Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Fred26]

I wonder if dispatch procedures are an issue. For example a special stop order on a 12-car 365 at Arlesey. Could a driver refuse such a stop if a platform dispatcher isn't available?

Yes. One-man dispatch on a 12-car takes ages... if it's done properly.

 

[tsr]

I wonder if dispatch procedures are an issue. For example a special stop order on a 12-car 365 at Arlesey. Could a driver refuse such a stop if a platform dispatcher isn't available?

Potentially, if no safe dispatch method was available, yes.

My commute misses the worst of the problems, but on the both of the two occasions that I've personally witnessed drivers refusing to make an extra stop that has been previously announced, it's been on safety grounds because the train has already been packed and bursting with passengers. Obviously I have no idea if my sample size of two accurately reflects the bigger situation

That’s fair enough, but not the full picture.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess the other thing that interests me about the stop orders is why the signaller isn’t kept in the loop. Hear many instances where trains are on the fast line and can’t stop.

What should happen here. Should the driver stop and report to the signaller when they know the route is set incorrectly (backing up trains behind) or carry on an report it later.

 

[Hadders]

Early on in the shambles a train was advertised on the departure board at Kings Cross as calling additionally at Arlesey. It was a 12-car 365, fully wedged.

Driver comes along and announces on the PA that the train wouldn't be calling at Arlesey. Flustered platform staff seen in animated discussion with driver. Driver repeats message that the train won't be calling at Arlesey. Departure screen continued to say that it will.

I suspect the intention was to make a Special Stop at Arlesey but the driver refused. I've no idea why they refused but suspect it was related to dispatch at Arlesey as I believe this has been an issue before.

 

[BRX]

Just make the whole interior like the first class and they wouldn’t be too bad.

So, take a design the whole purpose of which is to provide as high a capacity as possible, and 'improve' it by substantially reducing the capacity?

 

[Fred26]

The 700 seats need padding, and the seats need to be moved away from the trunking. I've never seen a need for seats facing each other, but that's just personal taste, nothing more.

 

[OwenB]

The 700 seats need padding, and the seats need to be moved away from the trunking. I've never seen a need for seats facing each other, but that's just personal taste, nothing more.

The regular seats, except the priority seats nearest to the doors, do not have adequate legroom either. I'm not a tall man (5'8") and I struggle.
I certainly agree about the seats facing each other, good for families and groups of leisure travellers, but not useful for commuters.

 

[Hadders]

So, take a design the whole purpose of which is to provide as high a capacity as possible, and 'improve' it by substantially reducing the capacity?

The 365 layout is a superb compromise layout. If this type of layout had been used in the 700s I think everyone would be happy.

There's absolutely no need for the bargain basement interior we've got on the 700s.

 

[radamfi]

Facing seats are no good because they have had feet on them.

 

[ungreat]

Drivers seem confident things will run a lot better]

Not sure what drivers you've been talking to mate!!

 

[malc-c]

A man dangling from a bridge just north of WGC. Police negotiators went to the site to bring them down, with trains cautioned for some time. Plus a speed restriction on the up line south of WGC (20mph).

Oh no ! - not good - Couldn't find anything in the local newspaper websites, and the station master at Knebworth didn't mention anything

 

[Downthelane]

There's absolutely no need for the bargain basement interior we've got on the 700s.

There is a need as the extra luxury costs money and who exactly pays for that?

If it's the Taxpayer you can imagine the Daily Mail's view on 'fat cat commuters' getting nice seats funded by white van man and the baby boomers (who all fought through two world wars don't forget....)

If it's us as season ticket holders we would be angry if fares went up to pay for seats we never get a chance to sit on the peaks.

Rolling stock is surely designed with pragmatism in mind.

 

[Hadders]

There is a need as the extra luxury costs money and who exactly pays for that?

If it's the Taxpayer you can imagine the Daily Mail's view on 'fat cat commuters' getting nice seats funded by white van man and the baby boomers (who all fought through two world wars don't forget....)

If it's us as season ticket holders we would be angry if fares went up to pay for seats we never get a chance to sit on the peaks.

Rolling stock is surely designed with pragmatism in mind.

Charming. With this approach why not go for wooden benches on all new trains. Or better still rip out all the seats and make everyone stand.

 

[Downthelane]

I was making a fair point I think.

The country has voted for austerity why would funding for trains be any different.

Brexit or nice seats, you can't have both.

 

[Aictos]

Potentially, if no safe dispatch method was available, yes.



That’s fair enough, but not the full picture.

Oh no ! - not good - Couldn't find anything in the local newspaper websites, and the station master at Knebworth didn't mention anything

To be pedant, the role of Station Master was lost when BR got privatised and replaced with the role of Station Manager.

 

[AM9]

I was making a fair point I think.

The country has voted for austerity why would funding for trains be any different.

Brexit or nice seats, you can't have both.

I suspect that the Desiro City trains will remain as specified and delivered (apart from the sop of tables that have been retrofitted) throughout their working life. They will probably be refitted sometime in the early thirties but unless their role is significantly changed, they will be substantially as they are now, i.e. high density outer-suburban EMUs.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I suspect that the Desiro City trains will remain as specified and delivered (apart from the sop of tables that have been retrofitted) throughout their working life. They will probably be refitted sometime in the early thirties but unless their role is significantly changed, they will be substantially as they are now, i.e. high density outer-suburban EMUs.

hmm... having been on one of GWR's new intercity trains yesterday I think it's more a "new" fashion in the rail industry to have virtually upright seats with minimal padding... strange seeing as so many TOC's are operated by companies that had their origin in bus operation... where the same fashion came and went about 10 years ago... after they found out how such uncomfortable seats decimated their customer numbers!

 

[Hadders]

I was making a fair point I think.

The country has voted for austerity why would funding for trains be any different.

Brexit or nice seats, you can't have both.

What a ridiculous comment. The interior design was fixed long before the Brexit vote.

 

[OwenB]

What a ridiculous comment. The interior design was fixed long before the Brexit vote.

We should hold a referendum on seat cushioning.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do the GN diagrams interwork at all any more?

Ie do drivers work both inners and outers in the same day?or even ever?

Still trying to work out why the inners frequency is reduced to 3 Tph off peak when it mainly ran. Is it for 717 training or so more drivers can be trained on the 700s?

Also thinking of if tfl takes over the inners will it mess up diagrams again?

Mixed views on the new timetable - it is rubbish compared to what was promised. The weekends is totally unacceptable. If it succeeds then we get a reliable service but keep GTR. If it fails we have a rubbish service but hopefully get rid of GTR. It is a heads I win tails you lose situation.

 

[Downthelane]

What a ridiculous comment. The interior design was fixed long before the Brexit vote.

Of course it was but the austerity introduced by Cameron's government has defined how these trains are built.

If you voted for that you cannot then moan about softer seats.

 

[Sebastian O]

Early on in the shambles a train was advertised on the departure board at Kings Cross as calling additionally at Arlesey. It was a 12-car 365, fully wedged.

Driver comes along and announces on the PA that the train wouldn't be calling at Arlesey. Flustered platform staff seen in animated discussion with driver. Driver repeats message that the train won't be calling at Arlesey. Departure screen continued to say that it will.

I suspect the intention was to make a Special Stop at Arlesey but the driver refused. I've no idea why they refused but suspect it was related to dispatch at Arlesey as I believe this has been an issue before.

Platform staff need to realise that their job isn’t to drive the train and respect the drivers choice as to why he’s not going to be taking that particular stop order.

Unfortunately if he followed it to the letter and something went wrong, it wouldn’t be the platform staff up in the office for a meeting without tea and biscuits.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Of course it was but the austerity introduced by Cameron's government has defined how these trains are built.

If you voted for that you cannot then moan about softer seats.

what utter tosh lol.... Conservative governments are renowned for requiring "value for money" which in reality means "done on the cheap" whether we had voted leave or remain, the result for seat cushioning would have been the same... Cameron and his ilk know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

*edit* sorry misread your post... thought you was referring to Brexit... so in fact I agree with your comment

 

[Downthelane]

*edit* sorry misread your post... thought you was referring to Brexit... so in fact I agree with your comment

Hence why this shambles is now a huge political issue and marginal MPs like Shapps are nervously assessing the impact.

Austerity for the Home Counties is usually something done "up north" and out of their back yard, however the 'ignorant' Tory voters of Herts have suddenly realised what you get when you cut costs and now it's hurting them (literally and metaphorically) they will turn.

 

[bramling]

So, take a design the whole purpose of which is to provide as high a capacity as possible, and 'improve' it by substantially reducing the capacity?

Most engineering and design is a trade-off, and it’s not unreasonable to suggest that this trade-off has gone too far in one direction. In any case the capacity reduction is a little overstated, how did we manage all those years with 317s, 319s etc - often four cars only?!

 

[London55]

What is the legal obligation on train companies to run trains they advertised and require passengers to buy tickets in advance then don't run the service or run it poorly like severe delays..etc. Why thameslink refuses to pay for other fees like missed flight or late childcare fees? Delay repay system is broken and cannot compensate for the money lost, stress and inconvenience. Anyone thought of pressing charges against thameslink?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To be pedant, the role of Station Master was lost when BR got privatised and replaced with the role of Station Manager.

There was probably a proper Station Master in about 1966 , now you have distant and commercial / safety compliance "managers" at say Stevenage ...

 

[bramling]

Hence why this shambles is now a huge political issue and marginal MPs like Shapps are nervously assessing the impact.

Austerity for the Home Counties is usually something done "up north" and out of their back yard, however the 'ignorant' Tory voters of Herts have suddenly realised what you get when you cut costs and now it's hurting them (literally and metaphorically) they will turn.

I’m not necessarily convinced it’s austerity. Just rubbish incompetent design, just like the rest of the Shambleslink Programme.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’m not necessarily convinced it’s austerity. Just rubbish incompetent design, just like the rest of the Shambleslink Programme.

I used to , in BR days ,complain that the "wonks" at Derby never knew what it was like to travel in a 150 or a 317 say (look at some of those classic posed shots of RTC check suited blokes in a train) , however the 700 - technical great though it is , is a new low for seating and legroom. Compare a S6 or a Met line unit.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I used to , in BR days ,complain that the "wonks" at Derby never knew what it was like to travel in a 150 or a 317 say (look at some of those classic posed shots of RTC check suited blokes in a train) , however the 700 - technical great though it is , is a new low for seating and legroom. Compare a S6 or a Met line unit.

perhaps it's a cunning ploy? if the seats are so uncomfortable that no-one wants to sit in them then they can do a survey and say "see no-one wants to sit down" they can then rip all the seats out and let everyone stand in comfort?