The Alternative Vote (AV)

[Ferret]

Why would one vote Tory if one was working class? Even if Labour are Tory Lite it beats Tory full for the working class

Simple - give Labour the boot up the arse they so richly deserved. The working man is not there to fund the lifestyles of MPs who pretend they have left wing views but are actually on the make. Nor is the working class man there to fund some of the non-jobs I moaned about earlier. Nor is the working class man there to fund some of the awful waste in the Public Sector. Lord Sugar suggested getting his mates from big business in to look over the Public Sector accounts and show them how to run things on more than one occasion in recent times. It's about time he was taken up on his suggestion. Labour only have themselves to blame for their current predicament - abandon your core support at your peril....

 

[Mojo]

All stereotypes have a basis in fact. If cutting the deficit is so important then why was inheritance tax maintained? Why was the threshold for paying capital gains tax increased? Why haven't the bankers being brought to book? Why is there no effort being made to close the tax gap? Why did the Tories fight tooth and nail against increasing the threshold on which income tax is paid (one of only two real concessions to the Lib Dems - the other the ill fated AV referendum)? Answer - all these policies benefit the rich - tradition Tory backers and voters.

Or perhaps the fact that the "tax, tax, tax" belief doesn't generate economic growth, jobs, more taxes, etc. Increasing Capital Gains Tax doesn't mean you get more income; it can even be less as people decide to do their business elsewhere, or employ clever accounting tactics: http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/why-increasing-capital-gains-tax-could-actually-reduce-revenues

It should be noted that a majority of the electorate did not want a Conservative government, such is the folly of FPTP. Labour know it just as well since FPTP only ever benefits a two party system.

But the question on the ballot paper isn't "who do you not want?" As we have more than two parties then the view of the majority should win the day. I know that under FPTP the party with the most votes can still come second, but such cases are unlikely. Last May, more people voted Conservative than any other party.

I fail to understand how the Tories can improve education while cutting funding to local authorities. We've learned from the trains and utilities that private companies are only in it for themselves and profit will always come before the service they're meant to provide. The Tories didn't see this in the 80s and they don't see it now.

I don't think that privatising the trains has made things more effective (in fact the reverse); but some of these utilities do generate wealth and improved customer satisfaction. Now I don't remember what things were like before to verify the story, but I have heard the complaints particularly about BT before it was sold off. Now the UK is a world leader in telecommunications.

Far from benefitting solely greedy shareholders, some of these profits can go into our pension schemes, bonds or other investments that people on fairly modest incomes have.

Why would one vote Tory if one was working class? Even if Labour are Tory Lite it beats Tory full for the working class

Because they might be intelligent enough to want to do well for themselves and want to have the means to do exactly that. Thanks to the policies of the last Conservative government my parents were able to take themselves out of that council estate trap by being given the ability to make sensible investments to do so.

 

[radamfi]

It seems to be possible for an economy to do well whether you have high or low tax, and corresponding low or high public spending. The common Anglo-Saxon philosophy, e.g. USA, UK, Australia, is for relatively low taxation and lower public spending as a result. However, Scandinavian countries seem to have very high tax, yet also have a very high standard of living and strong economic performance.

 

[313103]

Before you comment, you'd better learn to distinguish between truth and propaganda sparked up by Labour.

The truth..... hmm. I will leave it at that. I loath the current Labour party as much as i loath the tory party so i wouldnt be taken in by their lies and spin. I think and act for myself, i also see what the tories did in the 1980s and when i still go to see my family in one town (Consett) ravaged by tory cuts then. Isee the damage that clousure of the main industry still affects in 2011 as it did when closed some 30 years ago. I see politicians for what they are and what they deliver.

I am very fortunate to have a very pro railway MP, has one of the highest attendance at Westminster, is very pasionate for his constituents, was one of only small hand full of Labour MPs that actually increased his vote at the last Election. My MP is one of the reasons why the tories are often left in 4th place and at best 3rd. I have never known a tory MP where i live, yet i live in what is a prosperous borough i mean even the elected Tory mayor lives in this borough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is utter tripe. Sorry, but it sounds right out of the 19th century (or current Labour "thought"). Where is your objective evidence? A proper analysis of the policies to which you refer, please. Why do you think so many "working class" voters vote Conservative? Or do you deny that as well?

See above for my comments on the Labour party.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, swallowing the Labour propaganda hook, line and sinker I see 313103.

Again see my comment above regarding Labour

 

[passmore]

The truth..... hmm. I will leave it at that. I loath the current Labour party as much as i loath the tory party so i wouldnt be taken in by their lies and spin. I think and act for myself, i also see what the tories did in the 1980s and when i still go to see my family in one town (Consett) ravaged by tory cuts then. Isee the damage that clousure of the main industry still affects in 2011 as it did when closed some 30 years ago. I see politicians for what they are and what they deliver.

That's the problem I outlined above. Many people believe that Tory politicians cut too fast and too hard. Many people equally believe that Labour politicians don't cut enough and we're left to watch as the structural deficit increases whilst key public sector services are protected.

It comes down to the harsh reality that we do have a structural deficit, that is not spin. Key public services like education and health will suffer if we do not do anything to remedy these deficits. It depends on which party you have the most faith to do this and whether which route is the best for Britain.

Would this have changed if the referendum swung the other way on Friday? Unlikely.

 

[HST Power]

The truth..... hmm. I will leave it at that. I loath the current Labour party as much as i loath the tory party so i wouldnt be taken in by their lies and spin.

Unfortunately, what you wrote earlier completely shoots you in the foot.

You see their agenda is to keep the minions at work on low salaries whilst they live the life of reily.

 

[313103]

Unfortunately, what you wrote earlier completely shoots you in the foot.

You see their agenda is to keep the minions at work on low salaries whilst they live the life of reily.

I was refering to the Labour Party where it has been mentioned by more then one that is where i was getting my ideology from.

 

[yorksrob]

Lord Sugar suggested getting his mates from big business in to look over the Public Sector accounts and show them how to run things on more than one occasion in recent times. It's about time he was taken up on his suggestion. Labour only have themselves to blame for their current predicament - abandon your core support at your peril....

I wonder which big business paragons of financial probity Lord Sugar has in mind. Could it be the well known mobile phone provider recently pilloried for deciding that it didn't fancy paying it's tax bill. Or perhaps Marconi, which went down the toilet after blowing all it's money on dot com shares which turned out to be pants.

Or maybe the auditors who failed to spot that millions of pounds had been lent out on dodgy overseas "sub-prime" mortgage investments.

Or maybe he was thinking about our crooked banks which have fought tooth and nail for five years not to have to compensate customers who were miss-sold payment insurance (by miss-sold I mean such niceties as selling the insurance to people whom they knew would never be eligible for a payout or not telling people they were selling it to them in the first place). They've finally given that one up yesterday.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder which big business paragons of financial probity Lord Sugar has in mind.

Well at worst they would have probably only been as a bad as our political overlords

Ah c'est la vie!

 

[junglejames]

My this is a good argument!! Tory v Labour!
David Cameron is weak and an idiot. Miliband does not fill me with confidence.

Now i could never ever vote tory (id rather shoot myself), and i have good reasons for this. Labour getting in back in 1997 was a godsend at the time, and it worked very well at first, but they eventually carried on where the tories left off. Ensuring our industry went downhill.
Blair then seemed to turn worryingly into a dictator type. I dont blame Labour fully for the economic mess we found ourselves in, as it would have happened if the tories were in power at the time (tories only do this because its natural to slate the opposition), and Labour havent actually done any worse than the tories. But its debatable if they did much better overall.

The tories though have really shown themselves up when in power. Major was weak, and an idiot, as is Cameron. Thatcher was strong, but probably too big headed.
Major privatised the railways, and we have forever seen the consequnecies ever since. Cameron wants to kill of our coastguard service, and thinks its a good idea to reduce Falmouth MRCC to daylight hours operation only. He also thinks its a good idea to kill off our only fleet of aircraft capable of taking off from aircraft carriers. Apparently this was one of his last minute changes of mind, and a very strange change of mind it was to, because nobody who actually knows anything thinks it was a good idea.
There are so many ways of saving money, but the tories are going about it the wrong way.
Yes Labour dont seem to have a direction themselves, but that is exactly how the tories are right now. Rudderless.
Right now, I dont want Cameron or Miliband in power. Or Clegg for that matter. He hasnt a clue.
All these tory party members on here though. Its quite a chilling thought.

I do find one thing funny though. If anything good ever happens to a tory, then its because of what the tories did or didnt do. Ive seen it a few times on this forum. Thatcher meant i could have my first foreign holiday etc etc (what did she pay for your tickets?). I took my first foreign holiday when labour were in power. Im not saying it was down to them though.

 

[devon_metro]

(tories only do this because its natural to slate the opposition),

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[yorksrob]

Well at worst they would have probably only been as a bad as our political overlords

Ah c'est la vie!

I guess we can't win

 

[junglejames]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

What? I never said labour didnt do it. I was purely on about the economic mess, and mentioned why the tories always blame labour for it. I clearly said its natural to slate the opposition. That is the same no matter what party it is. Not once in that little sentence of mine was i unfairly having a go at any party. So pot kettle black does not count in this instance.

 

[passmore]

What? I never said labour didnt do it. I was purely on about the economic mess, and mentioned why the tories always blame labour for it. I clearly said its natural to slate the opposition. That is the same no matter what party it is. Not once in that little sentence of mine was i unfairly having a go at any party. So pot kettle black does not count in this instance.

The trouble is this what all of the main parties do when they achieve power. Labour blamed the Major/Thatcher administration for the 'state' of the country and likewise, Cameron is doing the same.
Thus, I agree with you, it is 'natural', if that's the right word for it.

 

[Ferret]

Labour did indeed spend quite a while blaming the Tories for everything after winning power in 1997. The economy wasn't doing so badly then, but that's not to say there weren't issues, some of which Labour were entirely correct to point the finger at Thatcher/Major for.

The economic problems we have now are due to irresponsible lending by the banks, irresponsible spending by Labour and irresponsible borrowing by the public at large. There does seem to be a wide perception that Labour were solely to blame and an equally wide perception that it was all the bankers' fault, and I'm amazed that very few people actually realise that it was both of them and us that were to blame in reality! Still, as sure as eggs are eggs, new Governments always blame the old one. It'd be nice if they did spend some of their time sorting out the problems though...which in fairness the coalition are trying to do. That doesn't mean they are getting everything right though - these NHS reforms need to be rethought, right from scratch. I really hope Nick Clegg gets his way here.

 

[Oswyntail]

Labour did indeed spend quite a while blaming the Tories for everything after winning power in 1997. ....

Up to and including some comments by (I think) Jack Straw in the 2010 election campaign:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...That doesn't mean they are getting everything right though - these NHS reforms need to be rethought, right from scratch. I really hope Nick Clegg gets his way here.

Surprising, really, as the Minister responsible for some of the more contentious parts is a LibDem! Speaking as someone who has actually read large sections of the bill, i would advise against taking what is in it from reading the media!