Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[causton]

The engineering work from Alexandra Palace to Stevenage via WGC is now showing on the website where it wasn't before, but until a short time ago there was still a train showing as running via WGC as normal. It won't be and has now disappeared.

People need to get accurate information.

Quite big news about Euston blockade on three weekends next month. Usually Southern don't run at all, but NRE says 'it is not yet known how Southern will be affected' and the normal timetables are still showing.

I expect lots of angry customers when it turns out they don't run!!!

 

[Failed Unit]

Some 700 problems have been down to driver error. They were reported as a train fault and then later discovered to be a driver fault, as so many are only just trained. On that basis I hope the reliability will improve in the coming months.

313s are now starting to show signs of age and perhaps a slow down of maintenance because of said age and the fact they're meant to be going soon. Lots of seat backs loose or broken, and doors are now opening and closing slowly or sticking. Many door switch lights are out or hugely faded and even ceiling lights have failed. Cab air con is also faulty on some.

They do look in a rather sorry state.

I am sure Roger Ford would highlight in the piece if the drivers were seriously impacting these figures. But he is equally critical on all the new fleets. Saying they are worse than the pacers.

The 717s I suspect will also actually make performance worse at the beginning while they bed down.

 

[mmh]

Some 700 problems have been down to driver error. They were reported as a train fault and then later discovered to be a driver fault, as so many are only just trained. On that basis I hope the reliability will improve in the coming months.

But that still means there was a fault. A fault that perhaps the driver would know how to deal with on the unreliable old things, but don't know on a new train where faults shouldn't happen anyway.

It's either the train at fault, or the training. Blaming the drivers is straight out of the GTR book of staff and customer relations.

 

[OwenB]

But that still means there was a fault. A fault that perhaps the driver would know how to deal with on the unreliable old things, but don't know on a new train where faults shouldn't happen anyway.

It's either the train at fault, or the training. Blaming the drivers is straight out of the GTR book of staff and customer relations.

Can they blame Network Rail?

 

[bramling]

Some 700 problems have been down to driver error. They were reported as a train fault and then later discovered to be a driver fault, as so many are only just trained. On that basis I hope the reliability will improve in the coming months.

313s are now starting to show signs of age and perhaps a slow down of maintenance because of said age and the fact they're meant to be going soon. Lots of seat backs loose or broken, and doors are now opening and closing slowly or sticking. Many door switch lights are out or hugely faded and even ceiling lights have failed. Cab air con is also faulty on some.

They do look in a rather sorry state.

Agree about the 313s - they’re clearly in managed decline. The external state in particular is appalling. And of course they’re now working the most intensive timetable they’ve ever worked by some margin - or at least they would be if there were drivers to drive them!

As for Undesiro delays being down to drivers, don’t doubt it, however if so then it comes down to insufficient training. No wonder as everything has been done on a cross between a knife-edge and a shoe-string. How many years did the industry have to plan for all this?!

Anyway I’m back at work next week. Naturally it’s car for the weekend. Then hopefully 365s all the way!

 

[Hadders]

Some bad late running going north again this afternoon and evening. Late running of at least 10-15 minutes typical. Not acceptable.

More like half an hour. Skip stopping as well, not even calling at Stevenage on at least one service.

 

[bramling]

More like half an hour. Skip stopping as well, not even calling at Stevenage on at least one service.

It’s wonderful isn’t it - all these billions to create so-called extra capacity (or should that be capacity as some people on here seem to write it?), yet in reality we have late-running ThamesLink/ trains running around empty skipping many or all of their booked stops.

For all those billions I suspect we could have had a fully 12-car GN, which of course is something Thameslink Programme fails to provide. So much for maximising capacity...

Slightest whiff of problems and the network melts down.

 

[transmanche]

Reading modern railways. The class 700 is the least reliable in the GTR fleet. Worse then the 313s.

New units are always going to less-reliable than older units, New units always have teething problems. Old units (and you don't get older than the 313s) have long-passed any teething issues and everyone (drivers, fitters, etc) is familiar with how they work and how to resolve issues quickly.

I remind you again of the 458s, so unreliable when new in 2004 and only averaging about 4,000 miles per failure. So bad that SWT wanted to return them to the ROSCO. After some TLC they became the most reliable unit on the network by 2012 and the first to average over 100,000 miles per failure.

 

[mmh]

New units are always going to less-reliable than older units, New units always have teething problems. Old units (and you don't get older than the 313s) have long-passed any teething issues and everyone (drivers, fitters, etc) is familiar with how they work and how to resolve issues quickly.

I remind you again of the 458s, so unreliable when new in 2004 and only averaging about 4,000 miles per failure. So bad that SWT wanted to return them to the ROSCO. After some TLC they became the most reliable unit on the network by 2012 and the first to average over 100,000 miles per failure.

The class 700 is not a brand new unit. They've been in service for two years, with a very gentle introduction. If there are problems with them (and, are there?) how long a teething period is reasonable?

I'm sure I'm not alone if I speak for others here - those of us unfortunate enough to have to use Thameslink are getting just a little bit fed up of the Thameslink apologism from GTR, let alone on here. It'll all be fantastic, eventually. When?

I'm waiting for when they actually bother trying to use ATO in what, let's say two years time, by when the problem will be 4-5 year old trains with a system never used and it doesn't work any more.

 

[transmanche]

The class 700 is not a brand new unit. They've been in service for two years, with a very gentle introduction. If there are problems with them (and, are there?) how long a teething period is reasonable?

So all the drivers are experts on the 700s are they and they can all diagnose and resolve faults in under a minute? Or are we in the real world where drivers are getting used to them as opposed to older units like 313s that they've been driving for donkey's years.

How long did it take for the 458s to become the most reliable unit on the network?

 

[bramling]

So all the drivers are experts on the 700s are they and they can all diagnose and resolve faults in under a minute? Or are we in the real world where drivers are getting used to them as opposed to older units like 313s that they've been driving for donkey's years.

So too much change in too short a time. Congratulations to Thameslink Programme for charging in like a bull in a china shop.

 

[transmanche]

So too much change in too short a time.

No. It's what happens every time new stock is introduced. Always has. Always will.

I've said this before elsewhere. It even happened to the 1938 tube stock when new...

 

[jon0844]

As I said, there are teething problems with things like the drivers not releasing the doors quickly (it took drivers a while on TL to get good at this, and in some cases there were other issues like the positioning of stop boards etc). The same issues can be at the prep stage, meaning a train comes out of a yard/siding late.

I wouldn't say it's poor training, but when you're going through a LOT of drivers to get them all capable of driving 700s, there's a chance that when they go out for the first time in passenger service they're going to forget the odd thing as there may not have been time to go beyond the training and give tips and tricks.

They'll then need to call for advice, which takes time. With the problems of late, a train dealing with a door issue (which doesn't mean the train has failed) could see stations skipped, or even the service being cancelled altogether.

These issues will go once the GN drivers are not only authorised to drive them but also build up a knowledge to do their own fault finding and fixing.

I'll stand corrected if there are faults I am not aware of. This week some trains have been short formed (8 cars instead of 12 cars) because some trains were in the wrong places. I don't think it was down to units being repaired. Again, I'll stand corrected if I am wrong.

 

[mmh]

So all the drivers are experts on the 700s are they and they can all diagnose and resolve faults in under a minute? Or are we in the real world where drivers are getting used to them as opposed to older units like 313s that they've been driving for donkey's years.

I'll ask again. What are the faults that happen on 700s which are driver faults, and if these do happen why are they still happening two years later on a train which should have been running the most intensive service ever seen, including a new signalling system and automatic operation which isn't even being used?

How long did it take for the 458s to become the most reliable unit on the network?

I've no idea, and I'm not sure of the relevance. I do know that they're that old that when they were first introduced people were calling them 4JOP's in old Southern region style, and that perhaps the best part of 20 years later they were rebuilt with bits from the failed Gatwick Express units. Is that the best we can hope for from a 700?

 

[bramling]

No. It's what happens every time new stock is introduced. Always has. Always will.

I've said this before elsewhere. It even happened to the 1938 tube stock when new...

Yes so how about getting the rolling stock bedded in *well* before changing the timetable, let alone introducing such a radical timetable change?

Shambleslink Programme.

 

[mmh]

As I said, there are teething problems with things like the drivers not releasing the doors quickly (it took drivers a while on TL to get good at this, and in some cases there were other issues like the positioning of stop boards etc). The same issues can be at the prep stage, meaning a train comes out of a yard/siding late.

They had at least five years to put stop boards in the right places. These trains have been going between Bedford and London Bridge and Brighton for the past two years in service. Nothing should be surprising about them.

I wouldn't say it's poor training, but when you're going through a LOT of drivers to get them all capable of driving 700s, there's a chance that when they go out for the first time in passenger service they're going to forget the odd thing as there may not have been time to go beyond the training and give tips and tricks.

They'll then need to call for advice, which takes time. With the problems of late, a train dealing with a door issue (which doesn't mean the train has failed) could see stations skipped, or even the service being cancelled altogether.

But they're state of the art. Sure they'll be different, but what tips and tricks should be needed on a state of the art unit specifically designed for the their route?

These issues will go once the GN drivers are not only authorised to drive them but also build up a knowledge to do their own fault finding and fixing.

Again, I think it's nothing to do with drivers and their competency. GN drivers coped perfectly well with Electrostars which would have been completely new to them as well.

Apologies if I'm being a bit blunt, I'm just fed up to the back teeth of the excuses and I won't accept any blame for "teething problems" being put on the front-line staff.

 

[tsr]

Again, I think it's nothing to do with drivers and their competency. GN drivers coped perfectly well with Electrostars which would have been completely new to them as well.

Apologies if I'm being a bit blunt, I'm just fed up to the back teeth of the excuses and I won't accept any blame for "teething problems" being put on the front-line staff.

I can confirm the drivers took some time to get used to the Desiro units and the lack of familiarity did cause problems.

If you recall, GTR have had problems with Electrostars not being very human-friendly. Even now, about once a week there’s a new notice or brief about some aspect of them which needs a new or revised procedure. So you’re talking potential decades of gaining familiarity.

 

[jon0844]

I'll ask again. What are the faults that happen on 700s which are driver faults, and if these do happen why are they still happening two years later on a train which should have been running the most intensive service ever seen, including a new signalling system and automatic operation which isn't even being used?

Different drivers! The ones on TL were trained and had issues but are presumably now fully up to speed with them.

Now GN drivers are being trained, and they're having the same issues because they're not used to them yet. Soon they all will be, and the silly problems will go away. That doesn't mean trains won't fail, obviously.

It's not some big conspiracy. It really is best explained as teething problems, because the driver is an important part of the equation.

When the 717s come in, that's another lot of drivers needing to be 700/717 trained. I assume the 387s had the same issues when introduced on the GN side too, whereas TL drivers were able to adapt quickly having been used to the 377s.

 

[Failed Unit]

Different drivers! The ones on TL were trained and had issues but are presumably now fully up to speed with them.

Now GN drivers are being trained, and they're having the same issues because they're not used to them yet. Soon they all will be, and the silly problems will go away. That doesn't mean trains won't fail, obviously.

It's not some big conspiracy. It really is best explained as teething problems, because the driver is an important part of the equation.

When the 717s come in, that's another lot of drivers needing to be 700/717 trained. I assume the 387s had the same issues when introduced on the GN side too, whereas TL drivers were able to adapt quickly having been used to the 377s.

This low figure is based on the entire fleet not the GN side alone. Is the lack of familiarity on the GN side really giving such a poor result?

Yes all new units have teething problems. The source of the article admits as much. They probably will become very reliable trains. The point that Roger Ford makes is they are taking a lot longer than he expected to reach these levels. I don’t think we has an axe to grind and makes the same comment about the London overground and great western fleets.

As everyone points out GN are a small % of the trains ran by GTR. If it is really all the drivers fault the reliability is so poor (which i don’t believe for 1 minute) then I doubt GN is bringing this average down by that much. I understand they fail on the Thameslink side as well.

I do remember the 387 issues, I remember seeing the failure results for them in January. They were not as bad as the 700s. But a remember Bombardier travelling with the drivers early doors and the fact they could still substitute 321s if needed helped.

As I said I am sure the 700s will be fine. Just hope it doesn’t take as long to get there as it did on the 458s.

I do find it concerning that the GTR apologists blame the drivers for any criticism of the trains. Non of the new trains are covering themselves in glory not just the ones operated by GTR. The problem is with the GTR operation is they have handed back the 365s (which could be used on London - Cambridge) a single failure causes rapid timetable collapse as we have no wriggle room. London overground is still using the 315s with no hurry to get them out. Not sure if GWR is under the same pressure to get the HSTs away. When the 717s come in hopefully they can keep the 313s running just in case. But an issue on route will still cause massive impact.

 

[ComUtoR]

They had at least five years to put stop boards in the right places.

And yet, they have been both removed and moved in the past couple of weeks. We have boards on a line where you are not allowed to stop and we stop an RLU in the wrong place deliberately because there is a, no board and b, they don't want it stopping correctly.

But they're state of the art. Sure they'll be different, but what tips and tricks should be needed on a state of the art unit specifically designed for the their route?

Quite a few. 700s, just like other units, have their own foibles to get used to. In some respects they can be quite stupid.

Again, I think it's nothing to do with drivers and their competency. GN drivers coped perfectly well with Electrostars which would have been completely new to them as well.

I drive and have driven 7 different classes. I currently drive 3. I have been driving for over 10yrs. There is an issue with competency. 700s are new units and we are still picking up various little kinks and learning how to deal with them. One of our Drivers relayed a funny story to me just this week of how he almost failed his unit because of a specific quirk he didn't notice and hes been on as long as me.

Apologies if I'm being a bit blunt, I'm just fed up to the back teeth of the excuses and I won't accept any blame for "teething problems" being put on the front-line staff.

Not so much 'blame' but Driver error does happen and will continue to. Its just one of the many many issues that contribute to this debacle.

 

[Class 466]

Sat outsided Blackfriars for 15 minutes today as the train in front had no driver... Seems like after a week or so of it being good a few issues are starting to creep back in

 

[OwenB]

Sat outsided Blackfriars for 15 minutes today as the train in front had no driver... Seems like after a week or so of it being good a few issues are starting to creep back in

Anecdotally, it's felt like the service has fallen apart again since the overhead wire issue up near Cambridge earlier in the week.

 

[bionic]

Sat outsided Blackfriars for 15 minutes today as the train in front had no driver... Seems like after a week or so of it being good a few issues are starting to creep back in

The whole point of closing Blackfriars depot, as I understood it, was to remove crew reliefs there and reduce potential delays and disruption associated with this. That lasted about 8 weeks! Blackfriars is now back as a driver changeover point.

 

[HH]

Yes all new units have teething problems. The source of the article admits as much. They probably will become very reliable trains. The point that Roger Ford makes is they are taking a lot longer than he expected to reach these levels. I don’t think we has an axe to grind and makes the same comment about the London overground and great western fleets.

The expected profile is generally called a bathtub curve, which should give some idea of what to expect. Fact is that some units bed down quickly and some don't; I've not seen that anyone has worked out exactly why that is. No doubt that some introductions are handled better than others - that is inevitable, but it's possibly not the key factor.

 

[Failed Unit]

The expected profile is generally called a bathtub curve, which should give some idea of what to expect. Fact is that some units bed down quickly and some don't; I've not seen that anyone has worked out exactly why that is. No doubt that some introductions are handled better than others - that is inevitable, but it's possibly not the key factor.

Yep. I think Roger Ford is more surprised that they are not climbing back out the bathtub. But at least they are not going down. I know some of the fleet will also be suffering from “infant mortality”. Many electronic things either fail quickly or work forever. (Ok not forever but sure you understand where I am going with this).

 

[jon0844]

I am not having a go at drivers by saying they're 'learning on the job' as it were. They will gain knowledge over time and the new ones are probably making mistakes that have been made before. It's unfortunate but inevitable. I am not suggesting any safety of the line incidents, just simple fault finding and perhaps failing a train that hadn't actually failed.

I am sure most drivers would be honest and say they're still learning. How could they not? There are still plenty of drivers (like almost all WGC based drivers) who haven't even started learning yet.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am not having a go at drivers by saying they're 'learning on the job' as it were. They will gain knowledge over time and the new ones are probably making mistakes that have been made before. It's unfortunate but inevitable. I am not suggesting any safety of the line incidents, just simple fault finding and perhaps failing a train that hadn't actually failed.

I am sure most drivers would be honest and say they're still learning. How could they not? There are still plenty of drivers (like almost all WGC based drivers) who haven't even started learning yet.

Here are the numbers.

Number of units / train sets - 107
Number of TINs - 150
Unit Miles - 857280
MTIN - 5715
MTIN MAA - 6418

Very high numbers that you would expect the odd driver error would be lost in the noise.

Compare this with the 345
Number of trainsets - 15
Number of TINs - 18
Unit miles - 58789
MTIN - 3266
MTIN MAA - 1218

So the 700s look good here, but on the 345s a single driver error will really hit the average because of the low baseline. Don’t buy that driver errors are the main reason the 700s are not improving. Maybe a fair comparison is with the newer SWT 707

Number of train sets - 30
Number of TINs - 22
Unit miles - 200442
MTIN - 9111
MTIN MAA - 6418

Interesting thing is the 700s is the only train in the new batch where the MTIN is lower than the MTIN MAA. Maybe it that reinforces the claim it is all down to the drivers.

 

[bramling]

Anecdotally, it's felt like the service has fallen apart again since the overhead wire issue up near Cambridge earlier in the week.

Today not doing well. Again delays of 15 minutes on many northbound core services, picked up south of St Pancras.

24tph really?

 

[ComUtoR]

Blackfriars is now back as a driver changeover point.

Its never stopped being a changeover point.

 

[Aictos]

Its never stopped being a changeover point.

I thought it did which is why they closed the depot in the first place, if it never stopped being a change over point for train crew why did they close the depot?