Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Class2ldn]

It hasn't fully closed yet

 

[Cletus]

I’ve just noticed on RTT that a service from St Albans to Sutton is cancelled “due to lineside vegetation” which conjures up images of triffids to me. Or possibly something less sinister!

 

[HH]

Maybe someone spotted Grayling...

 

[Kanrakuq]

I've actually been avoiding using the Arlesey-Kings Cross trains during the weekend because the service frequency/reliability is still so poor, but on Sunday had no alternative so had to give it a go. The 1023 got cancelled, so I had low expectations about the 1123, given that it would have two hours' worth of passengers inside. Shouldn't have: the carriage had approximately 10 people in it. This is a service that last year used to be so incredibly jammed full that traveling was actually very unpleasant. It's incredible how big the fall-off of people using it has been. Even after Stevenage it was only about 25% full.

Coming back was the usual sort of stuff: Missed the hourly Arlesey train through my own fault, so no complaints there, got on one going to Letchworth since I'd rather wait at Hitchin in (comparative) fresh air for a connection than Kings Cross, then five minutes after it's supposed to have left the driver says the (700) train's broken and we all need to get off, but one going to Cambridge which was leaving from platform 11 (the Letchworth train was on platform 10) was going to have extra stops added to it. Then two minutes before the Cambridge train was supposed to leave, even though the platform was still empty, everyone got told it was actually leaving from platform 7, so cue everyone running back down the platform, through the barriers, and across the entire concourse to the other side of the station. I didn't bother, and the train disappeared from the departures board bang on time, so don't know if it waited for anyone or just drove off empty.

 

[OwenB]

I've actually been avoiding using the Arlesey-Kings Cross trains during the weekend because the service frequency/reliability is still so poor, but on Sunday had no alternative so had to give it a go. The 1023 got cancelled, so I had low expectations about the 1123, given that it would have two hours' worth of passengers inside. Shouldn't have: the carriage had approximately 10 people in it. This is a service that last year used to be so incredibly jammed full that traveling was actually very unpleasant. It's incredible how big the fall-off of people using it has been. Even after Stevenage it was only about 25% full.

Coming back was the usual sort of stuff: Missed the hourly Arlesey train through my own fault, so no complaints there, got on one going to Letchworth since I'd rather wait at Hitchin in (comparative) fresh air for a connection than Kings Cross, then five minutes after it's supposed to have left the driver says the (700) train's broken and we all need to get off, but one going to Cambridge which was leaving from platform 11 (the Letchworth train was on platform 10) was going to have extra stops added to it. Then two minutes before the Cambridge train was supposed to leave, even though the platform was still empty, everyone got told it was actually leaving from platform 7, so cue everyone running back down the platform, through the barriers, and across the entire concourse to the other side of the station. I didn't bother, and the train disappeared from the departures board bang on time, so don't know if it waited for anyone or just drove off empty.

Considering they're still struggling to run 50% of the weekend service, their customer service is shocking. You'd think with one train per hour, they'd try to help people given this sounds like their cock up or break down. The quality of answers on Twitter has also fallen off a cliff, presumably because they're not party to any useful information so people may as well look at the National Rail Enquiries app.

 

[OwenB]

As of 07:25:
GN Inners 53% (17 of 32)
GN Outers 65% (17 of 26)

Another stellar morning.

 

[Hadders]

Not a good start to the week:

07:10
07:32
07:47

All cancelled from Stevenage this morning.

 

[Failed Unit]

Considering they're still struggling to run 50% of the weekend service, their customer service is shocking. You'd think with one train per hour, they'd try to help people given this sounds like their cock up or break down. The quality of answers on Twitter has also fallen off a cliff, presumably because they're not party to any useful information so people may as well look at the National Rail Enquiries app.

I hope that the dft is looking at the weekend service when deciding if they should strip the franchise. The offering is totally pathetic but I think they are only looking at the weekday. They have cut the timetable by 50% and still can’t even run that.

Similar experience myself yesterday

Planned to travel on the 1802 London - Cambridge. It was cancelled as was the following 1832 London - Letchworth.

They decided to stop the 1842 London to Cambridge additionally to cover the double cancellation.

At about 1830, the 1802 reappeared but non-stop to Letchworth.

At 1841 the driver of the 1842 said it would stick to its booked stopping pattern and to join the 1802 on platform 11 (1842 - was on platform 8)

Queue a mass scrum across Kings Cross as the 1802 was just showing “delayed”. No one knew if it would wait. It then was put in the slow line after it did depart at about 1850 so lost more time behind the Moorgate slow. By WGC the 1902 was close behind.

Who makes these decisions and why constantly change them? Passengers just want to know how to get to their destination not have lots of walking around kings cross.

This morning the 0628 Cambridge- London was showing delayed until nearly 1 hour after it should have left Cambridge. It was cancelled further down as skip stopping was planned.

Passenger information is basic, GTR can’t manage this. Be interesting to see how the apologists react to this claim. But other TOCs manage with the same systems, it is just GTR can’t. I suspect they are under resourced in this area as well.

 

[jon0844]

Yesterday there was a stop order put on a fast train because the Cambridge stopper was likely to be cancelled (no driver). Then a driver was found so if ran some 40 minutes late and the 1Cxx service ran as booked.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yesterday there was a stop order put on a fast train because the Cambridge stopper was likely to be cancelled (no driver). Then a driver was found so if ran some 40 minutes late and the 1Cxx service ran as booked.

But you have to admit it was still appalling customer service. This driver didn’t as if by magic appear to run the service. It was nearly 50 Down. I was on it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I’ve just noticed on RTT that a service from St Albans to Sutton is cancelled “due to lineside vegetation” which conjures up images of triffids to me. Or possibly something less sinister!

I haven't been on the Sutton loop for a long time but it would appear in many locations around the network, vegetation has been "allowed" to flourish beyond belief. Presume, there is no strategy to keep it down or under control?

 

[riceuten]

Not a good start to the week:

07:10
07:32
07:47

All cancelled from Stevenage this morning.

Seems as if the 7.32 and 7.47 were "planned" cancellations and 7.10 was "no driver"

 

[southernyoshi]

They could stop running weekend services altogether & DfT wouldn't notice. Wouldn't be amazed if they actually do that on GN before too long .

 

[riceuten]

They could stop running weekend services altogether & DfT wouldn't notice. Wouldn't be amazed if they actually do that on GN before too long .

They could indeed.

Didn't FCC do this at one point in the midst of a dispute with the drivers, who refused to work overtime or rest days?

 

[jellybaby]

I haven't been on the Sutton loop for a long time but it would appear in many locations around the network, vegetation has been "allowed" to flourish beyond belief. Presume, there is no strategy to keep it down or under control?

There is a lot of lineside clearance work being undertaken across the network at the moment, complete with criticism for disruption to wildlife and destruction of trees.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...new-800m-scheme-to-remove-all-leaf-fall-trees

 

[HH]

They could indeed.

Didn't FCC do this at one point in the midst of a dispute with the drivers, who refused to work overtime or rest days?

There was a pay dispute (triggered from on high at First) that triggered one full "BBQ Sunday" and RDW refusal until First came to their senses.

 

[riceuten]

I see from Realtime Trains that the following London Bridge to Stevenage trains are cancelled today (0600-2000)

0630
0715
1000
1015
1100
1115
1230
1315
1400
1600
1830
1915

From KGX, we merely have the following

0751
1151
1551
1751
1951

Having made an effort for a couple of weeks, it appears that TL are once again phoning it in.

 

[MikeWM]

There was a pay dispute (triggered from on high at First) that triggered one full "BBQ Sunday" and RDW refusal until First came to their senses.

I seem to remember this was on Remembrance Sunday one year. There result was a lot of highly negative press reports from people who were hoping to travel to London to attend the service at the Cenotaph. The issue seemed quite quickly resolved thereafter.

Bad press doesn't seem to have the effect it used to not-so-many years ago, it seems.

 

[387star]

Will the 0324 Peterborough to kings cross and 0136 kings cross to Peterborough night trains remain GN branded services?

 

[MikeWM]

I've actually been avoiding using the Arlesey-Kings Cross trains during the weekend because the service frequency/reliability is still so poor, but on Sunday had no alternative so had to give it a go. The 1023 got cancelled, so I had low expectations about the 1123, given that it would have two hours' worth of passengers inside. Shouldn't have: the carriage had approximately 10 people in it. This is a service that last year used to be so incredibly jammed full that traveling was actually very unpleasant. It's incredible how big the fall-off of people using it has been. Even after Stevenage it was only about 25% full.

I have to agree with that. I got the 1247 Ely to Kings Cross on Saturday, the first time I've ventured south of Cambridge on GN since May 20th. I was intending to transfer onto the 1321 GA at Cambridge, but everything on GA was stopped due to a fatality at Ponders End, so I stayed on the GN. It was an 8-car 365 (odd, I didn't think any of those were supposed to be serving Cambridge now

This service combines what previously was a fast *and* a semi-fast between Cambridge and KGX. In this case, it also had passengers like myself who were intending to travel on GA. In addition to that, the preceding Cambridge to KGX stopper had been cancelled (you guessed it - 'no driver'). So I assumed it was going to be a rather tight squeeze as we proceeded. But, well, no, not really - it was just about full (all seats taken, but no-one standing) on leaving Stevenage.

There's no way that would have happened before May 20th. Even at 'quiet' times, one 8-car semi-fast that was replacing a fast, a semi-fast, a stopper, and a GA service, would have been packed to the rafters.

 

[MikeWM]

A specific example, but take the train I used to get most days before the timetable change - the 0949 Ely to Cambridge - this had within-5-minutes arrival at Cambridge at about 97% before May according to RecentTrainTimes. I know this is pretty accurate as otherwise I missed my bus connection.

Now it is at 0948, and this week's record for arrivals at Cambridge : 7 late, on-time, 10 late, 8 late, cancelled - ie. 20% reliability, quite a bit down from high nineties pre-May! So I can no longer rely on this train and have to get the preceding GA ex-Norwich instead. Partly this is due to the fact it starts back from Kings Lynn now and has a nasty tight squeeze through Ely North junction - but that's not my problem, the timetable should be taking that into account. Now I have to get to the station earlier to get to work on time as this train has gone from very reliable to very unreliable.

I should note that the performance of this train has actually drastically improved - last week it was on-time to within a minute every day. A couple of times it looked like the signaller had the sense to send things through Ely North out-of-order when there were slight delays, which definitely helped, but however it worked out this is a big improvement. Let no-one say I'm not fair to GN on the rare occasion that I feel I ought to be

Unfortunately it doesn't help me much as the times of my connecting bus have changed as of this week, so this train isn't much use anymore except as a backup! (Really, it is amazing that anybody commutes at all by public transport......)

 

[Ianno87]

I should note that the performance of this train has actually drastically improved - last week it was on-time to within a minute every day. A couple of times it looked like the signaller had the sense to send things through Ely North out-of-order when there were slight delays, which definitely helped, but however it worked out this is a big improvement. Let no-one say I'm not fair to GN on the rare occasion that I feel I ought to be

Signaller might have been reading this thead!

 

[Failed Unit]

Tonight demonstrates well how fragile the timetable is.

Earlier object in overhead was 1 issue.

I was on the 1721 Kings Cross - Cambridge. Left kings cross on time but picked up delay on route as these trains are no longer allowed to use the fast line.

Issue 2. A failed class 700 train on 1627 Cambridge to London.

All delays due to 1 were because of an object in the overhead.

All delays due to 2 were “operational incidents”

Us harden commuters now know operational incident - means something within GTRs control but they don’t want to admit liability.

 

[ComUtoR]

Us harden commuters now know operational incident - means something within GTRs control but they don’t want to admit liability.

Would a SPAR due to a signal reverting to danger be 'withing GTRs control ?

'operational incident' is very much an admission of liability. It's used to be generic and avoid technicalities that the hoi pollio don't need to understand. It's a very umbrella term to cover the plethora of incidents that occur regularly on the railway. My incident this afternoon was not mentioned specifically on the radio on my trip home. They simply announced it as "trains being unable to call at XX and up to 15 minute delays" I don't think anyone really needs the specific minutiae of every single incident.

 

[MikeWM]

Ok, I said one positive thing, so back to normal now...

This evening’s GN service looks a mess from Cambridge. Everything is running 10-15 minutes late, or cancelled. And of course they’ve just moved the (delayed) 1909 from platform 1 to 7, which is hardly the most convenient of moves, but is done all too regularly nowadays.

On another note, is basic maintenance going wrong now too? The number of out-of-order toilets, and units with broken aircon or wifi, seems to be inexorably increasing. Complaints on twitter seem to bear this out too.

 

[Failed Unit]

Would a SPAR due to a signal reverting to danger be 'withing GTRs control ?

'operational incident' is very much an admission of liability. It's used to be generic and avoid technicalities that the hoi pollio don't need to understand. It's a very umbrella term to cover the plethora of incidents that occur regularly on the railway. My incident this afternoon was not mentioned specifically on the radio on my trip home. They simply announced it as "trains being unable to call at XX and up to 15 minute delays" I don't think anyone really needs the specific minutiae of every single incident.

Very unusual for GTR - I would have expected them to attribute that to “signalling problems”. Something the public understands and clear it isn’t their fault. In our area they use operational incident as something preventable but within GTR control.

I have no axe to grind about the use of operational incident. It is just we have noticed now that if it isn’t GTRs fault they are specific. If not it is an operational incident. (Ie no driver, train fault. Etc)

To the point of specific. “Object caught in overhead wires” is very specific- they could have described it as an operational incident as well. As you said we don’t need to know that level of detail.

That is my dig at GTR. But thanks for giving the facts. I am a bitter and twisted user of GTR (had a tough weekend with operational issues causing cancellations on a virtually non existent timetable) so your balance is appreciated.

 

[ComUtoR]

I would agree there is a lot of buck passing with TOC/NR. Personally I wish it would stop but I think it came about because passenger perception is all based on the TOC being at fault and I think that TOCs finally snapped. The blame game winds me up at the best of times. There is a flip side of the coin where it could be seen as being transparent. Eveyone must own up to what they cause and who's fault it is. NR seem to hide behind the TOCs just as much as the TOCs pass the blame back to them.

I am still at odds where it is 'within GTRs control' There is no intent to have an operational incident and it covers many things but I cannot, for the life of me, see it as 'controllable' in any way. **** happens and how it gets dealt with that is important. What happened to me today effectively shut down a major platform on a major route. The impact will be felt for a couple of days if NR don't pull their finger out and felt by two TOCs and a metric ton of services. Nobody is to blame for it but there will be consequences. I don't think for a second that its within anybodys control.

 

[Bikeman78]

I've actually been avoiding using the Arlesey-Kings Cross trains during the weekend because the service frequency/reliability is still so poor, but on Sunday had no alternative so had to give it a go. The 1023 got cancelled, so I had low expectations about the 1123, given that it would have two hours' worth of passengers inside. Shouldn't have: the carriage had approximately 10 people in it. This is a service that last year used to be so incredibly jammed full that traveling was actually very unpleasant. It's incredible how big the fall-off of people using it has been. Even after Stevenage it was only about 25% full.

The last ever GN 317 was the 1115 Peterborough to King's Cross on a Sunday. It was pretty full when it departed Biggleswade. If trains are now only 25% full then it shows how much they have killed the off peak market.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would agree there is a lot of buck passing with TOC/NR. Personally I wish it would stop but I think it came about because passenger perception is all based on the TOC being at fault and I think that TOCs finally snapped. The blame game winds me up at the best of times. There is a flip side of the coin where it could be seen as being transparent. Eveyone must own up to what they cause and who's fault it is. NR seem to hide behind the TOCs just as much as the TOCs pass the blame back to them.

I am still at odds where it is 'within GTRs control' There is no intent to have an operational incident and it covers many things but I cannot, for the life of me, see it as 'controllable' in any way. **** happens and how it gets dealt with that is important. What happened to me today effectively shut down a major platform on a major route. The impact will be felt for a couple of days if NR don't pull their finger out and felt by two TOCs and a metric ton of services. Nobody is to blame for it but there will be consequences. I don't think for a second that its within anybodys control.

To be honest I wouldn’t be in a job if **** didnt happen. You could argue the 313s are failing more because they are not doing as much preventative maintenance on them - but that isn’t where I am going with the within GTRs control.

My view of within GTRs control is post 3878. GTR either have a driver to run the train or not. OK the 0628 maybe the drivers first train of the day. But knowing that a driver needs to prep the train, you can be fairly certain if they haven’t booked on by say 0615 that train is going nowhere.

Likewise the 1802 on Sunday. They knew they didn’t have a driver when they cancelled it. So as an insider why was it reinstated, did Bob really walk into the mess room at 1832 and say. “I have nothing to do”, then the asked him “do you fancy a quick trip to Cambridge” maybe that is what happened

But to me matching drivers to trains is within GTRs control. If they don’t have enough drivers cancel the train before it is due to depart. Yes they can get held up on route, but the company must have a fairly good idea where they are and how likely they are to get to the train before departure time.

Does anyone know why Gatwick Express have such poor performance at the moment? It is often beating great northern to be the worse performing part of GTR, which seems odd.

 

[jon0844]

But you have to admit it was still appalling customer service. This driver didn’t as if by magic appear to run the service. It was nearly 50 Down. I was on it.

I have no idea what it was like at King's Cross but I have been there on other nights and it is certainly chaotic. Nothing worse than being told your train is now cancelled and being asked to go from platform 10 to 2 or something (well ANY platform change is a PITA).