Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

It might make some sense to use the 707s somewhere within the TSGN franchise if only for maintenance and training reasons. Would the 707 be sufficiently similar to only require drivers do a conversion course? And could facilities servicing 700s and 717s maintain them with minimal changes?

 

[hwl]

It might make some sense to use the 707s somewhere within the TSGN franchise if only for maintenance and training reasons. Would the 707 be sufficiently similar to only require drivers do a conversion course? And could facilities servicing 700s and 717s maintain them with minimal changes?

TSGN will be split so in T+GN, S+GX and possibly GN metro to TfL which leaves one sensible option and Bramling isn't going to like it! (365 replacement).

Everything is leased till the end of the current franchise and the 707s don't belong to an exisitng GTR ROSCO so no change likely till a new franchise.

 

[hwl]

It depends what happens with the Southeastern franchise surely it's not behind the realms of possibility to replace 313s with 375s and even consolidate the solely Coastway 377s diagrams to 375s and transfer them to Metro replacing 455s. Not sure if there would still be a shortage of available units and the spanner in the works would be lack of flexibility due to the OBS/Guard set up so a 375 cannot form a London bound service after a Coastway working, and whilst they have Guards based on the coast they would probably have to increase the headcount. The dilemma they have got is the replacements would always have to be a Microfleet as they obviously no longer make 377s or 387s.

The question is 1 micro fleet or 2. The 25x 377s subleased to SE could always return as well.

 

[jon0844]

TSGN will be split so in T+GN, S+GX and possibly GN metro to TfL which leaves one sensible option and Bramling isn't going to like it! (365 replacement)

I expect that even if LO takes over the GN Inners as widely expected, they'll continue to be maintained by Hornsey. There may possibly also be shared facilities for drivers at locations like WGC?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

TSGN will be split so in T+GN, S+GX and possibly GN metro to TfL which leaves one sensible option and Bramling isn't going to like it! (365 replacement).

Everything is leased till the end of the current franchise and the 707s don't belong to an exisitng GTR ROSCO so no change likely till a new franchise.

There's been suggestion from official circles though that GN (sans Moorgate) will be packaged up with the eventual LNER re-let in order to give a more stable revenue stream to whoever picks up that franchise, meaning Thameslink would form its own franchise (but would still serve many GN destinations, agreed).

 

[tsr]

TSGN will be split so in T+GN, S+GX and possibly GN metro to TfL which leaves one sensible option and Bramling isn't going to like it! (365 replacement).

Everything is leased till the end of the current franchise and the 707s don't belong to an exisitng GTR ROSCO so no change likely till a new franchise.

As has just been posted, I really wouldn’t be surprised to see GN disappear (split between TL’s successor, the long distance LNE operator, and TfL) and GX to be managed either by the TL franchise holder (to consolidate the airport services into one operator) or by itself.

It wouldn’t be especially absurd to transfer 387s from GX to whatever fragment of GN goes to LNER. The Electrostars could quite easily be given a more upmarket feel to suit use by the long-distance operator, and would tie in with some of the other stock which has been used in the area. And eventually using Desiro type stock on the GX services could also make a bit of sense - they are actually fairly well-suited for airport shuttles once they build up a bit of reliability...

I could also see potential to split off the Coastway stoppers into a sort of coastal metro brand. This could also include some of the other stopping services around the South Coast which don’t go anywhere near London. The only issue is that it may not pay its way.

If more of South London went to TfL and TL, then this would leave quite a neat Wealden-area regional franchise (which, with a bit of creativity, I think could be reinvigorated quite easily), almost entirely consisting of fast and semi-fast expresses around East Surrey, Kent and Sussex, with 377s and 171s for the time being, until such time as everything is electrified and the whole lot comes up for fleet replacement.

 

[notverydeep]

The trains are very empty leaving WGC so that certainly confirms your view. I am sure most from kings cross prefer the faster more comfortable x24 and x54 services. In fact for WGC it is quicker to use them and double back at Welwyn north. I wouldn’t risk it as the service is generally so unreliable.

Not sure how many travelling north of WGC got on at Finsbury Park. Or using the smaller stations after Royston.

I do this doubling back quite a lot (and have suitable Welwyn North season ticket to allow this). In the morning 2C06 0751 King's Cross to Cambridge at 0826 should make 1R11 0812 Baldock to King's Cross at 0833 from Welwyn North. 1R11 is a very comfortable train and I can usually get a seat. It is important to check that 1T12 0812 London Kings Cross to Ely is on time, otherwise 2C06 will be held Digswell Junction and miss 1R11. If 1T12 is late the 0832 WGC to King's Cross (2Y17) is a better bet. Another downside is that 1R11 usually heads for the 'main train-shed' at King's Cross and the walk to Saint Pancras is a little further than from platform 10, where the alternative 2C13 (0822 from WGC) is booked to arrive two minutes earlier. 1R11 is a useful back up when I'm running late, but I normally take 2C13 as I can change at Finsbury Park onto 9S13 0754 Brighton Cambridge to get to Blackfriars.

In the evening I regularly head for 1R52 1824 King's Cross to Royston, which makes 2C55 1644 Cambridge North to King's Cross at Welwyn North with a six minute connection. This saves a full 7 minutes over the alternative 2C48 King's Cross to Cambridge, more if you include time queuing at the exit gates at WGC. Although this is my 'default journey' home, there are some risks. 1R52 can be prone to slightly late starts and it works better if 1R52 starts from a high numbered platform as there are fewer possible conflicts with services arriving at King's Cross. 1R52 can also get held up by 9J54 1655 Horsham Peterborough being crossed onto the fast line at Finsbury Park. At least the walk home through Sherrards Park Woods is nice in the summer if the connection doesn't work!

9J54 is really the reason behind my choice. If this train were more reliable, I would take this from Blackfriars to Finsbury Park and change to 2C48, but 9J54 is often 6 - 8 minutes late through the core and can easily miss 2C48, so I leave work slightly ahead and walk from St. Pancras to King's Cross for 1R52. On Mondays I do the same but an hour earlier and that usually works too.

I do see a few other passengers double back like this, but quite a few more faces I used to see at WGC have switched from WGC to Welwyn North to avoid the slower post May 2018 journeys from WGC and take advantage of the faster journeys from Welwyn North.

This Monday, I found a novel way for it all to go wrong. The train to Welwyn North was on time, the return train was shown on Real Time Trains as on time. Only when I got to Welwyn North, the return train (2C51 1644 Cambridge North to King's Cross) was shown as Cancelled, despite being at Knebworth according to the Open Train Times map. The next two trains to King's Cross were also shown as cancelled. Faced with an open ended delay, I asked (along with another passenger) what was happening. The booking clerk and dispatcher had no idea, and the former called control to be told that there had been a diesel spill earlier and Up trains were not stopping (another class 180 no doubt). This came as a surprise to both the dispatcher and the booking clerk, neither of whom had been told this. Sure enough 2C51 crawled slowly past (the signal on the viaduct was red) but didn't stop and I had no option but to go further north to Knebworth for the train back to WGC half an hour after 2C51.

I would be interested in the logic of spilt diesel fuel being sufficient a hazard to close a platform to trains stopping, but not so hazardous to prevent electric trains being allowed to pass at slow or line speed and the platform to still be accessed by both passengers and staff and further it not being necessary to advise the station staff that the hazard was there at all. Whilst I presume that the decision was taken (presumably by a Network Rail Mobile Operations Manager) for sensible reasons, could they (or GTR control if it was they who were advised by the MOM) not at least have provided a basic explanation for their station colleagues to offer passengers?

I know I don’t know the driver diagrams. But I will never understand why let’s say the 1221 leaves kings cross 10 minutes late why it is now fast to Stevenage? Why put in the 5 mins dwell at Finsbury Park, the 3 mins at WGC and have longer sectional times if you are going to skip at the smallest delay.

In addition to having extra time in the above locations several of the peak trains are booked to catch up a Moorgate to WGC train and crawl behind it from Potters Bar to WGC - often leading to announcements about the slow running from drivers or complaints in phone conversations about delays - neither realizing that it is supposed to be like this. I have been on 2C48 1821 King's Cross to Cambridge when it has left 10 minutes late and followed its booked route and stopping pattern and still arrived at WGC on time!

 

[hwl]

As has just been posted, I really wouldn’t be surprised to see GN disappear (split between TL’s successor, the long distance LNE operator, and TfL) and GX to be managed either by the TL franchise holder (to consolidate the airport services into one operator) or by itself.

It wouldn’t be especially absurd to transfer 387s from GX to whatever fragment of GN goes to LNER. The Electrostars could quite easily be given a more upmarket feel to suit use by the long-distance operator, and would tie in with some of the other stock which has been used in the area. And eventually using Desiro type stock on the GX services could also make a bit of sense - they are actually fairly well-suited for airport shuttles once they build up a bit of reliability...

I could also see potential to split off the Coastway stoppers into a sort of coastal metro brand. This could also include some of the other stopping services around the South Coast which don’t go anywhere near London. The only issue is that it may not pay its way.

If more of South London went to TfL and TL, then this would leave quite a neat Wealden-area regional franchise (which, with a bit of creativity, I think could be reinvigorated quite easily), almost entirely consisting of fast and semi-fast expresses around East Surrey, Kent and Sussex, with 377s and 171s for the time being, until such time as everything is electrified and the whole lot comes up for fleet replacement.

Keeping Southern and Gatex as an entity with the current size work quite well financially so I can't see DfT wanting to play too much (pays its way).
TfL can't afford to do any expensive take overs now so I wouldn't expect much change in "southern land". Anything other than GN inners post 313 replacement is too expensive as they don't have the cash to invest.

 

[samuelmorris]

With the budgetary crisis at TfL, I can't see any new additions to their routes for a fair while yet, probably not until the mid-20s. At this rate even when the DfT break TSGN up, I doubt TfL will be in any position to take any of it off them.

 

[hwl]

With the budgetary crisis at TfL, I can't see any new additions to their routes for a fair while yet, probably not until the mid-20s. At this rate even when the DfT break TSGN up, I doubt TfL will be in any position to take any of it off them.

GN Moorgate and nothing more as it won't need much investment.

 

[Hadders]

I don't agree with the Cambridge and Kings Lynn services going over to LNER.

It would cause issues when disruption happens. Adding additional calls into a Cambridge Cruiser service is relatively easy to do at the moment if a semi fast is cancelled but would be problematic if operators were split.
It would cause stock issues, at the moment a stock from a semi fast can also be used on a cruiser if needed. This flexibility would be lost.
Then there would be the inevitable mess when it comes to fares. If GTR continued to own the flow then LNER would introduce their own operator specific fares which would undercut the Any Permitted one. That would lead to the farcical situation where a ticket on the non-stop service would be cheaper than one on the semi fast or slow. Unless an exception was made then GTR would not be able to introduce its own operator specific fare.

 

[GoatSarah]

The semi fasts will all eventually be 700/1s via the core (Brighton services). Seems unlikely the stock could be used to run KGX-CBG expresses.

 

[bramling]

I don't agree with the Cambridge and Kings Lynn services going over to LNER.

It would cause issues when disruption happens. Adding additional calls into a Cambridge Cruiser service is relatively easy to do at the moment if a semi fast is cancelled but would be problematic if operators were split.
It would cause stock issues, at the moment a stock from a semi fast can also be used on a cruiser if needed. This flexibility would be lost.
Then there would be the inevitable mess when it comes to fares. If GTR continued to own the flow then LNER would introduce their own operator specific fares which would undercut the Any Permitted one. That would lead to the farcical situation where a ticket on the non-stop service would be cheaper than one on the semi fast or slow. Unless an exception was made then GTR would not be able to introduce its own operator specific fare.

I think they might be better to go to a FCC-style setup. That seemed to work tolerably well.

 

[Hadders]

The semi fasts will all eventually be 700/1s via the core (Brighton services). Seems unlikely the stock could be used to run KGX-CBG expresses.

Agree when it’s all going fine but severely limits options when there’s disruption.

 

[GoatSarah]

Agree when it’s all going fine but severely limits options when there’s disruption.

Well 700/1s can’t use platforms 9-11 at KGX and can only use 1, 7 and 8 at CBG.

And they’re needed for Brighton services.

So the potential for them to be emergency replacements for the fasts is low even if they’re part of the same franchise.

 

[Hadders]

It’s not just rolling stock - you’d lose driver flexibility as well.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There's been suggestion from official circles though that GN (sans Moorgate) will be packaged up with the eventual LNER re-let in order to give a more stable revenue stream to whoever picks up that franchise, meaning Thameslink would form its own franchise (but would still serve many GN destinations, agreed).

Are those new Azumas still going to be cleared to Kings Lynn? That might give a clue to the intentions if that is still the case

 

[bramling]

So another day and another ThamesLink/ shambles, this time signal problems south of the river.

And a poor regulating decision just happened at Hitchin. 9J31, running about 20 late, routed behind 2C33 despite the latter having 4 minutes spare time between Hitchin and Woolmer Green. 9J31 then put on the up fast at Stevenage, delaying 1T29 behind it, and both of these promptly delaying 2C33 through Woolmer Green.

So much for class 9 services being the solution to all problems!

 

[samuelmorris]

My friend who uses the Sutton loop had to bus divert this morning due to a cancellation only announced after the service was due to call. According to Raildar it omitted her stop, but RTT suggests otherwise. Not sure what to make of that, but it certainly adds weight to the 'GTR don't deal with informing with the customer' argument, as if more were needed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So another day and another ThamesLink/ shambles, this time signal problems south of the river.

And a poor regulating decision just happened at Hitchin. 9J31, running about 20 late, routed behind 2C33 despite the latter having 4 minutes spare time between Hitchin and Woolmer Green. 9J31 then put on the up fast at Stevenage, delaying 1T29 behind it, and both of these promptly delaying 2C33 through Woolmer Green.

So much for class 9 services being the solution to all problems!

Tell me about it - nothing allowed to leave southbound from SAC at 0915 (trying to get to Paddington , which we did - only to find everything cancelled from there due to "someone" slicing through the signalling cables and dropping everything to red between OOC and Padd) - we eventually set off and just about got there thanks only to TfL playing a winner on the JLE and Bakerloo. They were basically holding trains at stations north of Kentish Town and sparingly letting trains move on , though everything I could see on the Track Maps was a class 9 (bar the odd class 5) - backed up all over the place north of SAC as well.

So thanks to infrastructure issues I , my wife and many others (including a fellow passenger on TLK on route for a critical interview got royally stuffed) - as indeed some VIP's out of Paddington) - we were on a leisure outing so not the end of the world.

Praise for the driver on the 0915 ex SAC to Orpington. Excellent announcements and he did his very best when he was allowed to move.

 

[bramling]

Tell me about it - nothing allowed to leave southbound from SAC at 0915 (trying to get to Paddington , which we did - only to find everything cancelled from there due to "someone" slicing through the signalling cables and dropping everything to red between OOC and Padd) - we eventually set off and just about got there thanks only to TfL playing a winner on the JLE and Bakerloo. They were basically holding trains at stations north of Kentish Town and sparingly letting trains move on , though everything I could see on the Track Maps was a class 9 (bar the odd class 5) - backed up all over the place north of SAC as well.

So thanks to infrastructure issues I , my wife and many others (including a fellow passenger on TLK on route for a critical interview got royally stuffed) - as indeed some VIP's out of Paddington) - we were on a leisure outing so not the end of the world.

Praise for the driver on the 0915 ex SAC to Orpington. Excellent announcements and he did his very best when he was allowed to move.

Who needs an EU backstop, we need a ThamesLink/ backstop!

I see 9J33 ran non-stop from Peterborough to London, so effectively ECS. It would be all okay if it wasn't for those pesky passengers!

 

[samuelmorris]

Who needs an EU backstop, we need a ThamesLink/ backstop!

I see 9J33 ran non-stop from Peterborough to London, so effectively ECS. It would be all okay if it wasn't for those pesky passengers!

and saved a mere 2 minutes by doing so...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Who needs an EU backstop, we need a ThamesLink/ backstop!

I see 9J33 ran non-stop from Peterborough to London, so effectively ECS. It would be all okay if it wasn't for those pesky passengers!

My biggest fear this am was that we would be detrained at Mill Hill or Hendon and the set empty to Cricklewood CS , - or regulated to run non stop to London SPX.

In any case , that would have been terminal for us and the other passengers on board - many of which were re-scheduling appointments etc. At least they let the service run , making all booked calls.

Little did we know what Paddington was going to deliver.....

 

[Failed Unit]

and saved a mere 2 minutes by doing so...

As you have guessed. That is my biggest issue with the GTT “we must skip stops if the train is more than 5 mins late” policy. The amount of times the train either makes up no time or loses further time does frustrate us that are left behind.

Not much point in skipping stops when you are following an all stations train on the slow.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As you have guessed. That is my biggest issue with the GTT “we must skip stops if the train is more than 5 mins late” policy. The amount of times the train either makes up no time or loses further time does frustrate us that are left behind.

Not much point in skipping stops when you are following an all stations train on the slow.

As a hugely experienced and very senior Operations Manager once said , of his experiences on the railway as Divisional Manager Beckenham and later Regional Operations Manager Waterloo, - once the peak is rolling and a disruption occurs , (unless a fatal and very serious one) - best to let it run and not intervene , (cue - people have to get to work , school etc etc) - the quality of the signalmen , drivers and guards and station staff etc will balance things out and restore it by the early afternoon and allow things to restore. Sounds facile - but someone who ran the most complex and challenging bits of the UK railway , knew his stuff and his staff.

 

[Failed Unit]

As a hugely experienced and very senior Operations Manager once said , of his experiences on the railway as Divisional Manager Beckenham and later Regional Operations Manager Waterloo, - once the peak is rolling and a disruption occurs , (unless a fatal and very serious one) - best to let it run and not intervene , (cue - people have to get to work , school etc etc) - the quality of the signalmen , drivers and guards and station staff etc will balance things out and restore it by the early afternoon and allow things to restore. Sounds facile - but someone who ran the most complex and challenging bits of the UK railway , knew his stuff and his staff.

Very true. You do sometimes wonder if GTR control and network rail signallers talk to each other. But on the GN side we noticed when everything was moved to three bridges. Poor signallers.

 

[vtiman]

I do this doubling back quite a lot (and have suitable Welwyn North season ticket to allow this). In the morning 2C06 0751 King's Cross to Cambridge at 0826 should make 1R11 0812 Baldock to King's Cross at 0833 from Welwyn North. 1R11 is a very comfortable train and I can usually get a seat. It is important to check that 1T12 0812 London Kings Cross to Ely is on time, otherwise 2C06 will be held Digswell Junction and miss 1R11. If 1T12 is late the 0832 WGC to King's Cross (2Y17) is a better bet. Another downside is that 1R11 usually heads for the 'main train-shed' at King's Cross and the walk to Saint Pancras is a little further than from platform 10, where the alternative 2C13 (0822 from WGC) is booked to arrive two minutes earlier. 1R11 is a useful back up when I'm running late, but I normally take 2C13 as I can change at Finsbury Park onto 9S13 0754 Brighton Cambridge to get to Blackfriars.

In the evening I regularly head for 1R52 1824 King's Cross to Royston, which makes 2C55 1644 Cambridge North to King's Cross at Welwyn North with a six minute connection. This saves a full 7 minutes over the alternative 2C48 King's Cross to Cambridge, more if you include time queuing at the exit gates at WGC. Although this is my 'default journey' home, there are some risks. 1R52 can be prone to slightly late starts and it works better if 1R52 starts from a high numbered platform as there are fewer possible conflicts with services arriving at King's Cross. 1R52 can also get held up by 9J54 1655 Horsham Peterborough being crossed onto the fast line at Finsbury Park. At least the walk home through Sherrards Park Woods is nice in the summer if the connection doesn't work!

9J54 is really the reason behind my choice. If this train were more reliable, I would take this from Blackfriars to Finsbury Park and change to 2C48, but 9J54 is often 6 - 8 minutes late through the core and can easily miss 2C48, so I leave work slightly ahead and walk from St. Pancras to King's Cross for 1R52. On Mondays I do the same but an hour earlier and that usually works too.

I do see a few other passengers double back like this, but quite a few more faces I used to see at WGC have switched from WGC to Welwyn North to avoid the slower post May 2018 journeys from WGC and take advantage of the faster journeys from Welwyn North.

This Monday, I found a novel way for it all to go wrong. The train to Welwyn North was on time, the return train was shown on Real Time Trains as on time. Only when I got to Welwyn North, the return train (2C51 1644 Cambridge North to King's Cross) was shown as Cancelled, despite being at Knebworth according to the Open Train Times map. The next two trains to King's Cross were also shown as cancelled. Faced with an open ended delay, I asked (along with another passenger) what was happening. The booking clerk and dispatcher had no idea, and the former called control to be told that there had been a diesel spill earlier and Up trains were not stopping (another class 180 no doubt). This came as a surprise to both the dispatcher and the booking clerk, neither of whom had been told this. Sure enough 2C51 crawled slowly past (the signal on the viaduct was red) but didn't stop and I had no option but to go further north to Knebworth for the train back to WGC half an hour after 2C51.

I would be interested in the logic of spilt diesel fuel being sufficient a hazard to close a platform to trains stopping, but not so hazardous to prevent electric trains being allowed to pass at slow or line speed and the platform to still be accessed by both passengers and staff and further it not being necessary to advise the station staff that the hazard was there at all. Whilst I presume that the decision was taken (presumably by a Network Rail Mobile Operations Manager) for sensible reasons, could they (or GTR control if it was they who were advised by the MOM) not at least have provided a basic explanation for their station colleagues to offer passengers?



In addition to having extra time in the above locations several of the peak trains are booked to catch up a Moorgate to WGC train and crawl behind it from Potters Bar to WGC - often leading to announcements about the slow running from drivers or complaints in phone conversations about delays - neither realizing that it is supposed to be like this. I have been on 2C48 1821 King's Cross to Cambridge when it has left 10 minutes late and followed its booked route and stopping pattern and still arrived at WGC on time!

I have not been on the train much since the fiasco and have avoided going into London on the train at weekends as we have not had a train to come back on. I regularly read railforums but rarely comment as am usually haunting the Guardian !

I walk my dog through the woods and sometimes up to Harmer Green via the viaduct and by or in the pub then up past the Welwyn Tunnels. In the evenings i often walk along Lisles Lane where there is usually in the evenings a train held at red. The other night a 700 was held for a few minutes to allow a 387 and a 365 through. I guess maybe the 700 was stopping at Welwyn North.

I have wondered if now if would be quicker and more pleasant to walk to and from Welwyn North rather than the Howard Centre. I wondered if at some point trains using the core might stop there. I would tend to go to KGX at the moment then walk through to STP as it’s quick and you are more likely to get a train. There is only one train you can connect into without waiting ages at FPK then you are stuck.

Finally you may be a neighbour if you are near the woods in wgc. Not giving my address obviously or trying to chat you up haha. I have to go as my terrier wants to go out !

 

[vtiman]

My friend who uses the Sutton loop had to bus divert this morning due to a cancellation only announced after the service was due to call. According to Raildar it omitted her stop, but RTT suggests otherwise. Not sure what to make of that, but it certainly adds weight to the 'GTR don't deal with informing with the customer' argument, as if more were needed.

Last year I went to Wembley Arena. I got the train from WGC to Kgc and walked through to STP and got on the 700 that rolled in that was allegedly stopping at West Hampstead. As there was a discrepancy with the announcements and the trains were delayed I got off again.

Good thing as I would have stormed and probably raged through every station as the next stop was Snorbens.

 

[samuelmorris]

Last year I went to Wembley Arena. I got the train from WGC to Kgc and walked through to STP and got on the 700 that rolled in that was allegedly stopping at West Hampstead. As there was a discrepancy with the announcements and the trains were delayed I got off again.

Good thing as I would have stormed and probably raged through every station as the next stop was Snorbens.

I have boarded a train at a station with no visible platform display at the part of the platform where the front of the train stops, and with the train's internal PIS disabled. Only checked RTT after I boarded it to discover it wasn't actually stopping (contrary to typical convention off-peak, but not contrary to the timetable) and I ended up making a 30 mile unnecessary round trip into London and back. If you're not sure, it's wise not to board!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Last year I went to Wembley Arena. I got the train from WGC to Kgc and walked through to STP and got on the 700 that rolled in that was allegedly stopping at West Hampstead. As there was a discrepancy with the announcements and the trains were delayed I got off again.

Good thing as I would have stormed and probably raged through every station as the next stop was Snorbens.

There are very frequent instances of the public - even under a normal timetable of people going inadvertently to St Albans. The staff always direct them to platform 1 for the next southbound local. Not seen an intending Stevenage passenger yet....but it will happen.