Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Steve Harris]

It honestly makes me laugh when some people use health and safety arguments.

In days of olde there was such a thing as a waiting room which was lit and kept warm and dry.

But you would be hard pressed to find one in the modern era. Nowerdays its wait on the cold wet platform until the train is 'opened' up and get pushed and shoved about by the 'I'm more important than/ i deserve a seat more than you passenger as you get on the train.

That really is looking after the 'Health and Safety ' of your passengers !!

Or as i see it, Your more frightened of getting your arse sued!

 

[tsr]

More likely because the environmental systems (including SDO) are part of the computer logon on modern stock and only a driver can log on.

You can log onto certain things on 387s (and at least some of the other Electrostars before them) without being a driver, indeed various logins exist with different levels of permission. I won't reveal more on a public forum. Opening the doors is something which is, however, exclusively a driver's responsibility when a 387 is in passenger service, unless there's a fault being diagnosed by fitters.

As for 700s, I'm aware that platform staff can close doors, but I am not sure if there are any who might be permitted to release/open them. I've certainly never seen such a briefing. I believe the door release buttons within the saloon might technically work with the correct technique used.

 

[causton]

It honestly makes me laugh when some people use health and safety arguments.

In days of olde there was such a thing as a waiting room which was lit and kept warm and dry.

But you would be hard pressed to find one in the modern era. Nowerdays its wait on the cold wet platform until the train is 'opened' up and get pushed and shoved about by the 'I'm more important than/ i deserve a seat more than you passenger as you get on the train.

That really is looking after the 'Health and Safety ' of your passengers !!

Or as i see it, Your more frightened of getting your arse sued!

What is your solution then, bearing in mind the posts above raise a variety of issues?

 

[Steve Harris]

And it will have no air con and may have emergency lighting at most. And if it needs to be shut down, platform staff now have to stop what they're doing and try to get a train load of angry passengers off and back onto the concourse.

Did I mention that they'll be angry?! And take up staff time. As a 700 is shut down in one hit, it could take ages if some people refuse to get off. Given recent protests with people refusing to budge, I fully support NOT releasing the doors until it is clear the train can run.

They are only angry because they are being treat like crap !!

I admit its not station staffs fault. But...
If a member of staff said to me ' sorry this service is cancelled because we havent got driver because the company started training them to late for the timetable and there is a service in 10 mins time leaving fom platform...' i would be a lot more respectful than if he said ' you have to get off as this service is cancelled and i don't know when the next service will be'.

In life i treat people how i like to be treated. BUT im no mugg. I had a boss who thought he could treat me like crap, he soon found out i could speak to him in the same manner and tone as he spoke.

 

[Steve Harris]

What is your solution then, bearing in mind the posts above raise a variety of issues?

There is a plethora of health and safety consultants out there who probably could tell you. But I'm not one of them !
Yes, shoot me down in flames, as if i was that brainy I'd be on a 8 figure salary and probably wouldn't have the time to post on here, lol

By any chance, do you have the answer either ??

 

[bramling]

Who is suggesting passengers are freight ?



The other problem here is that the TOC is unwilling to let passengers sit in the dark on an unlit unit. What if someone had an accident ? The TOC would be liable. Passenegers would raise merry hell if they were forced to sit on an unlit, unheated train.

No one is “forcing” anyone to sit on an unlit and unheated train so that’s overly emotive for a start, and it does seem like issues are being introduced which don’t exist. Certainly on a 365 the train will have full lighting and heating if not keyed on - if this isn’t the case on a 387 then that’s a design issue. There are plenty of scenarios when passengers will be on board an unlit train - the power going off is one such scenario for a start.

I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this one, however my view is the objective should be to get passengers on the train as far as possible. It’s much easier to have information broadcast through the train p/a, with more chance that people will actually hear it, and makes for a far more comfortable experience for the passenger. Yes occasionally it may mean a little extra work for staff, but hardly the end of the world. Being seen to make an effort to keep passengers happy is more likely to encourage passengers to be more understanding when things go wrong.

“Is this train running?”
“Don’t know yet”
“Can we wait inside?”
“Yes you’re welcome I’ll open it up so you can wait in the warm, but please be aware there may be an issue later”
“Ok thanks”

as opposed to
“No wait on the platform it’s easier for us”

No prizes which of the two is more likely to endear passengers to staff.

 

[Steve Harris]

No one is “forcing” anyone to sit on an unlit and unheated train so that’s overly emotive for a start, and it does seem like issues are being introduced which don’t exist. Certainly on a 365 the train will have full lighting and heating if not keyed on - if this isn’t the case on a 387 then that’s a design issue. There are plenty of scenarios when passengers will be on board an unlit train - the power going off is one such scenario for a start.

I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this one, however my view is the objective should be to get passengers on the train as far as possible. It’s much easier to have information broadcast through the train p/a, with more chance that people will actually hear it, and makes for a far more comfortable experience for the passenger. Yes occasionally it may mean a little extra work for staff, but hardly the end of the world. Being seen to make an effort to keep passengers happy is more likely to encourage passengers to be more understanding when things go wrong.

“Is this train running?”
“Don’t know yet”
“Can we wait inside?”
“Yes you’re welcome I’ll open it up so you can wait in the warm, but please be aware there may be an issue later”
“Ok thanks”

as opposed to
“No wait on the platform it’s easier for us”

No prizes which of the two is more likely to endear passengers to staff.

You have done a better job than me at trying to put across exactly the same point of view.

 

[MCSHF007]

You have done a better job than me at trying to put across exactly the same point of view.

The other advantage to the passenger/customer is that those who were 'there first' have first choice of seats/standing space rather than risk being jostled out of the way by more 'positive' (aggressive?) latecomers.

 

[c52]

I reckon someone is trying to soften up the public to demand driverless trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

It’s much easier to have information broadcast through the train p/a, with more chance that people will actually hear it

With no Driver in attendance. Who operates the PA ? We are DOO and none of our platform staff are allowed to use the onboard PA. One of the issues I posted was exactly that. You will have a train full of passengers who are not in the best position to hear announcements.

and makes for a far more comfortable experience for the passenger. Yes occasionally it may mean a little extra work for staff, but hardly the end of the world.

In my personal experience. Having to turf people out of the train causes more issues than resolves.

“Is this train running?”
“Don’t know yet”
“Can we wait inside?”
“Yes you’re welcome I’ll open it up so you can wait in the warm, but please be aware there may be an issue later”
“Ok thanks”

"can you open the train up?"
"we'd love to but don't know how"

We really are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

[bramling]

With no Driver in attendance. Who operates the PA ? We are DOO and none of our platform staff are allowed to use the onboard PA. One of the issues I posted was exactly that. You will have a train full of passengers who are not in the best position to hear announcements.



In my personal experience. Having to turf people out of the train causes more issues than resolves.



"can you open the train up?"
"we'd love to but don't know how"

We really are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Okay, I understand the points being made, and it sounds like things may be different south of the river. At King’s Cross, platform staff have been opening up/closing up trains for many years- certainly with everything up until the 387s. This has included making announcements when no driver has been present. If it can’t be done with certain types of train then this is poor design, otherwise it’s lack of staff training.

It’s worked happily at King’s Cross for many years, along with the unattended train having full heating and lighting, so it can’t be hard to see why one might find t hard to believe that it should suddenly be such a major issue.

As for damned if do and damned if don’t, this may apply with some passengers, however please be assured many passengers will be extremely grateful if the effort is made to leave the train open.

 

[bramling]

The other advantage to the passenger/customer is that those who were 'there first' have first choice of seats/standing space rather than risk being jostled out of the way by more 'positive' (aggressive?) latecomers.

Absolutely, and another issue is passengers will never quite be sure if another unit is going to be coming in on top, or if the train is to be split.

And it’s not unheard of for an outside door cock to be operated, which if not reset will likely lead to a delay on departure when a door remains open. I’ve seen this happen on a few occasions.

 

[Bromley boy]

Okay, I understand the points being made, and it sounds like things may be different south of the river. At King’s Cross, platform staff have been opening up/closing up trains for many years- certainly with everything up until the 387s. This has included making announcements when no driver has been present. If it can’t be done with certain types of train then this is poor design, otherwise it’s lack of staff training.

Out of interest, how do the platform staff open trains? I think the only way of doing it, other than keying into a cab and putting up a release (a bad idea for a non driver to do), would be putting a T key into an external egress switch?

How do they make announcements? Unless they’re keying into a guards’ panel are they accessing cabs?

I fully appreciate the frustration but there are good operational reasons why trains are not opened up by platform staff. Generally it isn’t a problem - obviously with the current TL woes it is magnified.

It isn’t done at all South of the river (at least on my patch). Perhaps a cultural difference, as you say.

 

[jon0844]

They can open a 365 and do PA announcements, but I've been told they aren't able to do the same on a 387. Don't know about the 700s. And the power saving is there to, well, save power. Not a train defect and probably a requirement these days.

We can of course debate whether it's really necessary but perhaps in another thread.

 

[bramling]

Out of interest, how do the platform staff open trains? I think the only way of doing it, other than keying into a cab and putting up a release (a bad idea for a non driver to do), would be putting a T key into an external egress switch?

How do they make announcements? Unless they’re keying into a guards’ panel are they accessing cabs?

I fully appreciate the frustration but there are good operational reasons why trains are not opened up by platform staff. Generally it isn’t a problem - obviously with the current TL woes it is magnified.

It isn’t done at all South of the river (at least on my patch). Perhaps a cultural difference, as you say.

I’m pretty sure it’s done by accessing cabs and keying on. It may help that many of the staff at King’s Cross are quite “old school”, and been around for a while, but as far as I know it’s official policy.

Certainly I’ve seen a few drivers up in arms when they’ve turned up to take out a train and found it *hadn’t* been opened up.

May be a cultural thing as you say, but it’s frustrating to be used to King’s Cross where things have generally worked very well and smoothly for many years, and then hearing all manner of reasons why it somehow shouldn’t or can’t be done!

 

[bramling]

They can open a 365 and do PA announcements, but I've been told they aren't able to do the same on a 387. Don't know about the 700s. And the power saving is there to, well, save power. Not a train defect and probably a requirement these days.

Ah, so another reason why the new trains are inferior to the 365s!

The 387s seem to have some strange features, I’ve heard it said the doors can’t be released from the inner end after two units have been separated without it causing issues.

 

[tsr]

Out of interest, how do the platform staff open trains? I think the only way of doing it, other than keying into a cab and putting up a release (a bad idea for a non driver to do), would be putting a T key into an external egress switch?

How do they make announcements? Unless they’re keying into a guards’ panel are they accessing cabs?

I fully appreciate the frustration but there are good operational reasons why trains are not opened up by platform staff. Generally it isn’t a problem - obviously with the current TL woes it is magnified.

It isn’t done at all South of the river (at least on my patch). Perhaps a cultural difference, as you say.

South of the River, Southern station staff don't open up trains, but a lot of them are briefed on how to make announcements (for which you can disregard anything to do with putting a driver's key on, if you do it within the cabs of the applicable stock).

Opening doors is very much the preserve of train crew, though.

The 387s seem to have some strange features, I’ve heard it said the doors can’t be released from the inner end after two units have been separated without it causing issues.

Electrostars tend to throw wobblies if you open the doors from intermediate cabs once the trains have been attached (there are good reasons for this).

If you couldn't do it from an inner end after detachment, you'd never be able to release the doors unless both portions were only ever driven in opposite directions after said detachment. This would be slightly inconvenient...

 

[jon0844]

Ah, so another reason why the new trains are inferior to the 365s!

The 387s seem to have some strange features, I’ve heard it said the doors can’t be released from the inner end after two units have been separated without it causing issues.

The 387s are certainly quite 'special' in many ways.

 

[Bromley boy]

I’m pretty sure it’s done by accessing cabs and keying on. It may help that many of the staff at King’s Cross are quite “old school”, and been around for a while, but as far as I know it’s official policy.

Wow - I’m staggered by that. If they are issues with drivers’ keys and allowed access to cabs they could end up putting up a wrong side release (big safety of the line can of worms) or even releasing the doors and rolling the train if they somehow released the brakes (or even moving the train under power, although this would need to be a pretty deliberate act).

Perhaps they are doing it from guards’ panels (even this seems a little dubious).

Certainly I’ve seen a few drivers up in arms when they’ve turned up to take out a train and found it *hadn’t* been opened up.

Could it be that the previous driver should have opened it? If I go into a platform ECS I’ll generally leave the doors closed unless I know the train is going into passenger service/I’m specifically asked to).

For pathing reasons many ECS moves are diagrammed into platforms and then moved from platforms to sidings.

 

[whoosh]

some things about this meltdown just do not make sense...

1. why is route knowledge such an issue for the old Thameslink routes? ie Bedford- Brighton and Luton- Sutton these have been running now for over 20 years... so any driver claiming no route knowledge is surely either a) a new starter or b) taking advantage of a bad situation and is lying through their back teeth..

2. Why are there so many problems with trains getting stuck at Finsbury Park with no drivers... if that is the scheduled driver change point then surely SOMEONE SOMEWHERE has the duty/ rota plan... and will know in advance that the service will have to terminate earlier than it's destination and can take evasive action..

3. why hasn't Thameslink re-written the duties and rotas so that they can operate the same journeys daily?

1. Previously the large traincrew depot at Bedford covered a lot of Sutton loop work.
The idea of the future - that traincrew depots are opened at the ends of service groups and drive only those routes, mean that new traincrew depots at Luton and St Albans opened in May.
Bedford reduced in size and Luton and St Albans were filled with either volunteers or the less senior drivers forced to move. St Albans, being the furthest away from Bedford, has fewer volunteers than Luton, and more 'less senior'. Because of previous delays in training and a backlog of trainees, St Albans it seems, has a roster populated by a fair number of trainees (who aren't yet qualified or productive).
Since it opened in May, St Albans is the exclusive depot for Sutton loop duties.

The duties can be cross-covered by other depots by spare or rest day work drivers, but it evidently isn't enough at present.

Half of Luton depot should be doing Rainham duties but many aren't trained on the route yet.
Some Bedford drivers haven't been trained on new London Bridge layout, which leads us to....

2. Route knowledge is a problem in that not many Brighton drivers know the new layout at London Bridge High Level platforms and their approaches. The same goes for Horsham drivers, but you can add the Core as well that most don't sign, although some (together with some Brighton drivers) were sent to quickly learn St Pancras to Finsbury Park (and Kings Cross). They all need route conducting for the bits they don't know with associated knock on delays if trains get cancelled or delayed. This has been evident at Finsbury Park.

3. The duties won't be the same each day for an individual driver. For a start the duties are different lengths (between 6 hours and 9 hours 54 minutes), so are placed in a rota called a 'link' and are worked in rotation by drivers, with different rest days each week. This makes an 'average week' of 35 hours, with some being less and some being more.


Similarly to the Sutton loop mentioned above - on the GN, some Cambridge to Kings Cross stopping services are now run by Welwyn Garden City traincrew depot, which isn't actually in existence yet, but are separate rotas (links) at Kings Cross and Hitchin until the new depot buildings are constructed. There's the same problem here in that any vacancies or trainees will be placed in these links as the drivers with the most seniority will remain at Kings Cross or Hitchin. Also, whereas all of Cambridge and Peterborough are trained on 700s, there are many at Kings Cross both in the 'remaining at Kings Cross link' and in 'Welwyn link', and also the Welwyn link at Hitchin who require traction training on them.


One thing no one has mentioned yet, is that any train booked to go via the Core is now dealt with by Thameslink SDC (Service Delivery Centre) at Three Bridges, with the trains booked to go to Kings Cross (that's booked not diverted) and Moorgate still being dealt with by Great Northern SDC at Kings Cross, and the extra phone calls, liaising, and added complications of left hand and right hand having to know what each are doing.

It remains to be seen whether phase two of transferring all the remaining GN services to come under Thameslink SDC, with the closure of Kings Cross SDC in the coming weeks, will make things better or worse.

It's huge. The list of things to overcome is of biblical proportions, and quite honestly if I could see it coming with nearly three weeks to go (see here, the last line in particular) I don't know why Chris Grayling and Charles Horton couldn't.

 

[bramling]

Wow - I’m staggered by that. If they are issues with drivers’ keys and allowed access to cabs they could end up putting up a wrong side release (big safety of the line can of worms) or even releasing the doors and rolling the train if they somehow released the brakes (or even moving the train under power, although this would need to be a pretty deliberate act).

Perhaps they are doing it from guards’ panels (even this seems a little dubious).



Could it be that the previous driver should have opened it? If I go into a platform ECS I’ll generally leave the doors closed unless I know the train is going into passenger service/I’m specifically asked to).

For pathing reasons many ECS moves are diagrammed into platforms and then moved from platforms to sidings.

Does a 365 have guards panels? I can understand a potential can of worms, however if the member of staff has been appropriately trained and is licensed then I don’t see what the major issue is. Likewiae they’re fully familiar with the location - we’re not talking about transient agency staff here.

In the example I was thinking of, AFAICR it was a 365 which had come in ECS from somewhere and was booked to sit for about an hour. The outgoing driver was furious at being confronted with a platform full of people and thus having to take the time and effort to open up the rear cab. Happens quite a bit in the early morning too, especially where a driver comes off one train late and quickly crosses over to take a different train north - night duty last trip, so wants to be away on time no doubt!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

1. Previously the large traincrew depot at Bedford covered a lot of Sutton loop work.
The idea of the future - that traincrew depots are opened at the ends of service groups and drive only those routes, mean that new traincrew depots at Luton and St Albans opened in May.
Bedford reduced in size and Luton and St Albans were filled with either volunteers or the less senior drivers forced to move. St Albans, being the furthest away from Bedford, has fewer volunteers than Luton, and more 'less senior'. Because of previous delays in training and a backlog of trainees, St Albans it seems, has a roster populated by a fair number of trainees (who aren't yet qualified or productive).
Since it opened in May, St Albans is the exclusive depot for Sutton loop duties.

The duties can be cross-covered by other depots by spare or rest day work drivers, but it evidently isn't enough at present.

Half of Luton depot should be doing Rainham duties but many aren't trained on the route yet.
Some Bedford drivers haven't been trained on new London Bridge layout, which leads us to....

2. Route knowledge is a problem in that not many Brighton drivers know the new layout at London Bridge High Level platforms and their approaches. The same goes for Horsham drivers, but you can add the Core as well that most don't sign, although some (together with some Brighton drivers) were sent to quickly learn St Pancras to Finsbury Park (and Kings Cross). They all need route conducting for the bits they don't know with associated knock on delays if trains get cancelled or delayed. This has been evident at Finsbury Park.

3. The duties won't be the same each day for an individual driver. For a start the duties are different lengths (between 6 hours and 9 hours 54 minutes), so are placed in a rota called a 'link' and are worked in rotation by drivers, with different rest days each week. This makes an 'average week' of 35 hours, with some being less and some being more.


Similarly to the Sutton loop mentioned above - on the GN, some Cambridge to Kings Cross stopping services are now run by Welwyn Garden City traincrew depot, which isn't actually in existence yet, but are separate rotas (links) at Kings Cross and Hitchin until the new depot buildings are constructed. There's the same problem here in that any vacancies or trainees will be placed in these links as the drivers with the most seniority will remain at Kings Cross or Hitchin. Also, whereas all of Cambridge and Peterborough are trained on 700s, there are many at Kings Cross both in the 'remaining at Kings Cross link' and in 'Welwyn link', and also the Welwyn link at Hitchin who require traction training on them.


One thing no one has mentioned yet, is that any train booked to go via the Core is now dealt with by Thameslink SDC (Service Delivery Centre) at Three Bridges, with the trains booked to go to Kings Cross (that's booked not diverted) and Moorgate still being dealt with by Great Northern SDC at Kings Cross, and the extra phone calls, liaising, and added complications of left hand and right hand having to know what each are doing.

It remains to be seen whether phase two of transferring all the remaining GN services to come under Thameslink SDC, with the closure of Kings Cross SDC in the coming weeks, will make things better or worse.

It's huge. The list of things to overcome is of biblical proportions, and quite honestly if I could see it coming with nearly three weeks to go (see here, the last line in particular) I don't know why Chris Grayling and Charles Horton couldn't.

Thanks for that comprehensive and informative reply.

However, regarding the situation at Finsbury Park, from what I am reading on here, trains are arriving at the stn... driver gets off and goes for break... no replacement driver! if that's the case then surely someone somewhere knows that there is no driver at the changepoint so should therefore be doing something proactive to ensure that a train isn't left abandoned on a platform! as a bus controller, if I had a situation where a duty wasn't covered, I wouldn't keep my job for long if I just waited for an irate driver demanding to know where his relief was... I'd be expected to do something proactive to ensure that the service runs as seemlessly as possible {usually instruct driver to run a short working and then, if neccessary take the bus back to depot, or take it to the place where it will next be needed for service}

I'm still not sure why the management and unions can't get together, work out how many rota lines are able to be productively covered and then work a set of timetables/ rota's and duties that can be covered with available staff

 

[bramling]

Thanks for that comprehensive and informative reply.

However, regarding the situation at Finsbury Park, from what I am reading on here, trains are arriving at the stn... driver gets off and goes for break... no replacement driver! if that's the case then surely someone somewhere knows that there is no driver at the changepoint so should therefore be doing something proactive to ensure that a train isn't left abandoned on a platform! as a bus controller, if I had a situation where a duty wasn't covered, I wouldn't keep my job for long if I just waited for an irate driver demanding to know where his relief was... I'd be expected to do something proactive to ensure that the service runs as seemlessly as possible {usually instruct driver to run a short working and then, if neccessary take the bus back to depot, or take it to the place where it will next be needed for service}

I'm still not sure why the management and unions can't get together, work out how many rota lines are able to be productively covered and then work a set of timetables/ rota's and duties that can be covered with available staff

I’d be very surprised if trains are just being left at Finsbury Park. More likely the train turns up, no relief present, then a series of conversations between driver / signaller / TOC control / perhaps drivers own depot to find out what is going on. As you can imagine with all the chaos going on, quite possible to get a few unanswered calls or messages getting lost somewhere in all that.

Remember that the signallers don’t have a massive amount to do with crewing arrangements, so unless told otherwise they will expect the train to move. Again, plenty of scope for them not to be told (either in time or at all), or for a message to get missed or even forgotten.

The gist of all this is simply the railway is not in a state where it can reliably handle the timetable which has been foisted on it politically. Which is something many people have been saying for ages- but evidently people not familiar with the route thought differently.

 

[Bromley boy]

Does a 365 have guards panels? I can understand a potential can of worms, however if the member of staff has been appropriately trained and is licensed then I don’t see what the major issue is. Likewiae they’re fully familiar with the location - we’re not talking about transient agency staff here.

No, but keying on in a drivers cabs is something even guards can’t do at my TOC (they are not even allowed into active driving cabs except in very limited circumstances).

With respect to platform staff being trained up - I’d be amazed if this would include training sufficient to be unaccompanied in a live driving cab. I might be wrong of course

Good question re 365s having guards’ panels... I don’t know the answer to that. The cabs will certainly have a guards’ key switch which (I believe) activates the door control buttons. Actually, come to think of it, perhaps this is how they are doing it.

In the example I was thinking of, AFAICR it was a 365 which had come in ECS from somewhere and was booked to sit for about an hour. The outgoing driver was furious at being confronted with a platform full of people and thus having to take the time and effort to open up the rear cab. Happens quite a bit in the early morning too, especially where a driver comes off one train late and quickly crosses over to take a different train north - night duty last trip, so wants to be away on time no doubt!

Possibly the incoming driver should have been asked to put up a release. Probably a case of poor communication, unfortunately. As for the incoming driver being furious - some drivers get irrationally angry for silly reasons *. I must admit I’ve been confronted with the same and it’s no big deal - just jump into an the rear/intermediate cab, key on, put up a release. Bobs your mothers brother.

*I was b*llocked by one of our top link drivers (who was cover man) when I’d come back to the depot from the station and told him there was a unit in one of the platforms that needed a release and he’d presently be getting a call from the shunters office.

“Couldn’t you have done it?”

“Erm, I don’t sign the traction mate”.

It seems jobsworth/pedantic but in this job you quickly learn not to cut corners and cover your a*s at every turn.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I’d be very surprised if trains are just being left at Finsbury Park. More likely the train turns up, no relief present, then a series of conversations between driver / signaller / TOC control / perhaps drivers own depot to find out what is going on. As you can imagine with all the chaos going on, quite possible to get a few unanswered calls or messages getting lost somewhere in all that.

Remember that the signallers don’t have a massive amount to do with crewing arrangements, so unless told otherwise they will expect the train to move. Again, plenty of scope for them not to be told (either in time or at all), or for a message to get missed or even forgotten.

The gist of all this is simply the railway is not in a state where it can reliably handle the timetable which has been foisted on it politically. Which is something many people have been saying for ages- but evidently people not familiar with the route thought differently.

am I missing something here? having watched programmes such as Paddington 24/7 I was under the impression that the signallers are in the same loop as the controllers... or is it a case that the chaos is now so bad that no-one really knows what's going on until it's too late to do anything?

 

[Bromley boy]

am I missing something here? having watched programmes such as Paddington 24/7 I was under the impression that the signallers are in the same loop as the controllers... or is it a case that the chaos is now so bad that no-one really knows what's going on until it's too late to do anything?

They are supposed to be, but aren’t really.

I recently had a call from the signaller telling me my train had been cancelled when I’d already departed the origin station in service, stopped at three intermediate stations and had passengers aboard. I then agreed with the signaller I’d continue in service until I reached a station where the train could be locked out by staff.

When I arrived I ended up sitting there blocking the line for 15 minutes because nobody at the station had been informed they needed to do it.

Communication on the railway can be pretty woeful to say the least. This is the source of a great deal of frustration for staff and passengers alike.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm still not sure why the management and unions can't get together, work out how many rota lines are able to be productively covered and then work a set of timetables/ rota's and duties that can be covered with available staff

This already happens.

The problem with Thameslink at the moment goes far far far beyond rostering. Flexibility is built in to the roster and every single diagram I have had since May 20th has been amended in some way or another. Tomorrow is going to be interesting that's for sure.

*I was b*llocked by one of our top link drivers (who was cover man) when I’d come back to the depot from the station and told him there was a unit in one of the platforms that needed a release and he’d presently be getting a call from the shunters office.

I wonder why they said anything. Surely they knew you were not trained. Door releases on a 700 are stupidly complicated :/ I was shown a new technique to bypass putting a key on and then tried it for myself, on the same unit, less than 5 minutes later, and the doors didn't open. Part of traction knowledge is knowing how to deal with the foibles of each unit you drive.

As for commenting on skills required, I’ve done a range of jobs but I’ve never been a bus driver, so I’m going to plead ignorance.

My best mate was a Bus Driver.

 

[Bromley boy]

However, regarding the situation at Finsbury Park, from what I am reading on here, trains are arriving at the stn... driver gets off and goes for break... no replacement driver! if that's the case then surely someone somewhere knows that there is no driver at the changepoint so should therefore be doing something proactive to ensure that a train isn't left abandoned on a platform! as a bus controller, if I had a situation where a duty wasn't covered, I wouldn't keep my job for long if I just waited for an irate driver demanding to know where his relief was... I'd be expected to do something proactive to ensure that the service runs as seemlessly as possible {usually instruct driver to run a short working and then, if neccessary take the bus back to depot, or take it to the place where it will next be needed for service}

As a driver you *cannot* leave a train on a running line (ie anything other than a terminal platform). If you were due to be relieved but the relief wasn’t present you would have to terminate and run ECS to a depot/terminal station to get it out of the way.

The biggest issue is that the controllers at the TOC have no way of knowing where the drivers are when things are t*ts up + they are under resourced themselves.

I’ve experienced it myself - get to a terminal station 30 mins late, while I’m changing ends I’m told by the platform staff my next working has been cancelled, I phone control for instructions and the line is engaged or they simply don’t pick up.

My next-but-one working (a different unit) is supposed to depart from the location I was next due to drive to in 10 mins. It’s 30 mins away, the job is banjaxed anyway so there are no trains going there.

So that train will also be cancelled due to “a member of traincrew being unavailable”.

I'm still not sure why the management and unions can't get together, work out how many rota lines are able to be productively covered and then work a set of timetables/ rota's and duties that can be covered with available staff

Because TOCs generally want as few drivers as possible and rely on overtime (the unions would prefer more for obvious reasons). There is usually only one cover man per shift at my depot. Once they are used, they are gone.

 

[Bromley boy]

I wonder why they said anything. Surely they knew you were not trained. Door releases on a 700 are stupidly complicated :/ I was shown a new technique to bypass putting a key on and then tried it for myself, on the same unit, less than 5 minutes later, and the doors didn't open. Part of traction knowledge is knowing how to deal with the foibles of each unit you drive.

Indeed.

P*ss poor and very unprofessional. I gave him very short shrift (not sure who he was - opposite shift to me).

 

[Bromley boy]

Flexibility is built in to the roster and every single diagram I have had since May 20th has been amended in some way or another.

From what I’ve been told you guys are lucky to get a diagram at all, rather than a bit of paper saying “X - Y, all stops, don’t worry about timings”.