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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Kanrakuq

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I understand that there was a serious incident at Gatwick, but the tragedy of that aside, speaking logistically, people trying to use the trains from Hitchin and northwards, or get there from London, now have no train service during the evening rush hour (edit: actually there are some northbound trains now, I assume ones that hadn't gone into the core and they could send into Kings Cross instead) because of something that happened 70 miles away. Hitchin will get the handful of trains that leave from Kings Cross, the other stations probably won't even get that. Surely at some point they're going to have to rethink running virtually everything through the core?
 
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Bedpan

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On the MML side the trains seem to have been, as far as I could see from the Harpenden departures board, running reasonably well, all things considered, but the Brighton/Gatwicks were terminating at Blackfriars. Not sure how well things actually worked in the core, but they seem to have slotted in the Blackfriars terminators between the Rainhams, Suttons etc., no doubt helped though by the reduced frequencies of these. Anybody on here able to comment?
 

Mauve

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I know there was a different incident earlier, one that was much more disruptive than this, but I was on the Horsham-Peterborough train that broke down just outside Potters Bar this afternoon around 1340, blocking the down fast line for a while.

When we stopped and the driver announced that a fire alarm had been activated I thought we might be stuck for hours. However, compared to what I've come to expect from GTR it actually seemed to be handled quite well. The driver made useful announcements at regular intervals. The train crawled into Potters Bar and everyone was detrained safely from a 12 car train onto a short platform via one door onto the next Peterborough train. Plenty of staff around to assist. When waiting to get off the broken down train I was quite worried that we'd all just be kicked off and that people would just be expected to know they needed to get a Cambridge train and change at Stevenage or Hitchin, so the following train stopping was a big positive response. Would not have expected that to happen back in June or July.

The bit that annoyed me slightly was the revenue protection officer getting on at Sandy and wanting to do a full ticket inspection. Not their fault, but not the wisest of ideas on a train that was packed until Biggleswade one station before with passengers who were annoyed at the delay.

The incident did highlight again the issue that passengers just don't move all the way down the train though, even with the wide, open layout of the class 700s. The faulty train emptied everyone into the front coach of the following train, but rather than moving towards the rear everyone stayed in the front few coaches. The result was that the front of the replacement train was overcrowded, but the rear half was relatively empty.

Again, small disruption compared to what tragically happened later, but hopefully an example that not everything GTR do is awful. If only they could sort out the reliability of the 700s.
 

greyman42

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The incident did highlight again the issue that passengers just don't move all the way down the train though, even with the wide, open layout of the class 700s. The faulty train emptied everyone into the front coach of the following train, but rather than moving towards the rear everyone stayed in the front few coaches. The result was that the front of the replacement train was overcrowded, but the rear half was relatively empty.
Why don't they move down to an emptier part of the train? Is it not obvious? Am I missing something here?
 
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Is it possible it's as simple as, 'this train is actually here so I had better board it in case the later but faster one doesn't show up'?

I choose to have a nice relaxed journey with a choice of seat on the 0704 stopper from Hitchin rather than wait for a busy 0711 which gets to Finsbury Park before the stopper. Although I’ve not caught it I think the 0726 Brighton service might be quieter but more liable to cancellation.
 

OwenB

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Perhaps they are modern people ?
In other words.. expect everything to be done for them and unable to think for themselves.
Other people in the way, unwilling to stand in gangways with only a seat handle to hold, only going a stop or two, people sitting with their legs in the aisle because of no legroom on the 700s so more difficult to move down the train when busy. In short, there's many practical reasons that aren't anything to do with laziness or however you're trying to frame it.
 

jopsuk

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Seem to be having Driver availability issues on the GN this weekend- yesterday on Moorgate, today on Cambridge services
 

Hadders

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I choose to have a nice relaxed journey with a choice of seat on the 0704 stopper from Hitchin rather than wait for a busy 0711 which gets to Finsbury Park before the stopper. Although I’ve not caught it I think the 0726 Brighton service might be quieter but more liable to cancellation.

I can assure you that the 0726 (0732 from Stevenage) is not a quieter train once it leaves Stevenage! In the old timetable the 0736 from Stevenage was one of 'the' Stevenage commuter trains. The 0732 took over this but ended up being removed as a result of the shambles. Now it's back it's taken a few weeks for everyone to realise but it's pretty much back to its previous levels of patronage. You can probably get a seat at Hitchin but you've got no chance at Stevenage.
 

jon0844

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Other people in the way, unwilling to stand in gangways with only a seat handle to hold, only going a stop or two, people sitting with their legs in the aisle because of no legroom on the 700s so more difficult to move down the train when busy. In short, there's many practical reasons that aren't anything to do with laziness or however you're trying to frame it.

It's true people don't move along but over time they do start to be brave. It took ages on the Thameslink side so probably will elsewhere where 700s are relatively new. Even first class being declassified at the back hasn't caught on fully, yet.

I recall when they had 12 car trains stopping at Hatfield to shuttle people from a festival and even with multiple PA announcements and loud hailers, people wouldn't walk along. A few did, but perhaps 10 or 20, and so the train went out with pretty much four empty coaches and people left on the platform as the train couldn't wait any longer.

The train in this case wasn't even moving!
 

bramling

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I can assure you that the 0726 (0732 from Stevenage) is not a quieter train once it leaves Stevenage! In the old timetable the 0736 from Stevenage was one of 'the' Stevenage commuter trains. The 0732 took over this but ended up being removed as a result of the shambles. Now it's back it's taken a few weeks for everyone to realise but it's pretty much back to its previous levels of patronage. You can probably get a seat at Hitchin but you've got no chance at Stevenage.

Now things have settled down a little, what are the loadings on the morning peak Royston / Baldock 365s proving to be?

My guess would be most seats taken after Hitchin. Anyone got any real-life experience?

Likewise on the Peterborough 365/387 services?
 

Hadders

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I don't know about the Royston/Baldock starters but I quite often get the 1806 Peterborough service off KGX which is non stop to Stevenage. 12-cars and plenty of seats in the front couple of carriages (reminds me of the old 1753 Royston Express).

And it's a 365 :D
 

Steve Harris

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Other people in the way, unwilling to stand in gangways with only a seat handle to hold, only going a stop or two, people sitting with their legs in the aisle because of no legroom on the 700s so more difficult to move down the train when busy. In short, there's many practical reasons that aren't anything to do with laziness or however you're trying to frame it.

Unfortunately only 1 of the reasons you give (going a stop or two) is valid in my book. The rest i see as laziness (unless they have a disability or similar which prevents them).

As I certainly have asked people to move there legs before so i can get past in a busy train.

And I don't know if being unable, unwilling or undisciplined to think for yourself is actually classed as laziness. As that was the point i was trying to make.

I see it in various forms each day and not just on the railways i might add.

Anyway, it seems we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.
 

Kanrakuq

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I imagine the people who don't like being in a busy carriage move down to a quieter one, and those who accept being in the presence of other humans when outside stay where they are.
 

jon0844

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I imagine the people who don't like being in a busy carriage move down to a quieter one, and those who accept being in the presence of other humans when outside stay where they are.

But some coaches can be crush loaded and the ends of the train are almost empty. On an open gangway train with screens showing colour coded coaches that's not just people being extra social.
 

OwenB

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Quite a few cancellations this morning owing to lack of available drivers. We're back here...
 

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OwenB

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But some coaches can be crush loaded and the ends of the train are almost empty. On an open gangway train with screens showing colour coded coaches that's not just people being extra social.
On the 8.37 HAT-KGX. I've been observing the display screen - they have noticeably sped up the cycle meaning it's very easy to miss the loading information. In fact, non regular travellers may not be aware that this information is displayed. It displays the destination and stopping info for much longer than any of the other items it cycles through, this could be to do with being on a stopper with more instances that the cycle is stopped to show this info to people just getting on.
 

frediculous

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I use a 700 every morning from Bromley South and I have never seen the loading indicators used. They sometimes show what carriage we are in, but never how loaded they are (all seats taken at Bromley, crush loaded by Nunhead). However, when using one from Strood a few weekends ago, I did see the loading indicator used.

Do they not display if the train is evenly loaded throughout?
 

TFN

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I use a 700 every morning from Bromley South and I have never seen the loading indicators used. They sometimes show what carriage we are in, but never how loaded they are (all seats taken at Bromley, crush loaded by Nunhead). However, when using one from Strood a few weekends ago, I did see the loading indicator used.

Do they not display if the train is evenly loaded throughout?

I take it from Catford every morning as well. The believe the problem is that the stations on the Catford Loop are too close together to properly cycle through. You always see the load indicator for the first time just after Denmark Hill when you enter the Loughborough Junction curve heading towards Elephant & Castle.
 

frediculous

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I take it from Catford every morning as well. The believe the problem is that the stations on the Catford Loop are too close together to properly cycle through. You always see the load indicator for the first time just after Denmark Hill when you enter the Loughborough Junction curve heading towards Elephant & Castle.
Ahhh, I get off at Denmark Hill so that's why I never see it!
 

bramling

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But some coaches can be crush loaded and the ends of the train are almost empty. On an open gangway train with screens showing colour coded coaches that's not just people being extra social.

I don’t see why it should come as a surprise to anyone.

The sad reality is some people are simply too stupid to see beyond the end of their own nose. It’s the same types who will stop immediately on stepping off an escalator, hog the middle lane on a motorway, or arrive on a station platform and promptly park themselves and belongings right across the entrance.

Or, even worse, will arrive on a station platform as part of a constant stream of people, ignore announcements saying the train doors are about to close, get caught in the doors, then complain that it was terrible and not their fault. So, in other words, the train and 1,000 other people should wait for *them*.

Sorry if this offends anyone but reality is some people are simply dumb - so looking for a logic is worthless as there probably isn’t one.

We wouldn’t need walk-through trains with their negative effect on comfort if some people could grasp the simple fact that a train is up to 12 carriages long.
 

ComUtoR

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ignore announcements saying the train doors are about to close, get caught in the doors, then complain that it was terrible and not their fault.

Na, lift doors do it so train doors do the same....


Sorry if this offends anyone but reality is some people are simply dumb - so looking for a logic is worthless as there probably isn’t one.

Passenger behavior weirds me out most days but there is a logic to not moving down the train. IF you see one carriage as full and packed, there is an assumption that the rest of the train is also full. Moving down the train is therefore pointless and will also mean that you may even be worse off. The risk of moving is greater than the discomfort of staying. The is a psychological phenomenon about this but for the life of my I forget the theory.
 

jon0844

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IF you see one carriage as full and packed, there is an assumption that the rest of the train is also full. Moving down the train is therefore pointless and will also mean that you may even be worse off. The risk of moving is greater than the discomfort of staying. The is a psychological phenomenon about this but for the life of my I forget the theory.

Clearly people don't trust the screens then, which 'prove' there is more space elsewhere on the train.

I get that some people won't move, and if nobody else will then that further hinders movement, but technology is trying to encourage people to give something a go. I think over time it has worked on the Thameslink side and will on the GN side, as well as other areas which now have 700s.

At the very least, some people will ask others to move down or make more of an effort to push through.. which on a 700 isn't that difficult on account of the very wide aisles.
 

bramling

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Passenger behavior weirds me out most days but there is a logic to not moving down the train. IF you see one carriage as full and packed, there is an assumption that the rest of the train is also full. Moving down the train is therefore pointless and will also mean that you may even be worse off. The risk of moving is greater than the discomfort of staying. The is a psychological phenomenon about this but for the life of my I forget the theory.

I can get that, however it’s common for people to fail to move down even when emptier parts of the train are clearly visible - if they bothered to look of course. *Some* may well have reasons, like wanting to be in the right place for their exit, however this doesn’t give a rational explanation for many others to do the same, except blind copying.

In fact, the latter may well come closest to providing an explanation. I could go out for the day and stand staring at a bare concrete wall for no reason. I guarantee that it wouldn’t be long before someone passing stops and starts taking an interest in the same blank wall.
 

bramling

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Clearly people don't trust the screens then, which 'prove' there is more space elsewhere on the train.

This logical view assumes:

(1) That people look at the screens
(2) That they actually understand the simple information being presented to them
(3) That they believe the information being presented to them
(4) That they don’t take an “I’m all right” attitude and refuse to budge
(5) That people think at all

Some dangerous assumptions there! ;)

I’ll never forget being on a (unmanned) station platform somewhere in Greater Manchester a few years ago taking some pictures of buildings. It was a Sunday, there were posters plastered everywhere about engineering works, works trains were visible further down the line, contractors were swarming the line, the CIS clearly said no trains due to engineering works, and most tellingly of all the track was dug up and missing. Yet as the scheduled time of what would have been a train approached, a crowd of people started patiently gathering on the platform, then looking at the watches as time came and went, then one or two started peering down the line to see if they could see their train coming. Next they all started chatting amongst themselves wondering what had become of the train!
 

fusionblue

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All Rainham services have been cancelled between Deptford and Dartford because of a signalling fault. Trains are diverted another route. Does anyone know which way?
 

JonathanH

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All Rainham services have been cancelled between Deptford and Dartford because of a signalling fault. Trains are diverted another route. Does anyone know which way?

Short term issue but looks like 9P33 1248 Luton to Rainham went via Bexleyheath judging by the fact that it regained its route at Crayford Creek Junction and not Dartford Junction.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64394/2018/09/25/advanced

The following one 9P37 has taken the route via Deptford.
 

Downthelane

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A 365 standing in for the modern train on the 17.21 KGX-CBG.

Looks a poor relation in terms of ride and space.

Hopefully a one off.
 

jon0844

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A 365 standing in for the modern train on the 17.21 KGX-CBG.

Looks a poor relation in terms of ride and space.

Hopefully a one off.

It's good that people have taken to the 700s despite the seats. People do seem to praise them now, presumably because they always appear less crowded than a 365 and even more so the 387s.

I think the 717s will be very well loved for this reason.
 

Downthelane

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It's good that people have taken to the 700s despite the seats. People do seem to praise them now, presumably because they always appear less crowded than a 365 and even more so the 387s.

I think the 717s will be very well loved for this reason.

Agreed, the 365 feels claustrophobic in comparison, poorly ventilated and slow to exit.
 
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