's "Times", asking how the disease is transmitted between badgers and cattle. The writer, an expert on the Epdemiology of Infectious Diseases, suggests that the more probable means of transmission is via badgers urinating on cattle feed, and suggests that keeping feed areas more secure to prevent badger access. That would be more expensive, however. IMHO, it would also involve farmers acknowledging that their practices may also be at fault, something they are loath to do (see Foot and Mouth, and "Mad Cow").

 

[Johnuk123]

Interesting letter in today's "Times", asking how the disease is transmitted between badgers and cattle. The writer, an expert on the Epdemiology of Infectious Diseases, suggests that the more probable means of transmission is via badgers urinating on cattle feed, and suggests that keeping feed areas more secure to prevent badger access. That would be more expensive, however. IMHO, it would also involve farmers acknowledging that their practices may also be at fault, something they are loath to do (see Foot and Mouth, and "Mad Cow").

Find me a contented farmer if you can ?

I think farmers quite like the tag of being Britain's biggest moaners.
Too wet, too dry, too cold, too hot, too windy, and the classic 'wrong type of rain'

I know a farmer very well and find it ironic that he has a 'buy British meat' sticker on both of his foreign 4x4's and owns several foreign tractors.In his family they have 4 foreign cars and a Japanese motorbike.

Practice what you preach springs to mind.