Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[BRX]

Things took rather a turn for the worse between Denmark Hill and Clapham High St on the Atlantic Lines, near the earlier fire, due to previously unknown cable damage.

London Overground 9G49 1734 Dalston Jn - Clapham Jn became stranded away from stations for the whole night after the power supply voltage dropped from 750ish to 500, which meant it lost its ability to move and eventually meant that basically all the electronics died.

After about 3 and a half hours, with a rescue train having also lost power, the passengers were removed in a side-to-side evacuation and supplied with medical treatment and assistance at Denmark Hill. The failed train was not fully clear of the route until about 0830 this morning, in part due to the stranded train having to be resurrected, which took a very long time. By this point, cable repairs had long been completed and the line could reopen when the stock was gone.

In fact here is that rescue process taking place last night...

 

[hwl]

...
Network Rail and UK Power Networks have had some confusion over whose cable it actually is, and it also seems to have taken quite a while to switch it off. ...

Very unusually (a historic deal aligning with the 1909 AC electrification @ 6.6kV 16.6Hz) there are lots of UKPN cables for non rail power distribution at 132 and 33kV that run along the South London Line west of Surrey Canal (Road) to multiple smaller sub-stations e.g. Chadwick Road just west of Peckham Rye and Bengeworth Road just out the back of KCH. (Were fed from Deptford power station originally)

They keep getting forgotten about till they are rediscovered for example the first attempt at the lift shafts for Denmark Hill...

The 132kV cables are extremely ancient and in very dubious state hence everyones first bet might be one of the 132kV cables going up!

If there is a place for confusion in the UK between NR and a DNO as to whose cable it is, it will be on the South London Line.

 

[theageofthetra]

In fact here is that rescue process taking place last night...

How long were they stuck there for with no toilets?

 

[BRX]

How long were they stuck there for with no toilets?

About 3.5 hours, as @tsr said above.

 

[samuelmorris]

As some of you may know - we had a meet the manager session at Kings Cross today.

GTR managers were not really wanting to answer the question "When will you start running trains at weekends?"

I got many sound bites such as.
"4 Extra peak trains will be running at the end of the month" - great but that isn't the weekend
"We would rather give you a 1 train per hour service at the weekend you can rely on rather than the full timetable which you can't" - great but we can't rely on the weekend service and often have large gaps.
"We have managed to run several days recently at a PPM of 90% or more" - Wonderful - you are back at pre-May levels - this should be the normal not the exception.

They did say that people South of the Thames use Southern now so you have overcrowded southern services and nearly empty Thameslink ones as no-body trusts Thameslink.

However they did say they hoped (and this is not a commitment) that the full May timetable will be running by the December timetable change and that they expect the increase in services planned in May 2019 to take place (such as the WGC - Sevenoaks via core service)

We will see. It did amaze me how they avoided answering a simple question and needed Jeremy Paxman style probing to get the "December" maybe answer.

Simple reason for that, because it won't be happening any time soon. If it was, they would be making a big deal about it. I'm interested to see when they increase the Sutton loop from 1tph off-peak weekdays as I think it's still pretty appalling that an inner suburban service is still offering a 1tph service, 4 months after the disruption started.

 

[theageofthetra]

About 3.5 hours, as @tsr said above.

So another unacceptable length of time that close to a station. Will there be an enquiry into it?

 

[BRX]

So another unacceptable length of time that close to a station. Will there be an enquiry into it?

I don't know ... what do you think should have been done differently?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I don't know ... what do you think should have been done differently?

Perhaps you think the passengers should have been left on the train all night until the faults were fixed?

 

[BRX]

Perhaps you think the passengers should have been left on the train all night until the faults were fixed?

I think they should have been taken off as soon as reasonably possible - but I can also see that this is not entirely straightforward on a busy four track mainline with live 3rd rail on top of a viaduct.

 

[Bikeman78]

Things took rather a turn for the worse between Denmark Hill and Clapham High St on the Atlantic Lines, near the earlier fire, due to previously unknown cable damage.

London Overground 9G49 1734 Dalston Jn - Clapham Jn became stranded away from stations for the whole night after the power supply voltage dropped from 750ish to 500, which meant it lost its ability to move and eventually meant that basically all the electronics died.

After about 3 and a half hours, with a rescue train having also lost power, the passengers were removed in a side-to-side evacuation and supplied with medical treatment and assistance at Denmark Hill. The failed train was not fully clear of the route until about 0830 this morning, in part due to the stranded train having to be resurrected, which took a very long time. By this point, cable repairs had long been completed and the line could reopen when the stock was gone.

The sad thing is that an old EMU powered by DC motors would have carried on, at least to the next station. Indeed Belgian EMUs (3000V) routinely worked into the Netherlands (1500V). They just don't go as fast for a couple of miles.

 

[tsr]

Very unusually (a historic deal aligning with the 1909 AC electrification @ 6.6kV 16.6Hz) there are lots of UKPN cables for non rail power distribution at 132 and 33kV that run along the South London Line west of Surrey Canal (Road) to multiple smaller sub-stations e.g. Chadwick Road just west of Peckham Rye and Bengeworth Road just out the back of KCH. (Were fed from Deptford power station originally)

They keep getting forgotten about till they are rediscovered for example the first attempt at the lift shafts for Denmark Hill...

The 132kV cables are extremely ancient and in very dubious state hence everyones first bet might be one of the 132kV cables going up!

If there is a place for confusion in the UK between NR and a DNO as to whose cable it is, it will be on the South London Line.

I'm interested to hear that, as it explains why everyone was running around trying to work out if it was a 133kV cable at first, which was logged and investigated and then discounted.

I believe some foliage/plants were involved in the fire in question the other day, which at the very least is a pointer that the environment around such vulnerable cables is not as it should be. (Although looking at almost any lineside in that specific area will rapidly give rise to similar suspicions!)

Perhaps you think the passengers should have been left on the train all night until the faults were fixed?

That could well have happened, by chance, as the replacement cable was being arranged as they were being evacuated.

Obviously it would also then have been discovered that the stranded train decided it didn't want to play ball, so it's a good thing they evacuated before trying to power it up again...

I think they should have been taken off as soon as reasonably possible - but I can also see that this is not entirely straightforward on a busy four track mainline with live 3rd rail on top of a viaduct.

It was a particularly unfortunate location, with few options for passengers to go "trackside" due to prevailing hazards - but also another unfortunate sequence of events with prolonged attempts to diagnose the power fault, instead of moving a train alongside, turn the juice off and start evacuating (which was eventually done).

The sad thing is that an old EMU powered by DC motors would have carried on, at least to the next station. Indeed Belgian EMUs (3000V) routinely worked into the Netherlands (1500V). They just don't go as fast for a couple of miles.

The 378 did quite well to struggle as far as it did!

Similar feats can be attempted on other Electrostars - not sure about ARL 378s, to be honest - by means of activating Ice Mode to allow "as much power" (in layman's terms) to be drawn as safely as possible. I don't believe this was tried here, but in the end, I don't think it would have made a jot of difference once the unit came to a stand, since the situation was unrecoverable with the traction equipment available.

 

[BRX]

So was it just a coincidence that the power issue affected a train which itself had a fault or did one lead to the other?

 

[tsr]

So was it just a coincidence that the power issue affected a train which itself had a fault or did one lead to the other?

So far as I am aware, the faults on the stranded 378 unit were all due to the power supply defect.

 

[Aictos]

Similar feats can be attempted on other Electrostars - not sure about ARL 378s, to be honest - by means of activating Ice Mode to allow "as much power" (in layman's terms) to be drawn as safely as possible. I don't believe this was tried here, but in the end, I don't think it would have made a jot of difference once the unit came to a stand, since the situation was unrecoverable with the traction equipment available.

What is Ice Mode?

 

[jon0844]

What is Ice Mode?

A button the driver presses to turn the air conditioning up to the max in the middle of winter.

 

[ComUtoR]

The 378 did quite well to struggle as far as it did!

Why didn't it coast back to Denmark Hill ? I saw it sitting there in the morning and it looked like it was on the gradient still. Change ends and coast back wrong road could have been an option.

 

[OwenB]

Truly, you spoil us with your service from Hatfield this morning...

 

[Hophead]

Truly, you spoil us with your service from Hatfield this morning...

Of course, you need to refer to live departure services or journey planners to discover this information, as Thameslink, just like Southern, don't think it necessary to report cancellations on their Service Updates page

 

[jon0844]

Truly, you spoil us with your service from Hatfield this morning...

Three of those trains ran (2K22, 2K25 to Moorgate and 2V24 from Moorgate).

I believe at some point it was expected the up lines by Alexandra Palace wouldn't be handed back in time after overnight works.

 

[Failed Unit]

Three of those trains ran (2K22, 2K25 to Moorgate and 2V24 from Moorgate).

I believe at some point it was expected the up lines by Alexandra Palace wouldn't be handed back in time after overnight works.

I guess the lost out them, I looked at the live departures and thought time to take plan b (again) and leave the railway. Passed a replacement bus in Hatfield heading north. Saw lots of LNER trains on the line. Amazing how one operator using the same tracks isn't impacted and the one that didn't bother training enough drivers is. But considing how unreliable GN is at the weekends people won't look twice they will just head to Cockfosters / High Barnet.

Looking foward to the passenger numbers since the timetable change. GN will be really bad decline. I suspect the piccadilly line and Northern lines will see a large boost. Maybe TfL have shares in GTR - as they are one of the few that can take advantage of this situaton.

 

[jon0844]

The lines between WGC and Finsbury Park weren't opened until 0845 or thereabouts. There were indeed buses from start of service this morning. This WAS planned engineering work that has been on posters and, I assume, the website and apps.

I don't know why services that were running were showing as cancelled. That sort of thing should NOT happen.

 

[OwenB]

The lines between WGC and Finsbury Park weren't opened until 0845 or thereabouts. There were indeed buses from start of service this morning. This WAS planned engineering work that has been on posters and, I assume, the website and apps.

I don't know why services that were running were showing as cancelled. That sort of thing should NOT happen.

I think they were all marked up as shortage of crew.

 

[700007]

Truly, you spoil us with your service from Hatfield this morning...

Yes, GTR don't want you becoming spoilt brats with TWO trains an hour. It might attract passengers...

 

[Abpj17]

DfT has published the meeting papers of the Thameslink Industry Readiness Board, in the form of a Freedom of Information Request response (ie with redactions).
This was promised during the parliamentary committee hearings.
So we can all now crawl over the entrails of the planning for the disastrous May timetable change.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thameslink-industry-readiness-board-meeting-papers

It's impossible to extract a pithy quote.
The traffic light data of the Independent Assurance Panel is a start.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...nel-operational-readiness-review-may-2018.pdf

The parliamentary inquiry was launched on 5 June. I submitted my FoI response for this information on 6 June to Network Rail and ORR - some time before the committee hearings. It's been a long time coming. Someone else looks like they got to DfT on the 8 June.

I've not had time to pore through then yet, but will be doing so.

Edit: I've skipped straight to the end. A few things immediately of interest. The minutes don't record much debate at all - often copy out of content from the presentation slides. Perhaps unsurprisingly, most interjections are from the perspective of their respective employers - there isn't a strong sense of 'what does this mean for customer' i.e. community spirit that I'd expect. FoI requests are mentioned in the end-June minutes.

The reasons for rejecting the FoI request varied - eventually one said it was because DfT would be publishing. But Network Rail rejections included: a too general request (it absolutely was not); avoiding part of the request on the basis that others wouldn't be disclosed; exemption under the environment regulations because "trains use energy and generate noise"; a mythical bias towards non-disclosure. NR clearly doesn't enjoy FoI requests. ORR handled the request much better.

 

[radamfi]

Today's new service from Three Bridges to St Albans didn't go well. It left East Croydon only 2 minutes late yet got put behind the Horsham to Bedford train that was due to leave East Croydon at the same time. The Horsham to Bedford train got to London Bridge so early that it blocked the platform for the Three Bridges to St Albans train, meaning that left London Bridge 8 minutes late. There's hardly any point using the new train if it runs so late as there is another Bedford train right behind.

 

[infobleep]

Things took rather a turn for the worse between Denmark Hill and Clapham High St on the Atlantic Lines, near the earlier fire, due to previously unknown cable damage.

London Overground 9G49 1734 Dalston Jn - Clapham Jn became stranded away from stations for the whole night after the power supply voltage dropped from 750ish to 500, which meant it lost its ability to move and eventually meant that basically all the electronics died.

After about 3 and a half hours, with a rescue train having also lost power, the passengers were removed in a side-to-side evacuation and supplied with medical treatment and assistance at Denmark Hill. The failed train was not fully clear of the route until about 0830 this morning, in part due to the stranded train having to be resurrected, which took a very long time. By this point, cable repairs had long been completed and the line could reopen when the stock was gone.

I'm surprised people didn't self evacuate given how long it took to be rescued. I know they were between stations but still.

 

[samuelmorris]

Today's new service from Three Bridges to St Albans didn't go well. It left East Croydon only 2 minutes late yet got put behind the Horsham to Bedford train that was due to leave East Croydon at the same time. The Horsham to Bedford train got to London Bridge so early that it blocked the platform for the Three Bridges to St Albans train, meaning that left London Bridge 8 minutes late. There's hardly any point using the new train if it runs so late as there is another Bedford train right behind.

Pretty severe disruption on the Sutton loop this morning as well by all accounts with a failed unit somewhere nearby.

 

[BRX]

I'm surprised people didn't self evacuate given how long it took to be rescued. I know they were between stations but still.

It was dark, on top of a viaduct with no walkway along the edge, adjacent to three other train tracks with trains moving on them, and most people are aware that railways in the SE have live running rails that will kill you if you touch them. So not very surprising really.

 

[infobleep]

It was dark, on top of a viaduct with no walkway along the edge, adjacent to three other train tracks with trains moving on them, and most people are aware that railways in the SE have live running rails that will kill you if you touch them. So not very surprising really.

I guess but I've seen videos of people walking along tracks in the south east after self evacuating. That was daylight, which maybe was a difference.

 

[RichardKing]

Bad night on the BML (and surrounding routes) this evening. There's been many service amendments and delays due to a shortage of train crew, including a unit blocking one of the lines in the TL Core due to no Driver.
On top of that, we've had a train striking a bin between Worthing and Brighton causing some delays (30-40 minutes)...
And now there's reports of a person being hit by a train in the Burgess Hill area, which has trapped two trains (1A71 (the incident train) and 9T69). Services are being diverted via Lewes where possible, but this is down to whether Drivers have sufficient route knowledge.

Not a good night for late travellers - some last trains were already cancelled this evening (most notably to Eastbourne), so this certainly isn't going to help matters!

Thoughts go out to all those involved in the incident at Burgess Hill of course.