Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[ComUtoR]

From what I’ve been told you guys are lucky to get a diagram at all, rather than a bit of paper saying “X - Y, all stops, don’t worry about timings”.

I had to call our control and they categorically stated that I was to run all stations.. even the ones with prohibitions. Same last weekend where Drivers were booked to call at a prohibited station. When your own control don't have clue and give you unsafe instructions you really have to worry.

 

[Bromley boy]

I had to call our control and they categorically stated that I was to run all stations.. even the ones with prohibitions. Same last weekend where Drivers were booked to call at a prohibited station. When your own control don't have clue and give you unsafe instructions you really have to worry.

Absolutely shocking.

I’d have been tempted to refuse to drive it at all.

If you’d stopped at a disallowed station (as instructed by your own TOC!) and trapped/dragged someone...

What a can of worms.

 

[mmh]

I'm still not sure why the management and unions

That must be close to a dozen times you've mentioned "unions" now, despite people including drivers explaining there's no industrial dispute causing this disruption.

 

[sefton]

With no Driver in attendance. Who operates the PA ? We are DOO and none of our platform staff are allowed to use the onboard PA. One of the issues I posted was exactly that. You will have a train full of passengers who are not in the best position to hear announcements.

Perhaps you could ask the station staff at Kings Cross who were working on Friday 1st June as they would have the answers.

- A 387 - exactly the same type of train.

- 1636 departure - exactly the same.

- Driver delayed by 25 minutes - exactly the same.

However all the customers were sat on the train as the doors had been opened when it arrived on the platform, with someone using the onboard PA to keep customers informed about what was going on and when the driver would be arriving.

It is the inconsistency that is irritating with customers being treated as inconveniences and 'not my job mate' attitudes being displayed

 

[Antman]

Tomorrow it seems SE are running 465s Orpington to Victoria (all stations) via the Catford loop and Thameslink 700s are running Sevenoaks to Victoria (all stations except Brixton) via the Chatham main. What's all that about?

Apparently it's related to engineering work? Presumably trains are not serving Brixton due to capacity unless there is work going on there?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It has been novel to see the on board train loading indicators red every day (assuming one can get on board in the first place).

 

[The Box Photter]

1. Previously the large traincrew depot at Bedford covered a lot of Sutton loop work.
The idea of the future - that traincrew depots are opened at the ends of service groups and drive only those routes, mean that new traincrew depots at Luton and St Albans opened in May.
Bedford reduced in size and Luton and St Albans were filled with either volunteers or the less senior drivers forced to move. St Albans, being the furthest away from Bedford, has fewer volunteers than Luton, and more 'less senior'. Because of previous delays in training and a backlog of trainees, St Albans it seems, has a roster populated by a fair number of trainees (who aren't yet qualified or productive).
Since it opened in May, St Albans is the exclusive depot for Sutton loop duties.

The duties can be cross-covered by other depots by spare or rest day work drivers, but it evidently isn't enough at present.

Half of Luton depot should be doing Rainham duties but many aren't trained on the route yet.
Some Bedford drivers haven't been trained on new London Bridge layout, which leads us to....

2. Route knowledge is a problem in that not many Brighton drivers know the new layout at London Bridge High Level platforms and their approaches. The same goes for Horsham drivers, but you can add the Core as well that most don't sign, although some (together with some Brighton drivers) were sent to quickly learn St Pancras to Finsbury Park (and Kings Cross). They all need route conducting for the bits they don't know with associated knock on delays if trains get cancelled or delayed. This has been evident at Finsbury Park.

3. The duties won't be the same each day for an individual driver. For a start the duties are different lengths (between 6 hours and 9 hours 54 minutes), so are placed in a rota called a 'link' and are worked in rotation by drivers, with different rest days each week. This makes an 'average week' of 35 hours, with some being less and some being more.


Similarly to the Sutton loop mentioned above - on the GN, some Cambridge to Kings Cross stopping services are now run by Welwyn Garden City traincrew depot, which isn't actually in existence yet, but are separate rotas (links) at Kings Cross and Hitchin until the new depot buildings are constructed. There's the same problem here in that any vacancies or trainees will be placed in these links as the drivers with the most seniority will remain at Kings Cross or Hitchin. Also, whereas all of Cambridge and Peterborough are trained on 700s, there are many at Kings Cross both in the 'remaining at Kings Cross link' and in 'Welwyn link', and also the Welwyn link at Hitchin who require traction training on them.


One thing no one has mentioned yet, is that any train booked to go via the Core is now dealt with by Thameslink SDC (Service Delivery Centre) at Three Bridges, with the trains booked to go to Kings Cross (that's booked not diverted) and Moorgate still being dealt with by Great Northern SDC at Kings Cross, and the extra phone calls, liaising, and added complications of left hand and right hand having to know what each are doing.

It remains to be seen whether phase two of transferring all the remaining GN services to come under Thameslink SDC, with the closure of Kings Cross SDC in the coming weeks, will make things better or worse.

It's huge. The list of things to overcome is of biblical proportions, and quite honestly if I could see it coming with nearly three weeks to go (see here, the last line in particular) I don't know why Chris Grayling and Charles Horton couldn't.

If this is accurate, its shocking. I can't comprehend how senior management at GTR and DfT could have been:

a) unaware of the situation
b) stupid enough to think that the new timetables could be implemented under these circumstances

It seems likely that there will be no short-term resolution whilst the operators continue to attempt to implement the new timetable. They're likely to have as much success as in attempting to push wet spaghetti up a cat's arse. It would be a fantastic acheivement, but the chances of success are slim.

The only solution (if they're serious about delivering a service to passengers/customers) is to revert immediately to the pre-May timetable and throw RailPlan 2020 in the bin. Nobody wanted it anyway.

 

[Class465fan]

Yesterday was the worst day to travel with shameslink for me. Most thameslink services to abbey wood from gravesend were cancelled so i then decided to get a SE train to Dartford to see if they were any SE trains going to abbey wood but nothing. So then i saw the next thameslink train to abbey wood but guess what, cancelled.

So then i decided to rely on the buses and bloody hell what a nightmare that was. So stressed right now. Thanks a lot for your useless service shameslink.

 

[Robert Symonds]

What’s with the random Cannon st to Ramsgate service on the Greenwich line today?

 

[Class465fan]

Must be a special summer service?

 

[otomous]

As I see it, all the problems are down to not enough drivers being type/ route trained. Which leads me to what may seem a stupid question... but why do train drivers need to have so much training? As a bus driver, if a new vehicle type comes into my depot, then I will, IF I am lucky, be given a small manual showing where all the controls are... if I'm REALLY lucky I might be given a 15 min "spin" to find out how the new type handles. As to route changes... well once or twice along the line oos followed if lucky with a run in service with a pilot will be deemed sufficient... in fact if I were to ask for much more training than that I would probably be deemed as incompetent as a driver and would be "asked to leave".

Now.. without wishing to open old arguments... there isn't much difference between propelling a train down a "track" stopping at stops and signals or doing the same with a bus... yes a road can be considered the "track" of a bus... and a train driver doesn't have to worry about complete idiots sharing their track...

Is there a LEGAL requirement for train drivers to have so much training? or is it a product of years of TOC's caving into unreasonable union demands?

You ask a reasonable question from a layman’s point of view but I think your tone is what upset people, and I agree some of their responses were unnecessarily rude, but your post immediately put them on the defensive. It evoked the public, tabloid, and of late it seems, political misunderstanding of the driving role.

In essence a train cannot be stopped as quickly as a bus, and therefore a train driver needs to be able to control it with knowledge as to what is ahead that he cannot see yet. This is why route knowledge is key and why it cannot be rushed through. In this case you are looking at a lot of drivers signing a few hundred miles of new route, with differing signal types, speeds, safety systems etc. Who need to be briefed, actually find trains to learn on, be assessed as competent etc, all of which takes personnel who are already stretched.

Now I don’t know about buses, but I do know that the differences between the class 319, Electrostars and 700s is such that every driver would have needed the full traction course. I sign three classes of unit and there is no way one course for the first plus a manual for the other two would have been able to suffice. However I sign three variants of Electrostar and two of Turbostar, and here a brief of the differences from the base knowledge was fine. That is not the case with 700s. So it's a case of different approaches for different situations. Some take longer than others.

Suffice to say, moving a vehicle from A to B is about all that buses have in common with trains.

There are agreed route competence standards within the firm’s own professional driving policy, not legal but rather like breaking Hidden and could come into play in a court case. The union will be involved in that they may raise issues of insufficient work over a route, but this is not unreasonable, merely pragmatic. If a driver falls out of competence the route learning may have to be undertaken again and this is time that a driver cannot be driving his rostered train. I must say the phrase “caving into unreasonable union demands” was perhaps what provoked some of those responding. As a bus driver you have surely experienced an operator pushing against the confines of what they can get away with all the time, the cost of which could be your and your passenger’s well being, one way or another. The union is is essence a balancing act. At the same individual drivers are not obliged to follow union advice, and some don’t, which ultimately could be a problem if they have an incident.

 

[Robert Symonds]

Must be a special summer service?

I didn’t think they still did those.I remember there being one many years ago which I used to catch to go to Dreamland Margate.

 

[otomous]

some things about this meltdown just do not make sense...

1. why is route knowledge such an issue for the old Thameslink routes? ie Bedford- Brighton and Luton- Sutton these have been running now for over 20 years... so any driver claiming no route knowledge is surely either a) a new starter or b) taking advantage of a bad situation and is lying through their back teeth..

2. Why are there so many problems with trains getting stuck at Finsbury Park with no drivers... if that is the scheduled driver change point then surely SOMEONE SOMEWHERE has the duty/ rota plan... and will know in advance that the service will have to terminate earlier than it's destination and can take evasive action..

3. why hasn't Thameslink re-written the duties and rotas so that they can operate the same journeys daily?

Hmm. I fear statements like, "so any driver claiming no route knowledge is surely...taking advantage of a bad situation and is lying through their back teeth," isn't going to win friends or influence people either.

But anyway, the first point. The new rosters will have been constructed under the assumption that all drivers signed the necessary routes. This means that a new driver or a former GN or Southern driver may been booked to drive an old route, but of course they don't yet possess that knowledge. Conversely an existing TL driver may have been booked to drive a NEW TL route for which he doesn't yet have the knowledge. So now the drivers and the routes are not matched up properly. To answer the third point, rewriting the rosters is a hefty task and it may be that if personnel end up doing this they may not be able to operate anything that needs doing TODAY. It's a mess.

The second point. Yes, and I've been asking myself for a decade in the rail industry why these situations come apart. And the only answer I can come up with is that it is incredibly labour driven rather than technology driven, and there isn't enough labour (or skilled labour) to do much other than firefight during a crisis. It's another mess and I'm frequently at the receiving end of it.

 

[otomous]

From a passenger point of view it’s definitely better to let people on where possible. It’s a pain in the arse being kept on the platform, especially at 0500 on a winter morning at KX!

Agreed. And I do open the doors on trains that are not my own if I KNOW there is a driver and that an attachment is not about to be carried out on it, but if there is ambiguity, I'm just creating a "situation" so keep out of it.

 

[otomous]

If they didn't think it would run, then they ought to have told the hundreds of customers waiting for the train so they could have got on the 1706 which was waiting...with the doors open.

So no, not damned if they do or damned if they don't, just the usual sort of rubbish that their customers have to put up with.

Just the same as the shocking service this evening with the secret 1616 which left from KGX empty because nobody could be bothered to put it on the departure boards and the two staff who I asked if it was the Peterborough train (which all the websites showed it was) couldn't be bothered to check.

What if they just DON'T KNOW either way - as is often the case. Front line staff are usually the last to know anything. You send crowds of people to another train only to find it's not now running, you just create another problem. The way the industry does things is of constant irritation to the staff as well as the punters. Half the time you can't even get through to control to confirm something. Many staff try to do their best but they are absolutely ground down by years of this.

 

[otomous]

It’s crap because it means standing around for ages, potentially in cold conditions, and unable to do anything like work. I know operationally it can be small pain at times letting people on early, but it’s one of those little things the railway can do that really does make life easier for passengers. Using a real-life example, it’s not pleasant having just done seven night shifts and then being stuck standing on a cold platform for 45 minutes just because someone hasn’t bothered to come and open up the unit.

It isn't about "not being bothered". I've booked on plenty of times to find my train sitting there locked up, either because it's been berthed overnight or it's come in empty and the driver doesn't know what's happening with it so he doesn't release the doors; or it's waiting an attachment/detachment etc and if you let people on you risk a delay while you get them into the correct portion of the train. 45 minutes before the driver could be still en route to work or driving another train or be on his break!

 

[otomous]

You can log onto certain things on 387s (and at least some of the other Electrostars before them) without being a driver, indeed various logins exist with different levels of permission. I won't reveal more on a public forum. Opening the doors is something which is, however, exclusively a driver's responsibility when a 387 is in passenger service, unless there's a fault being diagnosed by fitters.

As for 700s, I'm aware that platform staff can close doors, but I am not sure if there are any who might be permitted to release/open them. I've certainly never seen such a briefing. I believe the door release buttons within the saloon might technically work with the correct technique used.

But those logons are unlikely to be available to platform staff I'm guessing?

 

[otomous]

They are only angry because they are being treat like crap !!

I admit its not station staffs fault. But...
If a member of staff said to me ' sorry this service is cancelled because we havent got driver because the company started training them to late for the timetable and there is a service in 10 mins time leaving fom platform...' i would be a lot more respectful than if he said ' you have to get off as this service is cancelled and i don't know when the next service will be'.

In life i treat people how i like to be treated. BUT im no mugg. I had a boss who thought he could treat me like crap, he soon found out i could speak to him in the same manner and tone as he spoke.

They haven't got time to say that to every person! And they are being honest. They don't know when the next service is. D'you want them to lie or make one up? Imagine doing this all day and never getting any backup from their employer? The situation is a mess and the passengers are being treated worse than cattle. None of us deny that and we are all appalled at what is happening. But there is only so much we can do.

 

[otomous]

No one is “forcing” anyone to sit on an unlit and unheated train so that’s overly emotive for a start, and it does seem like issues are being introduced which don’t exist. Certainly on a 365 the train will have full lighting and heating if not keyed on - if this isn’t the case on a 387 then that’s a design issue. There are plenty of scenarios when passengers will be on board an unlit train - the power going off is one such scenario for a start.

I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this one, however my view is the objective should be to get passengers on the train as far as possible. It’s much easier to have information broadcast through the train p/a, with more chance that people will actually hear it, and makes for a far more comfortable experience for the passenger. Yes occasionally it may mean a little extra work for staff, but hardly the end of the world. Being seen to make an effort to keep passengers happy is more likely to encourage passengers to be more understanding when things go wrong.

“Is this train running?”
“Don’t know yet”
“Can we wait inside?”
“Yes you’re welcome I’ll open it up so you can wait in the warm, but please be aware there may be an issue later”
“Ok thanks”

as opposed to
“No wait on the platform it’s easier for us”

No prizes which of the two is more likely to endear passengers to staff.

Now try saying that to hundreds of people. Believe me I've tried. It doesn't work.

 

[JamesT]

But anyway, the first point. The new rosters will have been constructed under the assumption that all drivers signed the necessary routes. This means that a new driver or a former GN or Southern driver may been booked to drive an old route, but of course they don't yet possess that knowledge. Conversely an existing TL driver may have been booked to drive a NEW TL route for which he doesn't yet have the knowledge. So now the drivers and the routes are not matched up properly. To answer the third point, rewriting the rosters is a hefty task and it may be that if personnel end up doing this they may not be able to operate anything that needs doing TODAY. It's a mess.

The second point. Yes, and I've been asking myself for a decade in the rail industry why these situations come apart. And the only answer I can come up with is that it is incredibly labour driven rather than technology driven, and there isn't enough labour (or skilled labour) to do much other than firefight during a crisis. It's another mess and I'm frequently at the receiving end of it.

How centralised is the recording of route knowledge? This feels like something that should be an almost trivial programming exercise.
You take a list of the drivers with which traction and which routes they sign, then match it against your proposed timetable with the routes and traction required. Add in constraints for length of shift and breaks and you’re sorted. The computer should easily be able to flag up if you try and assign a driver who doesn’t have necessary knowledge to a diagram.
But from the sounds of it the people writing the timetables don’t have this data if they’re making assumptions about the drivers necessary to run it.

 

[otomous]

I reckon someone is trying to soften up the public to demand driverless trains.

The public don't need softening up. Let's not open this can of worms again. If we were building the railway from scratch it would likely be driverless. If we were to build a brand new line end to end, I'd expect it to be driverless - like the DLR. Retro fitting the Victorian network is another matter entirely in terms of cost which the public and the DfT probably aren't willing to pay for yet. And frankly, we can't even complete electrification of our trunk routes or implement a new timetable, so good luck with that.

 

[otomous]

How centralised is the recording of route knowledge? This feels like something that should be an almost trivial programming exercise.
You take a list of the drivers with which traction and which routes they sign, then match it against your proposed timetable with the routes and traction required. Add in constraints for length of shift and breaks and you’re sorted. The computer should easily be able to flag up if you try and assign a driver who doesn’t have necessary knowledge to a diagram.
But from the sounds of it the people writing the timetables don’t have this data if they’re making assumptions about the drivers necessary to run it.

Every driver will have a "route card" - ie not literally a card anymore. But tech wise we still seem to be relying on various computer systems of varying ages and types that aren't necessarily integrated. And human intervention can override them. I've been asked to drive routes I don't sign and had to point it out. I fear one of the consequences of splitting BR into so many different companies and making many of them short term in outlook due to the franchise system is a lack of long term industry wide development of such systems. Why spend a fortune on a new system that will have all the usual teething troubles during implementation when you know you only have 5-7 years to reap the benefit when you can bumble through without it?

 

[London Trains]

Apparently it's related to engineering work? Presumably trains are not serving Brixton due to capacity unless there is work going on there?

It seems nothing is running through the core except Bedford - Brighton and Bedford - Blackfriars so I assume engineering works are happening via Elephant and Castle.

 

[GoatSarah]

The only solution (if they're serious about delivering a service to passengers/customers) is to revert immediately to the pre-May timetable and throw RailPlan 2020 in the bin. Nobody wanted it anyway.

Speak for yourself. I’d find a service from Cambridge through the TL core immensely useful.

 

[Ianno87]

Speak for yourself. I’d find a service from Cambridge through the TL core immensely useful.

Ditto. Cambridge to Blackfriars/London Bridge directly is fantastic for me.

 

[tsd123]

Ditto. Cambridge to Blackfriars/London Bridge directly is fantastic for me.

Speak for yourself. I’d find a service from Cambridge through the TL core immensely useful.

I also find the East Grinstead service through the core fantastic - going straight to STP instead of via the Victoria or Northern lines is brilliant.

 

[JonathanH]

It seems nothing is running through the core except Bedford - Brighton and Bedford - Blackfriars so I assume engineering works are happening via Elephant and Castle.

Yes - see

http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tlk_core

Thameslink also doing London Bridge to Horsham, London Victoria to Sevenoaks, Dartford to Rainham, Kings Cross to Peterborough and Kings Cross to Cambridge but nothing on the Sutton loop.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ditto. Cambridge to Blackfriars/London Bridge directly is fantastic for me.

I would love to agree. But as yet have not managed to use it. Always cancelled. In fact now I can’t even travel to Kings Cross for significant parts of the day and need to go via Moorgate which is significantly slower for the core.

 

[Steve Harris]

They haven't got time to say that to every person! And they are being honest. They don't know when the next service is. D'you want them to lie or make one up? Imagine doing this all day and never getting any backup from their employer? The situation is a mess and the passengers are being treated worse than cattle. None of us deny that and we are all appalled at what is happening. But there is only so much we can do.

I accept there is only so much you can do and no i don't want to be lied to. BUT if a member of staff comes over as genuine i will give him more respect than someone who treats me as a moroon.

I could give you 2 examples but as we are going off topic, i won't.

The only thing i will say is that i have been around railways nearly 50 years now so i know a bit more than the average punter but not enough to drive a 700, lol.

As for getting no back up from your employer, thats where the union should come in tbh.

 

[bramling]

I also find the East Grinstead service through the core fantastic - going straight to STP instead of via the Victoria or Northern lines is brilliant.

That’s all fine, however others don’t need the exciting new destinations and value a reliable and dependable service, which Thameslink simply doesn’t offer.

So run a 50/50 core/non-core service to all destinations and everyone is happy.