The Alternative Vote (AV)

[starrymarkb]

Have to agree. I'm one of the much coveted floating voters, I tend to read the manifestos and make a decision based on that. .

Growing up in East Devon was as blue as they come (70% Tory Vote) and there was no attempt to woo the electorate. Now I live in Exeter which is much more marginal (Currently Labour Majority) there is much more information and canvassing.

I notice Kennedy has been voting against the ConDem party line

 

[Zoe]

In the South West many constituencies are two horse races between the Tories and LibDems and this results in some Labour supporters voting LibDem to keep the Tories out. With AV they could vote Labour as their first choice and it wouldn't be a wasted vote and they could then have LibDem as their second choice.

 

[SS4]

The real shame is that the Lib Dems were looking like they could actually have been the real third party that this country needs. However he has put them back at least 10-20 years by doing what he did, plus I bet his flagship policy of introducing AV gets knocked back in his face by the electorate.

Agreed. I can see it failing simply because it's a Lib Dem policy which is a shame since AV will be good for us.

Have to agree. I'm one of the much coveted floating voters, I tend to read the manifestos and make a decision based on that. .

Of course it only makes it meaningful if you're in a marginal which is a disgrace.

 

[starrymarkb]

Agreed. I can see it failing simply because it's a Lib Dem policy which is a shame since AV will be good for us.

Thats what I'm afraid of.

Ignoring Nick Clegg and the ConDem situation
Based on percent of the vote I worked out that it would still be a Conservative, though not by as much overall, with Labour being down and Lib Dems up

What really shows up how broken the current system is this.
Conservative 38% of Vote - 10,726,614 - 307 Seats
Labour 29% of the Vote - 8,609,527 - 258 Seats
LibDem 23% of the Vote - 6,836,824 - 57 Seats

Now if you look at the Lib Dems - 2 Million less votes then Labour but Labour have 200 more seats. So 23% of the electorate only get about 8% of the representation

Now the argument about the BNP etc. If things were fully PR then of 1% of the country votes for them then they should get 1% representation. Not an appealing prospect but you can't pick and chose overall

 

[Zoe]

Based on percent of the vote I worked out that it would still be a Conservative, though not by as much overall

If the Tories had less then a minority Labour government may well have been a possibility. If Clegg hadn't been so keen on siding with the Tories it's even possible the LibDems could have gone into coalition with Labour.

 

[SS4]

Now the argument about the BNP etc. If things were fully PR then of 1% of the country votes for them then they should get 1% representation. Not an appealing prospect but you can't pick and chose overall

It's not helped that the BNP's arguments are not taken seriously by anybody and so no real effort is made to debunk them. We can't sweep them under the rug because they'll still get votes. I can't see the argument that the BNP will get more votes if we talk about them holding.
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If the Tories had less then a minority Labour government may well have been a possibility. If Clegg hadn't been so keen on siding with the Tories it's even possible the LibDems could have gone into coalition with Labour.

It's possible, especially since it would have been likely that a Lab-Lib coalition would have a majority

 

[Ferret]

Seconded! I would also like to see a referendum on any future boundary changes

Er, why?! I seem to recall Blair's last election victory was partly down to the blatantly gerrymandered constituency boundaries which gave Labour an inbuilt electoral advantage. Time for the balance to be redressed - though I'd rather it was done independently of Government so that it didn't go too far the other way...

 

[SS4]

Time for the balance to be redressed - though I'd rather it was done independently of Government so that it didn't go too far the other way...

To redress the balance. Political parties only ever change boundaries to benefit themselves. A referendum would help redress it although an independent expert would probably do a better job

 

[HST Power]

Forgive me if I'm being rude but is that because you agree with the policies each time or because you were raised that way so to speak?

My grandparents supported Labour. My mother couldn't care less about politics. My Dad supported the Conservatives but he wasn't really interested, to him, all Government's were the same. I chose the Conservatives as my Party through my own free will. Today, I earn a living through advising their Ministers of Parliament. Nobody told me who I had to vote for, and nobody stood me on the table and said 'You support the Tories, or else!'

I don't consider your comment as rude, I've heard it many times before. But it's incorrect all the same!

 

[Ferret]

To redress the balance. Political parties only ever change boundaries to benefit themselves. A referendum would help redress it although an independent expert would probably do a better job

I'd not be impressed if the Tories went too far the other way and engineered the boundaries to favour themselves - it should be done by the Electoral Reform people with no Government interference.

Not sure a referendum is practical though - how would you word the question?

 

[SS4]

My grandparents supported Labour. My mother couldn't care less about politics. My Dad supported the Conservatives but he wasn't really interested, to him, all Government's were the same. I chose the Conservatives as my Party through my own free will. Today, I earn a living through advising their Ministers of Parliament. Nobody told me who I had to vote for, and nobody stood me on the table and said 'You support the Tories, or else!'

I don't consider your comment as rude, I've heard it many times before. But it's incorrect all the same!

I stand corrected, it's good that you made your own choice though. My parents vote Labour without thinking about it and it's disappointing

I'd not be impressed if the Tories went too far the other way and engineered the boundaries to favour themselves - it should be done by the Electoral Reform people with no Government interference.

Not sure a referendum is practical though - how would you word the question?

Electoral reform is probably a much better way than a referendum. All I can imagine is two maps old and new with a choice of the above

 

[HST Power]

I stand corrected, it's good that you made your own choice though. My parents vote Labour without thinking about it and it's disappointing

A lot of people do that! My wife is one of them!

 

[me123]

My grandparents supported Labour. My mother couldn't care less about politics. My Dad supported the Conservatives but he wasn't really interested, to him, all Government's were the same. I chose the Conservatives as my Party through my own free will. Today, I earn a living through advising their Ministers of Parliament. Nobody told me who I had to vote for, and nobody stood me on the table and said 'You support the Tories, or else!'

I'm glad to see that you've made your own decision! I can't understand why people vote for a specific party "because we're a Labour/Tory/Whatever family". You should vote for who you agree with most; and if you agree with none of them, vote for who you disagree with the least.

What I don't understand, whoever, is people who say that they'll never change their vote (and a number of people on here have said that). I'm a pretty big SNP supporter, but I'm not a member and I don't say that I'll never vote for anyone else. Although I don't see myself voting for anyone else at the moment, I'll still look at all the candidates and make a decision. Furthermore, if I prefer another candidate over the SNP candidate, then I will vote for them. Or, for example, if I didn't think that the SNP was doing a good job in government, then I'd not vote for them. I'm slightly curious as to why some people show these very strong party alliances.

 

[HST Power]

I feel strongly allied to the Conservatives because as I said before, I've supported them from an early age and am now an employee of the Party.
I watch BBC Parliament (yes, that's slightly sad, but only now and again), reguarly check the Party website and see Prime Ministers questions on a common basis. I always examine the manifestos of other MP's and Parties, very carefully may I add, but at the end of the day, I always feel that the Conservatives are the Party who are going to do the best job and make the best decisions for Britain. Therefore, I will never change my vote.

 

[313103]

Er, why?! I seem to recall Blair's last election victory was partly down to the blatantly gerrymandered constituency boundaries which gave Labour an inbuilt electoral advantage. Time for the balance to be redressed - though I'd rather it was done independently of Government so that it didn't go too far the other way...

Of course Blair learnt his gerrymandering ways from the well known heiress of Tesco's when she ran Westminster City Council. She indeed was a close allies of the then prime minister of the country at the time. Yet that government just turned a blind eye (probably because it benefited them).
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I'd not be impressed if the Tories went too far the other way and engineered the boundaries to favour themselves - it should be done by the Electoral Reform people with no Government interference.

So you wasnt impressed then?

 

[SS4]

I feel strongly allied to the Conservatives because as I said before, I've supported them from an early age and am now an employee of the Party.
I watch BBC Parliament (yes, that's slightly sad, but only now and again), reguarly check the Party website and see Prime Ministers questions on a common basis. I always examine the manifestos of other MP's and Parties, very carefully may I add, but at the end of the day, I always feel that the Conservatives are the Party who are going to do the best job and make the best decisions for Britain. Therefore, I will never change my vote.

(bolded by me)

It says a lot about country that educating yourself about politics is considered sad

 

[Ferret]

I completely agree! So many people are completely ignorant of politics apart from the tripe they read in the Mirror or the Mail. All credit to you HST Power for taking the trouble to do thinks for yourself, and not leave it to some biased journalist to brainwash you into believing his point of view.

 

[Oswyntail]

I did a bit of canvassing and leaflet dropping a good few years back. Thankless task - you either get people who agree with your party, or.....I lost count of the number of dogs I was threatened with (and I am TERRIFIED of all dogs). But the response that stuck in my mind came after a hard evening in the rain, when I unfortunately replied to a dog threat with "Glad you believe in democracy", to which the householder slammed the door with a shout of "F*** democracy, I'm voting Labour". The whole experience was totally depressing, with such little willingness to consider differing viewpoints or even say thanks for the info. Still, if you put yourself in the firing line, you get shot at!

 

[Ferret]

(some householder said) "F*** democracy, I'm voting Labour".

That just about says it all regarding my experience of the last 13 years prior to the Coalition taking office!

 

[table38]

I'd not be impressed if the Tories went too far the other way and engineered the boundaries to favour themselves - it should be done by the Electoral Reform people with no Government interference.

I'm not sure the "Electoral Reform People" are strictly trustworthy either. Here's what they had to say about AV a few years ago before their recent Damascene conversion to become the leading lights of the "Yes" campaign:

ERS Policy on AV

The Electoral Reform Society regards AV as the best voting system when a single position is being elected. However, as AV is not a proportional system, the Society does not regard it as suitable for the election of a representative body, e.g. a parliament, council, committees, etc​

 

[me123]

(yes, that's slightly sad, but only now and again),

OK, I'll admit it, I'm also known to watch it It's not that bad, to be fair. I regularly catch PMQs and FMQs. There are sometimes interesting debates or committees on as well.

 

[Ferret]

I'm not sure the "Electoral Reform People" are strictly trustworthy either. Here's what they had to say about AV a few years ago before their recent Damascene conversion to become the leading lights of the "Yes" campaign:

Yes, but at least they shouldn't have a vested interest in constituency boundaries in the same way that political parties have.

 

[313103]

That just about says it all regarding my experience of the last 13 years prior to the Coalition taking office!

I wont let you know what my experience was of being governed by the tories in the period 1980 (i know they came to power in 79, but i started work in 80) to 1997. Like wise i wont let you what my experience will be 2010 to whenever they get kicked out.

Hopefully gerrymandering wont again be part of the agenda in Westminster again.

 

[LE Greys]

My main concern is the constituency link. One of the strengths of FPTP is that we elect representatives for specific areas, not just a bunch of political drones who simply follow the party line, which can happen in PR systems. I know this does not break the link, but I'm worried that it will begin to erode it.

 

[Wyvern]

I knew I could vote for whoever I liked and Labour would win. Sure enough Labour did win as has been the case since 1974 (when the constituency was formed in it's current state)!

The same for me but the Tories. The one time I moved to where I might have a choice they shifted the boundaries.

 

[HST Power]

I did a bit of canvassing and leaflet dropping a good few years back. Thankless task - you either get people who agree with your party, or.....I lost count of the number of dogs I was threatened with (and I am TERRIFIED of all dogs). But the response that stuck in my mind came after a hard evening in the rain, when I unfortunately replied to a dog threat with "Glad you believe in democracy", to which the householder slammed the door with a shout of "F*** democracy, I'm voting Labour". The whole experience was totally depressing, with such little willingness to consider differing viewpoints or even say thanks for the info. Still, if you put yourself in the firing line, you get shot at!

Oh God, I hated canvassing. Trudging up and down the streets handing out leaflets was not my cup of tea! Thankfully, I spent most of my time when I was a Conservative Volunteer talking to the voters and helping the MP call the shots, which is similar to what I do now for a living.
But that's not to say that I didn't encounter a fair share of angry voters! Whilst I grew up in a town where the Conservatives took the elections by landslide (Labour once finished with just 16% of then vote) we would often encounter some very difficult and tough to deal with people.
But I suppose that's politics, isn't it? It's a warzone out there!

 

[Zoe]

One of the strengths of FPTP is that we elect representatives for specific areas, not just a bunch of political drones who simply follow the party line

Many though do just follow the party line as they don't want to risk losing their position within the governmet.

 

[imagination]

I'll be voting yes as it has all the advantages of FPTP with fewer disadvantages (like the fact that FPTP encourages people to vote for a candidate they don't actually want, or that FPTP can and often does have vote splitting leading to the 3rd most popular candidate winning with a substantial majority)

One of the strengths of FPTP is that we elect representatives for specific areas, not just a bunch of political drones who simply follow the party line

AV has this exact same advantage.

Oh and btw most of the arguments the no campaign have been coming out with are so bad they are comical.

 

[Ferret]

I wont let you know what my experience was of being governed by the tories in the period 1980 (i know they came to power in 79, but i started work in 80) to 1997. Like wise i wont let you what my experience will be 2010 to whenever they get kicked out.

I started work in 2000 - and I can honestly say that my previous idea that Labour are the party of the working man has truly been swept away! I can't tell you how glad I was to see the back of them last year, and I hope it'll be a good while before we have to suffer them again. Their economic mismanagement has done more harm than I thought was possible - and they deserve a very long time out of office as a result. Still, my gut feeling is that within 3 years they'll be back to foul it up all over again. The only way I'll ever vote Labour again, is if they get rid of the two Eds and install people with some concept of fiscal responsibility at the top. Whether Cameron and Osborne are the right two people to be at the helm is open to debate, but the two clowns at the head of the Labour Party are little more than failed politicians from the previous administration who have no credible plan to sort the country out.

 

[HST Power]

I started work in 2000 - and I can honestly say that my previous idea that Labour are the party of the working man has truly been swept away! I can't tell you how glad I was to see the back of them last year, and I hope it'll be a good while before we have to suffer them again. Their economic mismanagement has done more harm than I thought was possible - and they deserve a very long time out of office as a result. Still, my gut feeling is that within 3 years they'll be back to foul it up all over again. The only way I'll ever vote Labour again, is if they get rid of the two Eds and install people with some concept of fiscal responsibility at the top. Whether Cameron and Osborne are the right two people to be at the helm is open to debate, but the two clowns at the head of the Labour Party are little more than failed politicians from the previous administration who have no credible plan to sort the country out.

Ferret, if RailForums had a like button, I would be pressing it fifty times over! Good call!
Labour are an utter disaster. They admitted to causing the economic problems and the Conservatives are clearing up after them.
Miliband is an utter joke. He has no policies of his own and is running an already tarnished party further down into the ground.
Harriet Harman was recently asked what Labour would do to fix the economy and she failed to name a single cut or saving they would make. It makes me so angry that people are booting the coaliton for these spending cuts, when at the end of the day, they are essential to get our economy back on track. If we don't make them now, the country is well and truly down the toilet, as our debt is through the roof. The Conservatives have been honest about the defecit problems and are taking proper measures to fix the issues, unlike Labour, who fiddled with their pens and gazed up at the ceiling as if waiting for an answer from God.
It doesn't matter who's in power, cuts will still be made. But if we hand the economy and public services back to Labour, the ones who greatly contributed to our problems, we're doomed. Seeing as they can't even name a single cut or saving when they are not in office, what are they going to do if they are in office? It's unbelievable. Miliband is a joker. I cannot bear to watch him or his cronies on the TV, slagging off the Tories, when he doesn't even have any economic solution himself. How did this man come to lead the party?
I've seen eight year olds with better policy.