Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[JonathanH]

9T00 0004 Brighton to Bedford

Train got to Norwood Junction and had to reverse and run via Crystal Palace due to engineering works.

Looks like two reversals - one at Penge West and then again at Norwood Junction - presumably missed curfew for engineering works due to late running.

 

[JonathanH]

The 9.33 to Horsham from Redhill is cancelled throughout. This is a Thameslink service.

The 8.42 to Gatwick (from Reading) is cancelled from Redhill owing to it being 22 minutes late at the moment, due to overrunning engineering works. That's a Great Western Railway service.

National Rail Enquiries App suggests it will arrive 8.59. If it doesn't arrive then but later, what are the chances of them holding the 9.03 to Horsham for passengers? If they don't they will be waiting for the 9.43, which is the next one from Reading or having to get buses, which might take as long as waiting for the 9.43 for all I know.

Looks like they did hold it which seems fortunate.

 

[greyman42]

9T00 0004 Brighton to Bedford

Train got to Norwood Junction and had to reverse and run via Crystal Palace due to engineering works. When the driver was changing ends he was verbally & physically abused by drunk angry passengers. Somewhat heroically, the driver agreed to take the train forward to Blackfriars where it was terminated. Passengers waiting at St Pancras for this train were put in 6 buses and 14 taxis for their onward journey. Hope to god the driver is ok, poor guy.

Surely there must be some CTV recording of this incident that the police can use to prosecute the individuals concerned, if they can be traced?

 

[Aictos]

9T00 0004 Brighton to Bedford

Train got to Norwood Junction and had to reverse and run via Crystal Palace due to engineering works. When the driver was changing ends he was verbally & physically abused by drunk angry passengers. Somewhat heroically, the driver agreed to take the train forward to Blackfriars where it was terminated. Passengers waiting at St Pancras for this train were put in 6 buses and 14 taxis for their onward journey. Hope to god the driver is ok, poor guy.

Same here, it's disgusting that the driver was assaulted like that - That said the driver must have been made of stern stuff to continue to Blackfriars as I would have expected anyone under these circumstances to refuse to continue and ask for a relief.

That said, it's disappointing that GTR and Network Rail put the wrong reason for the delay in as according to RTT the train was terminated at Blackfriars due to planned engineering works between Blackfriars and Bedford when I would have thought the correct delay code was VA (Disorder/drunks/trespass) as that was the main reason for the train being 48 mins late at Blackfriars.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That said, it's disappointing that GTR and Network Rail put the wrong reason for the delay in as according to RTT the train was terminated at Blackfriars due to planned engineering works between Blackfriars and Bedford when I would have thought the correct delay code was VA (Disorder/drunks/trespass) as that was the main reason for the train being 48 mins late at Blackfriars.

Would it not have been a signaller's error for routing the train towards a block?

 

[Dunnyrail]

New PDF Timetables now showing on the GN site

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

Many thanks for posting this link. I have not gone through it all but one I have noticed Mon-Fri 1024 x Peterborough via Huntingdon nothing till 1154 then 1254 and then two at 24/54 an hour till 1600 with nothing then odd timings at peak etc. Much better if it works, but there are a fair number that travel South and of course School Kids at 1600!

But at least some to KX and some via the core will be good. Hopefully the Indicators at KX will be showing TL trains at PX by then on the Peterborough and Cambridge lines?

 

[bramling]

Hopefully from the 15th the only issues causing cancellations will be the 'traditional' issues like a train fault, wires down, signalling problems.. Every train will have a booked driver and relief, so unless staff fall ill then all should run as planned.

I know it's going to be hard for anyone to believe this is possible, but even though it feels like years ago, trains DID run pretty well before May 20 and hopefully can again.

Weekends will provide a pretty dismal service for many though, but I think leisure travellers are considered expendable for the time being. And if it allows the drivers to get the relevant training done, it will be worth it in the long run.

At least on a weekend you'll be able to see that there's only one train an hour and plan for it. The only problem is when any one train does get cancelled and there's now a two hour wait.. but I pray this will not be common.

One of the really frustrating things in all this is the way the weekend service remains awful for the foreseeable future. The one weak link of the old timetable was weekends, where there simply wasn’t enough capacity - especially with events on or good weather, plus the service has become unusable thanks to cancellations. I’d really hoped that the more frequent service and longer trains might prove a game-changer at weekends, instead we look to be worse than before. It’s all very well saying weekends can be sacrificed to release drivers for training or whatever, but many people *need* reliable weekend services to get to work. I’m glad I have a car, however not everyone is so fortunate to have a readily feasible alternative.

I’d say it’s a safe bet that GTR will get the boot if there isn’t a pretty immediate improvement after 15th July. And of course it depends how one defines improvement - Peterborough services 30 minutes late due to congestion on the Brighton line is still unacceptable for example.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Having seen the timetable I'm quite surprised at just how many services are still in it, certainly far more than are currently running on any day at the moment. I genuinely hope it works but I won't be overly surprised if there's still issues - hopefully they won't be major ones.

For those wondering: weekends on GN will be Kings Cross only until further notice.

Breaths great sigh of relief.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Many thanks for posting this link. I have not gone through it all but one I have noticed Mon-Fri 1024 x Peterborough via Huntingdon nothing till 1154 then 1254 and then two at 24/54 an hour till 1600 with nothing then odd timings at peak etc. Much better if it works, but there are a fair number that travel South and of course School Kids at 1600!

But at least some to KX and some via the core will be good. Hopefully the Indicators at KX will be showing TL trains at PX by then on the Peterborough and Cambridge lines?

Sorry note that was the intermediate TT, the new one is somewhat better than that.

 

[jon0844]

I’d say it’s a safe bet that GTR will get the boot if there isn’t a pretty immediate improvement after 15th July. And of course it depends how one defines improvement - Peterborough services 30 minutes late due to congestion on the Brighton line is still unacceptable for example.

Do we really think the DfT would step in at this moment if it all goes wrong? If it does, nobody can save things. If it doesn't then of course they could and show how they fixed it all by themselves, but under what grounds could they step in if the new timetable - agreed by the DfT - works?

Politicians want/need to sound tough, but they know how good it is to have GTR and Network Rail to blame. You'd be mad to take full control when you have such a great arrangement.

 

[paul332]

The improved timetable removes yet more northbound stoppers on the Bedford line. Cricklewood and Hendon now have 45 and 67 minute gaps after 08:25 where there should be a 15-minute service. Evidently no one gives a damn for the locals. May those who are responsible for this continuing shambles ROT IN HELL.

 

[OwenB]

Do we really think the DfT would step in at this moment if it all goes wrong? If it does, nobody can save things. If it doesn't then of course they could and show how they fixed it all by themselves, but under what grounds could they step in if the new timetable - agreed by the DfT - works?

Politicians want/need to sound tough, but they know how good it is to have GTR and Network Rail to blame. You'd be mad to take full control when you have such a great arrangement.

Parliament goes on its summer recess soon, nothing will happen in this time.

 

[Aictos]

Would it not have been a signaller's error for routing the train towards a block?

No because if you read SprinterMan's post you would understand why I felt the wrong delay code was used.

 

[theageofthetra]

Would it not have been a signaller's error for routing the train towards a block?

A very good point. In fact could a really difficult manager who disliked a driver try to do them for accepting a wrong route?

 

[Surreytraveller]

A very good point. In fact could a really difficult manager who disliked a driver try to do them for accepting a wrong route?

A driver wouldn't be expected to know the line on their booked route would be blocked though, would they?

 

[JonathanH]

A very good point. In fact could a really difficult manager who disliked a driver try to do them for accepting a wrong route?

The train was running late and timetabled via London Bridge - what is much more likely is that the block was due to be taken after passage of this train - because it was running late, they realised it would not get through and had to reverse it.

 

[Hadders]

Do we really think the DfT would step in at this moment if it all goes wrong?

I don't think the Government will run it themselves. It's the ultimate poisoned chalice. I know LNER is publicly owned but that's a very simple operation, fewer than 50 trains running around 150 services a day. GTR is on a different scale and I doubt the Government would want to be associated with operating it directly.

What I do think we'll see is an announcement about accelerating the break up of GTR. For example:

- Moorgate services to TfL
- Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts to LNER
- Southern as a separate franchise
- That leaves the rump of the 'traditional' old First Capital Connect services to operate a new Thameslink franchise

Personally I wouldn't want to see the Cambridge/Kings Lynn services transfer to LNER. I believe they should stay with Thameslink simply because at times of disruption the Cambridge/Kings Lynn services are used to make additional calls and if it is a separate franchise this is less likely to happen.

 

[jon0844]

Some of that has been talked about since before the service went south, particularly the London Overground takeover of the inners. In fact I thought it was the DfT that pretty much stopped this happening already (that and perhaps TfL having no money, except they would be interested if the DfT has paid for new rolling stock and station upgrade work, which is currently ongoing at many stations). Some new seat covers and vinyls - ready to go almost overnight.

It's people like my local MP that seems set to try and make out that some planned changes at the next franchise/contract were his idea.

 

[Hadders]

Shifting the Moorgate service to TfL would be a quick win for the Government (even though they'd have the embarrassment of handing over the service to a Labour Mayor).

They could claim credit for the new trains!
Public perception of the Overground is high
Oyster/Contactless would be seen as a positive (although would weekend super off peak tickets be kept outside the Zones?)
It's a reasonably self contained service to no major issues separating it out
They'd need to get a move on with platform 5 at Stevenage though (but then the local MP would be able to claim credit for getting it done!)

 

[OwenB]

Shifting the Moorgate service to TfL would be a quick win for the Government (even though they'd have the embarrassment of handing over the service to a Labour Mayor).

They could claim credit for the new trains!
Public perception of the Overground is high
Oyster/Contactless would be seen as a positive (although would weekend super off peak tickets be kept outside the Zones?)
It's a reasonably self contained service to no major issues separating it out
They'd need to get a move on with platform 5 at Stevenage though (but then the local MP would be able to claim credit for getting it done!)

Agree. Although there's nothing inherently wrong with the Moorgate line. Certainly nothing the new, more reliable trains wouldn't solve 80% of. It's been a saviour for me trying to get back to Hatfield from London since 20th May. Easy win for the government, but doesn't solve any problems whatsoever as far as I can see.

 

[infobleep]

Looks like they did hold it which seems fortunate.

Quite. Considering the number of times I've read on here about Redhill to Reading stoppers not being held for 2 minutes and people than having a hour way for the next one, admittly some time before the new timetable, it's nice for once to see some common sense.

Incidentally the Horsham train was further delayed into Gatwick and was 19 minutes late leaving there, so passengers likely to have arrived about 8.35 so just the 45 minute delay. Still that's better than an hour I guess.

Passengers travelling from Redhill could claim for a 15 minute delay. Passengers from any station on the Reading line to Redhill no chance.

 

[Abpj17]

Possibly stupid question, but given the complexity merging and diverging through the core, wouldn’t there be some logic in running all services on GTR as all station stopping services ?

Yes commuters from St Albans / Hatfield etc would have a small amount added to their journeys. But surely all trains running at the same speed and same stopping patterns would allow some greater capacity / regularity of service to stations which currently have insanely irregular service since the change. It would also help move crews around more regularly.

Maybe agree a timetable review in 18months when some order has been restored ?

How DfT have kept the heat of this off themselves is truly a remarkable achievement.

Variations could be made to work on Thameslink North. In practice, you wouldn't have all trains as all stations south of St Albans because with starts at Bedford, Luton and St Albans that's a lot.

And 18 months would be far too long to cope with it!

And because there are fast and slow lines, you don't need all with the same speed/stopping patterns - some can nip up the MML/EMT fast lines to St A then all stop from there.

 

[Aictos]

A driver wouldn't be expected to know the line on their booked route would be blocked though, would they?

Actually they should know as this information is made available via publications such as the STN (Special Traffic Notice), Late Alternations Board (At depots), WON (Weekly Operation Notice) etc so there really is no reason for any train crew to not be aware of any engineering works unless this information is not made available which is highly unlikely.

I don't think the Government will run it themselves. It's the ultimate poisoned chalice. I know LNER is publicly owned but that's a very simple operation, fewer than 50 trains running around 150 services a day. GTR is on a different scale and I doubt the Government would want to be associated with operating it directly.

What I do think we'll see is an announcement about accelerating the break up of GTR. For example:

- Moorgate services to TfL
- Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts to LNER
- Southern as a separate franchise
- That leaves the rump of the 'traditional' old First Capital Connect services to operate a new Thameslink franchise

Personally I wouldn't want to see the Cambridge/Kings Lynn services transfer to LNER. I believe they should stay with Thameslink simply because at times of disruption the Cambridge/Kings Lynn services are used to make additional calls and if it is a separate franchise this is less likely to happen.

I agree and disagree with your post, for example:

I agree that the proposed breakup of GTR will happen sooner then later, maybe brought forward to 2020.

I agree that we will likely see:

Moorgate services to London Overground with extension of Oyster to Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North (I believe it is proposed as far as Watton at Stone but that is a station too far imo)

Southern Metro eventually going to London Overground

Cambridge/Kings Lynn fasts to LNER which has been proposed and I think is a likely outcome however they could equally go to the Anglia Franchise.

Southern as a separate franchise including Gatwick Express and West London Line services minus the Metro services

With the remaining Great Northern and Thameslink services being branded as Thameslink even these which don't go though the Core.

I disagree that the Cambridge/Kings Lynns Expresses ought to stay with Thameslink just because they can make extra stops in times of disruption for the simple reason that they can do that regardless of who operates these routes for example in times of disruption LNER and their predecessors can and do call at Huntingdon even though they are not operated by GTR or their predecessors.

 

[mmh]

Moorgate services to London Overground with extension of Oyster to Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North (I believe it is proposed as far as Watton at Stone but that is a station too far imo)

Southern Metro eventually going to London Overground

TFL's finances are in tatters, so I don't think there'll be any large scale increases to their empire in the near future.

 

[Hadders]

Agree. Although there's nothing inherently wrong with the Moorgate line. Certainly nothing the new, more reliable trains wouldn't solve 80% of. It's been a saviour for me trying to get back to Hatfield from London since 20th May. Easy win for the government, but doesn't solve any problems whatsoever as far as I can see.

That's Government all over - claim credit for the easy wins.

I disagree that the Cambridge/Kings Lynns Expresses to stay with Thameslink just because they can make extra stops in times of disruption for the simple reason that they can do that regardless of who operates these routes for example in times of disruption LNER and their predecessors can and do call at Huntingdon even though they are not operated by GTR or their predecessors.

With Thameslink an incident on the Brighton Mainline could mean disruption to services at Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Baldock, Letchworth, Ashwell & Morden, Meldreth, Shepreth, Foxton as well as Arlesey, Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon (excluding Potters Bar, Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City as they have inners to fall back on). There needs to be very close co-operation between the operator of the Cambridge/Kings Lynn services and Thameslink services when things go wrong. That is why I think it's better if the services remain with the same operator.

TfL won't operate a service without Oyster/Contactless being allowed so Watton would have to have it as would Stevenage (although they could probably get away with Stevenage for a few years as a replacement bus is due to operate for 3 years until platform 5 is built).

 

[OwenB]

That's Government all over - claim credit for the easy wins.

Yep! Absolutely agree with you. All aboard the Grant Shapps train for getting political careers back on track.

 

[bramling]

Do we really think the DfT would step in at this moment if it all goes wrong? If it does, nobody can save things. If it doesn't then of course they could and show how they fixed it all by themselves, but under what grounds could they step in if the new timetable - agreed by the DfT - works?

Politicians want/need to sound tough, but they know how good it is to have GTR and Network Rail to blame. You'd be mad to take full control when you have such a great arrangement.

I’m not sure the DFT would step in, however they could certainly announce that the franchise would end early, and that a refranchising will happen - possibly with altered boundaries. Deflects attention from themselves.

I don’t see why there is such a thing about transferring the Moorgates to TFL. The new trains are already on the point of delivery, there’s little capacity enhancement they could get out of the infrastructure, so we’d be left with station spruce ups, ticketing changes, and not much else. At the same time all the disadvantages of the route having multiple operators. Thameslink Programme is the cause of the current shambles - the franchise worked perfectly okay under FCC. The problem with hiving off the Kings Lynn services is the 387s would transfer, which would make it hard for them to be used in other services if and when necessary - again a needles layer of inflexibility.

 

[adrock1976]

Yep! Absolutely agree with you. All aboard the Grant Shapps train for getting political careers back on track.

Regarding Grant Shapps, is he the same person under the name of the former Stoke-on-Trent Central MP Tristram Hunt but with a different coloured tie?

They both look remarkably alike to each other, embrace the same type of politics (Tristram Hunt was part of New Labour), and I have never ever seen them both at the same time.

 

[Abpj17]

Regarding Grant Shapps, is he the same person under the name of the former Stoke-on-Trent Central MP Tristram Hunt but with a different coloured tie?

They both look remarkably alike to each other, embrace the same type of politics (Tristram Hunt was part of New Labour), and I have never ever seen them both at the same time.

No. But Shapps did have a second identity as Michael Green (and possibly a third) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...m-plot-overthrow-two-names-jobs-a7986761.html

 

[OwenB]

No. But Shapps did have a second identity as Michael Green (and possibly a third) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...m-plot-overthrow-two-names-jobs-a7986761.html

Yup, our MP is a man of many aliases (allegedly).