Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

I should note that the performance of this train has actually drastically improved - last week it was on-time to within a minute every day. A couple of times it looked like the signaller had the sense to send things through Ely North out-of-order when there were slight delays, which definitely helped, but however it worked out this is a big improvement. Let no-one say I'm not fair to GN on the rare occasion that I feel I ought to be

Unfortunately it doesn't help me much as the times of my connecting bus have changed as of this week, so this train isn't much use anymore except as a backup! (Really, it is amazing that anybody commutes at all by public transport......)

The signallers used to help out a lot, but with the recent troubles were just running as is because they were presumably swamped with requests. Now things are gradually getting back to normal, things like this should happen more often. Network Rail also had a lot of trainee signallers in May/June that might have also played a part.

 

[jon0844]

Would a SPAR due to a signal reverting to danger be 'withing GTRs control ?

'operational incident' is very much an admission of liability. It's used to be generic and avoid technicalities that the hoi pollio don't need to understand. It's a very umbrella term to cover the plethora of incidents that occur regularly on the railway. My incident this afternoon was not mentioned specifically on the radio on my trip home. They simply announced it as "trains being unable to call at XX and up to 15 minute delays" I don't think anyone really needs the specific minutiae of every single incident.

A broken down train at a depot this morning caused problems. Not sure that was given as a specific reason, rather delays on an earlier service or something. Twitter was full of people calling BS on it, but it was genuine - just a poorly explained cause.

The problem now is that nobody believes anything they're told. It's the opposite of the fake news problem in politics!

 

[bramling]

A broken down train at a depot this morning caused problems. Not sure that was given as a specific reason, rather delays on an earlier service or something. Twitter was full of people calling BS on it, but it was genuine - just a poorly explained cause.

The problem now is that nobody believes anything they're told. It's the opposite of the fake news problem in politics!

Can’t really blame people to be fair - things really have been the pits since May.

To be fair, used the service to and from London today for the first time since the interim timetable, and all went reasonably well. Indeed the 365s were noticeably immaculate - not sure if there’s anything going on or it’s just that they’re now only used on the premier services, however the seats and interior were spotless, and the train had a “neat & tidy” feel. Looking through RTT things do seem to be sliding away again however - as per usual plenty of late running ex the core, and it seems the number of cancellations is creeping up again.

Going back a few weeks I made three predictions for the interim timetable - a rocky start due to units not being in place, an erratic service at times due to Thameslink, and coverage issues over the summer holiday. This all seems to have borne fruit. I remain very much of the view that 8 trains per hour to and from the core is completely unworkable.

 

[Failed Unit]

This morning is a better example of how I want information to be passed on.

0632 WGC - London Kings Cross Cancelled
0721 London kings cross - Cambridge starts at WGC

Decision made, shown on screens and people can plan their journeys

Someone at potters par for example can pick up an ex-Moorgate and head to WGC.

In the past this would have just shown “delayed” despite the inbound service cancellation so people would wait rather than try a plan B. Fix this issue and to me the customers will be much happier. Yesterday it was just “delayed” even a hour after it was supposed to depart.

 

[Failed Unit]

A broken down train at a depot this morning caused problems. Not sure that was given as a specific reason, rather delays on an earlier service or something. Twitter was full of people calling BS on it, but it was genuine - just a poorly explained cause.

The problem now is that nobody believes anything they're told. It's the opposite of the fake news problem in politics!

That is very true it will be a long time before anyone believes what GTR say.

The blatant lies Charles Horton told on national Tv about it was teething problems and would be resolved in a couple of weeks, coupled with the reponse to “Have you got enough drivers trained” and constantly getting told yes by GTR has dented credibility a lot.

Many of the things they have said have since being proven to be misleading, such as the lack of Weekends service into the core was initially stated by GTR as engineering work.

 

[jon0844]

This morning is a better example of how I want information to be passed on.

0632 WGC - London Kings Cross Cancelled
0721 London kings cross - Cambridge starts at WGC

Decision made, shown on screens and people can plan their journeys

Someone at potters par for example can pick up an ex-Moorgate and head to WGC.

In the past this would have just shown “delayed” despite the inbound service cancellation so people would wait rather than try a plan B. Fix this issue and to me the customers will be much happier. Yesterday it was just “delayed” even a hour after it was supposed to depart.

When the train to CBG starts from WGC (because it didn't run to KGX first) the other stops will be cancelled and people at KGX, FPK, PBR and HAT all see cancelled. It's up to staff to read an email or check and give advice (get slow to WGC and go from there) and it could be missed given all the other things going on.

I know at least three 700s from platform 4 at WGC that have taken almost 10 minutes for the doors to be released on the platform in the last few days. I assume there was a fault this morning too, meaning the 0632 never ran?

I don't know if it is down to the driver or GPS or what, but it is a problem.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 0632 didn’t run.

But many people are getting savvy enough to check the apps when a train is cancelled in case it is skipping stops.

Poor platform staff at WGC were stitched up. It turned up at about 0800 and people thought it was the 0802 which was then showing on the monitors. The 0756 was removed by then.

Added some extra delays while they ensured no-one heading to London was on a train going to Cambridge.

 

[jon0844]

The 0632 didn’t run.

But many people are getting savvy enough to check the apps when a train is cancelled in case it is skipping stops.

Poor platform staff at WGC were stitched up. It turned up at about 0800 and people thought it was the 0802 which was then showing on the monitors. The 0756 was removed by then.

Added some extra delays while they ensured no-one heading to London was on a train going to Cambridge.

The headcode should have made it clear, but I can imagine it causing confusion under the circumstances.

 

[neilm]

I know earlier in the thread said no driver training route training was happening. Is this still the case or has some route learning started?

 

[sprunt]

I drive and have driven 7 different classes. I currently drive 3. I have been driving for over 10yrs. There is an issue with competency. 700s are new units and we are still picking up various little kinks and learning how to deal with them. One of our Drivers relayed a funny story to me just this week of how he almost failed his unit because of a specific quirk he didn't notice and hes been on as long as me.

But to me, as a non-railway industry insider this sounds less like a matter of driver incompetence than it does a matter of train manufacturer incompetence. Why, in 2018, are brand new trains being designed and manufactured with "kinks" and "quirks"? It's possibly a lazy analogy, but it would be unimaginable for a new Ford or Vauxhall model to be introduced that had these mystery issues making them fail frequently - this level of reliability in a new model introduced by a major car manufacturer would probably bankrupt the company.

 

[nickswift99]

But to me, as a non-railway industry insider this sounds less like a matter of driver incompetence than it does a matter of train manufacturer incompetence. Why, in 2018, are brand new trains being designed and manufactured with "kinks" and "quirks"? It's possibly a lazy analogy, but it would be unimaginable for a new Ford or Vauxhall model to be introduced that had these mystery issues making them fail frequently - this level of reliability in a new model introduced by a major car manufacturer would probably bankrupt the company.

You're not comparing with the right car manufacturer. Ford/GM deliver millions of cars, Siemens deliver hundreds of trains per year. There are kinks/quirks on any low volume/high end manufactured product. High end sports cars are notoriously unreliable.

 

[Bedpan]

I found a kink/quirk with my new car's remote control key when I locked the door. I couldn't get the car to start but after a bit of trial and error I THINK that it happened because a signal from my phone was corrupting the signal from the key to the ignition, but I'm still not 100% sure. There was nothing about it in the instruction manual, it was just a case of having experienced the problem, I have an idea what I should to to get the car going when it happens again. If it had happened the first time when I was on a busy road and blocking traffic I'd have been in a right state. I guess that it is this sort of thing tat ComUtoR's mate must have been having with his new 700.

 

[tsr]

My current car is a fairly new version of a popular family hatchback from a large European manufacturer. The number of clearly unintended quirks, almost entirely with electronic systems, is utterly ridiculous. I’d say it’s actually on par with the descriptions of drivers getting used to brand new traction on the railway.

I actually find it quite entertaining, and have no desire to get rid of the thing before the contract ends - but some of my family refuse to drive it because they are borderline technophobic...

 

[ComUtoR]

But to me, as a non-railway industry insider this sounds less like a matter of driver incompetence than it does a matter of train manufacturer incompetence.

Not so much as 'incompetence' but simple Driver error, lack of training, lack of experience.

Why, in 2018, are brand new trains being designed and manufactured with "kinks" and "quirks"? It's possibly a lazy analogy, but it would be unimaginable for a new Ford or Vauxhall model to be introduced that had these mystery issues making them fail frequently

ANALOGY : I've been driving since I was about 20 (ish) and I've had quite a few cars in that time. Some had the indicator on the left stick, some on the right. I've lost count of the times I've flicked the wrong stick and got wipers instead.

The same happens with any new traction you get. You need to learn the little quirks of each unit. From placement of the AWS button to using a full blown interactive HMI and DMI interface.

ANALOGY : I currently drive a more modern car. I managed to ding it the other week and it caused a fault on the dash and also a serious mechanical fault. I had no idea how to fix it. It took a bit of time for me to work it out. The next time it happens or the next time I get the warning message on the dash I guarantee it will take me minutes to resolve it.

The same thing happens with new traction. You get new indications and new issues to resolve. Some you have never seen before and others you need to jump through hoops to resolve where previously you would flick an MCB.

ANALOGY : Apple vs Windows vs Android. Anyone who uses a computer or even your phone will understand the differences between each OS. I've been using computers since the BBC Basic and ZX spectrum. I despise Apple with a passion but I bought my son a Mac. He left it on a few weeks ago and I thought it would be easy to turn it off. I couldn't figure it out so I ended up doing a hard shutdown. Suffice to say that the Mac did not like it :/

The same thing happens with new traction. As to the 3 units I drive they all have a different shutdown procedure. The more modern 700 is the worst. You have to go through many many hoops and if you don't shut it down in a very specific way you can cause more faults. Computer says no doesn't begin to describe how particular these units are. Over engineered is another way I'd describe them. Seriously why does it take over 20 button presses to start the unit !

Some Drivers are really good at learning new skills and have a high degree of non technical skills. It can still be a steep learning cliff for many of us.

 

[greatkingrat]

The same thing happens with new traction. As to the 3 units I drive they all have a different shutdown procedure. The more modern 700 is the worst. You have to go through many many hoops and if you don't shut it down in a very specific way you can cause more faults. Computer says no doesn't begin to describe how particular these units are. Over engineered is another way I'd describe them. Seriously why does it take over 20 button presses to start the unit !

Is that purely to start the train or does that include things like setting up PIS / GSM-R?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is that purely to start the train or does that include things like setting up PIS / GSM-R?

Little of both.

The GSMR and PIS is unlike any train I've ever driven. If you don't enter the PIS you can't open the doors at any station. You need to use the MASDO function to get the doors open. I can MASDO in a fraction of a second because its something I've done on numerous occasions. I am also circumventing the safety system in place and skipping a procedural step because there is a workaround to do it at speed. The correct way takes much longer and causes excessive delays. I can imagine a new Driver to a 700 explicitly using the correct procedure and causing a delay and a more experienced Driver with a 700 just using the workaround. The PIS procedure has also changed a lot since they were first introduced. This is because the initial way 700's worked was dumb as fork. (check the 700 thread) The PIS is also an 8 digit code. Only 4 are provided on your diagram. Consider how many ways you can enter a 4 digit code into a space requiring 8 digits. The first time you try it you are mashing combinations to try and figure it out. Now I do it without thinking. It's easy to understand how Drivers new to the unit are still playing catchup.

And that's just the PIS

There is also a few steps where if they were missed (easy to do) the unit sticks the brakes in about a second after it moves. This happened to many of us. To deal with it you had to do something very unnatural for a Driver and for more technophobic Drivers it just manifests as the DMI screaming a fault at you (a scary fault for a Driver tbvfh) This is a mandatory button press when setting up. There is also a issue where if a single button press is missed it won't release the brakes, one where you wouldn't know till you entered the core.

There is also a stupid issue with the DSD test. It manifest a fault !! There is only one way to clear it and if you were not clued up then again, you wont be able to release the brakes.

An example of how kinky these units are... You need to confirm your unit length on setup (setup won't complete without it) Remember these are fixed length units :/

With the GSMR on setup you must enter a headcode. I spoke with Seimens about what to do when we don't use one or can't setup (like in a sidings) and their response was [redacted]

 

[infobleep]

Little of both.

The GSMR and PIS is unlike any train I've ever driven. If you don't enter the PIS you can't open the doors at any station. You need to use the MASDO function to get the doors open. I can MASDO in a fraction of a second because its something I've done on numerous occasions. I am also circumventing the safety system in place and skipping a procedural step because there is a workaround to do it at speed. The correct way takes much longer and causes excessive delays. I can imagine a new Driver to a 700 explicitly using the correct procedure and causing a delay and a more experienced Driver with a 700 just using the workaround. The PIS procedure has also changed a lot since they were first introduced. This is because the initial way 700's worked was dumb as fork. (check the 700 thread) The PIS is also an 8 digit code. Only 4 are provided on your diagram. Consider how many ways you can enter a 4 digit code into a space requiring 8 digits. The first time you try it you are mashing combinations to try and figure it out. Now I do it without thinking. It's easy to understand how Drivers new to the unit are still playing catchup.

And that's just the PIS

There is also a few steps where if they were missed (easy to do) the unit sticks the brakes in about a second after it moves. This happened to many of us. To deal with it you had to do something very unnatural for a Driver and for more technophobic Drivers it just manifests as the DMI screaming a fault at you (a scary fault for a Driver tbvfh) This is a mandatory button press when setting up. There is also a issue where if a single button press is missed it won't release the brakes, one where you wouldn't know till you entered the core.

There is also a stupid issue with the DSD test. It manifest a fault !! There is only one way to clear it and if you were not clued up then again, you wont be able to release the brakes.

An example of how kinky these units are... You need to confirm your unit length on setup (setup won't complete without it) Remember these are fixed length units :/

With the GSMR on setup you must enter a headcode. I spoke with Seimens about what to do when we don't use one or can't setup (like in a sidings) and their response was [redacted]

So will all those issues be fixed, ah me of them or now? They aee some working as designed and intended to be designed?

 

[ComUtoR]

They aee some working as designed and intended to be designed?

A lot of the 700 design is 'working as intended' and we are very much dealing with new ways of doing old stuff. The PIS is just something we need to deal with. It's difficult to figure out what is intended and what is a fault.

The Door function is a classic example of how good these units are. The initial design and method of working was borked but because they can issue a software update they made it more functional. This was because whoever designed it clearly wasn't a Driver and didn't work the railway. Its more functional than before but still designed by someone in IT who sits at a computer for a living :/

I had a new fault the other day. The unit manifested a major fault that had no impact on the day to day running but someone somewhere has decided its a major fault that would require an emergency brake if seen in service. Now I've seen it I know what to do and I will 'ignore' it in the future. saving valuable delay minutes.

There was a huge list of 'faults' and 'issues' that were being looked at but as with everything else on the railway its now lost in the ether.

 

[sefton]

I see the ability to claim Delay Repay based on trains they should be running but are not has been removed.

Since the 'interim' timetable with these removed trains is here for the foreseeable future and thus continuing to cause inconvenience for months (years?), that is quite poor.

 

[bahnause]

I quite like the way our Siemens units work -> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RABe_514. I have to admit, that a lot of drivers never really got used to them. They are quite different to the ‚homemade‘ stuff we used before. Because I drove the Siemens built ICE1 before, it was never a big difference to what I was used to, I knew the different design concept and quirks from there.

I like that a lot of redundancy is built in. A lot of stuff has to break until it actually stops moving.

I had a new fault the other day. The unit manifested a major fault that had no impact on the day to day running but someone somewhere has decided its a major fault that would require an emergency brake if seen in service. Now I've seen it I know what to do and I will 'ignore' it in the future. saving valuable delay minutes.

With most common faults, I just do what the train tells me to do. It usually works out quite well. But then there are the less common faults, they require a bit of creativity sometimes... (or a battery reset). It is disappointing that they are built on the cheap, we call them „Aldi-Tram“.

 

[mmh]

Not so much as 'incompetence' but simple Driver error, lack of training, lack of experience.

ANALOGY :

Thanks for a really great reply, many of the analogies with things outside the railway have happened to me and no doubt millions of others. I learned to drive in a car with the indicator stalk on the right, I had no idea it might be anywhere else until I got in a car with it on the left. Yup, wipe, oh FFS, until you get used to it being different.

Computers and phones being randomly different to other ones is one most people will empathise with these days - even TVs perhaps.

Hiring a car would be my embarrassing example of it. First time I did I couldn't put it into reverse the first time I needed to, to get out of a parking space at a services on the M6. After 20 minutes of trying and thinking I'd need to use the AA I thought to look in the manual in the glovebox. I didn't know there was another way than pressing the gear lever down or pulling it up. It had a ring you needed to pull under the gearknob

 

[ComUtoR]

Happy to be of help. Its odd to think of us as highly skilled and highly trained and then the simplest of things trip us up. 'Driver error' is a genuine reason why there may be delays, cancellations and whatever else.

My car has an electric parking brake. I keep getting out of it without setting it Ive had it for over a year ! The new model now sets the parking brake automatically when you press off.

700s are pretty awesome to drive and I would prefer it over anything else but they can be a bloody nightmare to deal with.

 

[hozza94]

Hiring a car would be my embarrassing example of it. First time I did I couldn't put it into reverse the first time I needed to, to get out of a parking space at a services on the M6. After 20 minutes of trying and thinking I'd need to use the AA I thought to look in the manual in the glovebox. I didn't know there was another way than pressing the gear lever down or pulling it up. It had a ring you needed to pull under the gearknob

Have to second that
I recently drove a manual Golf not too long ago, having only driven autos since I passed my test (parents lives in Hong Kong). Tried to do a 3-point at what I thought was a "quiet" residential road, And I didn't know how to put the car in reverre… had a few confused drivers giving me looks.

 

[choochoochoo]

Little of both.

An example of how kinky these units are... You need to confirm your unit length on setup (setup won't complete without it) Remember these are fixed length units :/

I don't want to take this thread any further off course with technical 700 traction specifics. But I thought the confirming the length on setup was a human factors thing. By confirming the unit length it helps you remember how long your train is, rather than just walking up to a unit and going.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't want to take this thread any further off course with technical 700 traction specifics. But I thought the confirming the length on setup was a human factors thing. By confirming the unit length it helps you remember how long your train is, rather than just walking up to a unit and going.

Manually confirming, using aide memoires, etc are all indeed human factors. There is also another human factor where doing the same thing over and over and over and... again leads to you ignoring it.

The 700 confirmation is nothing to do with human factors. The unit requires it to be confirmed or it will not start. There is a small technical detail as to why but its stupid and pointless. Poor software and poor train design tbh. It takes 3 button presses to confirm it (using a shortcut) :/

 

[jon0844]

One 700 left ten minutes late this morning from WGC. Doors couldn't be released on the platform. Apparently happened on the same unit from King's Cross later (15 minutes late).

It's now happening regularly as new drivers are taking these out for the first time (give or take) and not having the experience or knowledge gained on the TL side some time ago. Must be the fifth incident in the last week I know of at WGC.

 

[FOH]

I see the ability to claim Delay Repay based on trains they should be running but are not has been removed.

Since the 'interim' timetable with these removed trains is here for the foreseeable future and thus continuing to cause inconvenience for months (years?), that is quite poor.

On Southern it was 3 years after the emergency timetable was imposed before they reinstated our missing trains.

 

[bengley]

Little of both.

The GSMR and PIS is unlike any train I've ever driven. If you don't enter the PIS you can't open the doors at any station. You need to use the MASDO function to get the doors open. I can MASDO in a fraction of a second because its something I've done on numerous occasions. I am also circumventing the safety system in place and skipping a procedural step because there is a workaround to do it at speed. The correct way takes much longer and causes excessive delays. I can imagine a new Driver to a 700 explicitly using the correct procedure and causing a delay and a more experienced Driver with a 700 just using the workaround. The PIS procedure has also changed a lot since they were first introduced. This is because the initial way 700's worked was dumb as fork. (check the 700 thread) The PIS is also an 8 digit code. Only 4 are provided on your diagram. Consider how many ways you can enter a 4 digit code into a space requiring 8 digits. The first time you try it you are mashing combinations to try and figure it out. Now I do it without thinking. It's easy to understand how Drivers new to the unit are still playing catchup.

And that's just the PIS

There is also a few steps where if they were missed (easy to do) the unit sticks the brakes in about a second after it moves. This happened to many of us. To deal with it you had to do something very unnatural for a Driver and for more technophobic Drivers it just manifests as the DMI screaming a fault at you (a scary fault for a Driver tbvfh) This is a mandatory button press when setting up. There is also a issue where if a single button press is missed it won't release the brakes, one where you wouldn't know till you entered the core.

There is also a stupid issue with the DSD test. It manifest a fault !! There is only one way to clear it and if you were not clued up then again, you wont be able to release the brakes.

An example of how kinky these units are... You need to confirm your unit length on setup (setup won't complete without it) Remember these are fixed length units :/

With the GSMR on setup you must enter a headcode. I spoke with Seimens about what to do when we don't use one or can't setup (like in a sidings) and their response was [redacted]

You should only need to enter the 4 digit code with a 1 on the end

 

[OwenB]

On Southern it was 3 years after the emergency timetable was imposed before they reinstated our missing trains.

There really seems to be little motivation to make GTR improve their service. A failure in the whole rail system.

 

[ComUtoR]

You should only need to enter the 4 digit code with a 1 on the end

The new codes that were issues never worked and were printed on our diagrams incorrectly. Total drama every day since Mays change. We have 5 digit ones now When we get our amended diagrams now for the emergency timetable most of us use the get me home codes instead as the issued ones don't work or don't have the right stopping pattern.

FYI I have the entire RLU PIS database. Nice of them to forget weekend diversions into Vic...