Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[fusionblue]

Train planning and rostering is at its core a numbers situation. There definitely has to be a software these days that can input all this information from the projected timetable and determine who and what is needed where. Supposing this software exists, and even the humans who would use them (who definitely do exist in such a role now even if the software does not) then it would have flagged up a shortfall almost immediately.

But it feels like we got:

"We are short on staff now"
"Lets keep going, it will be fine in time"

Qantas flies nonstop from Perth to London now and that flight would require weight and balance restrictions, the correct amount of fuel (itself for the distance and to carry the extra weight of the fuel for that distance) and enough relief crew to service that flight from end to end. You don't want to get half way over Asia to be told "our pilots require mandated rest and we dont have any extra so we're gonna land in Dubai for a bit". So how GTR, in a near identical situation -method of transport being different - must have known this up front (except if there was a sudden shortage between May 19 and 20) and was promptly ignored for the timetable switch to launch is baffling.

 

[MML]

Interesting observations. Sitting on Thameslink trains every day, I get the impression I probably have more insight as to what is happening than the GTR executive committee
A lot of the Sutton services are being cancelled. This must be lack of drivers rather than lack of route knowledge since Luton and St Albans to Sutton have been operating for months without any issues.
I noticed towards the start of May northbound services to Bedford were being routed via London Bridge, so drivers had obviously started accumulating route knowledge to travel northbound.
Yet far fewer southbound services were operating via LBG. So I suspect route learning was a little behind.
And the relatively few trains from GN through Canal tunnels prior to timetable change has led to the significant disruption operating TL services via Finsbury Park.

Seen lots of drivers under training now, but the doubling up is probably the reason why so many trains are parked up in the sidings.

What a mess.

 

[theageofthetra]

SE running Gillingham -CST stoppers this weekend

 

[Failed Unit]

I know saying this won't be popular with GN users: The GN Kings Cross /TL ECML services are less than 7% of the trains the franchise runs, with 67% still Southern (excluding GatEx) branded after the increase in Thameslink in May.

That is exactly why I don't understand why it is getting hit so badly, the peak services are reduced from the May timetable. But when you look at the service patterns now roughly.

Moorgate - Welwyn GC / Hertford - Off peak increase of 1tph - which it be fair is working.
London KX - Cambridge - again route knowledge hasn't altered, if they are really struggling for drivers then surely 1tph is achieveable rather than the total cancellation of the morning service we experienced today.
Brighton - Cambridge - This is new, but rarely runs anyway.
Peterborough - Horsham - Again this rarely runs but surely they could reliably run 1tph into KX even if they alternate the stock with London - Cambridge? Then if they are lucky they may get the other one running.
London - Kings Lynn - same as previousy.

Adding them up we had before the timetable change.

London Kings Cross - Peterborough 2tph
London Kings Cross - Cambridge 2tph
London Kings Cross - Cambridge (and beyond) 2tph.

Now we should have
St Pancras - Peterborough 2tph
Kings Cross - Cambridge 2tph
St Pancras - Cambridge 1tph
Kings Cross - Cambridge and beyond 1tph.

So really 1 tph extra on the outers but most hours they struggle to run half that number.

Noticed more ECS moves than passenger trains at WGC operated by class 700s today.

 

[sefton]

The service north out of St Pancras to Peterborough hit rock bottom today.
11.45 canx
12.15 canx
12.45 canx
13.15 canx
13.45 canx
14.15 canx
14.45 canx
15.15 canx
15.45 canx
16.15 canx
16.45 canx
17.15 canx
17.45 canx
18.15 canx
18.45 canx
19.15 canx

Nothing at all running after 11.15!

 

[sefton]

Also does anyone know if 9J46 ran from Kings Cross?

Realtime Trains showed it as departing from Kings Cross platform 8 at 16.16 (and acrually departing at 16.19) to Peterborough and the Opentraintimes map showed it on the move.

As it was not on the departure board I asked two GNR staff who were stood next to the empty 700 on platform 8 where Realtimtrains said it was departing from they were adamant it was not.

 

[gingerheid]

These are my thoughts from a GN perspective too. From a Cambridge point of view we are seeing far less trains than before as a result of a timetable that didn't give that many extra, and as there are really only one or two extra core trains per day compared to what was running pre timetable change it's not them that's causing the problem.

I'd hoped that we would be able to look and say that a little bit more was running each day, which is what you'd expect if they'd actually been pretty close to having the drivers in place on day one but the effects of disruption were amplified. That's not happening - if anything it's getting worse; which we can only conclude is because drivers are only starting to get trained now. The only conclusion this can leave is that on day one they were so incredibly far from having drivers in place and so little training had actually been completed that it was entirely dishonest to claim that there was any hope at all whatsoever that the timetable could have been operated. (And really not that long ago at all they were telling us that there were going to be running 4tph from Cambridge. I don't understand how it can be the case that they ever took any meaningful steps at all whatsoever to work towards that.)

 

[gingerheid]

Also does anyone know if 9J46 ran from Kings Cross?

Realtime Trains showed it as departing from Kings Cross platform 8 at 16.16 (and acrually departing at 16.19) to Peterborough and the Opentraintimes map showed it on the move.

As it was not on the departure board I asked two GNR staff who were stood next to the empty 700 on platform 8 where Realtimtrains said it was departing from they were adamant it was not.

It looks like it did; Realtime Trains is making up quite a lot of data points if it isn't! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O06778/2018/06/08/advanced

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

some things about this meltdown just do not make sense...

1. why is route knowledge such an issue for the old Thameslink routes? ie Bedford- Brighton and Luton- Sutton these have been running now for over 20 years... so any driver claiming no route knowledge is surely either a) a new starter or b) taking advantage of a bad situation and is lying through their back teeth..

2. Why are there so many problems with trains getting stuck at Finsbury Park with no drivers... if that is the scheduled driver change point then surely SOMEONE SOMEWHERE has the duty/ rota plan... and will know in advance that the service will have to terminate earlier than it's destination and can take evasive action..

3. why hasn't Thameslink re-written the duties and rotas so that they can operate the same journeys daily?

 

[GoatSarah]

The problems at Cambridge seem to be twofold:

The GN semi fast has gone. It’s been replaced by the Thameslink Brighton service which basically doesn’t exist.

In order to serve the stations that the semi fast would serve, the expresses are being demoted to semi fasts. This is causing considerable crowding and delaying stuff all over the network. Trains that used to do the journey in just over 45 minutes are now taking an hour and a half.

The second problem appears to be the stoppers are now using 700s and they don’t have drivers for them.

So maybe one token Brighton service a day is getting through. The rest of the work is being done by the Cambridge expresses which were always busy even when they didn’t call at extra stations.

I used the CBG to KGX route both today and yesterday. It’s getting worse almost by the hour. We can’t be that far away from total service collapse on that route.

Cambridge is one of the busiest stations in the east of England. It’s a major commuter destination in its own right as well as feeding large numbers of people into London, and it’s days away from essentially not having any rail service other than Greater Anglia’s 2 tph to LST.

 

[CMS]

deleted

 

[GordonT]

Thameslink managing to field a 5-train per hour level of service southbound through the core between 1700 and 1800 this evening. Departures from STP at 1706 (Rainham); 1727 (Sutton); 1732 (Rainham); 1742 (Sutton); and 1757 (Sutton). Am I reading duff information or are there genuinely no Brighton trains running ex STP between 1650 and 1850?

 

[sefton]

It looks like it did; Realtime Trains is making up quite a lot of data points if it isn't! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O06778/2018/06/08/advanced

That is what I thought.

Rather a pity it ran empty as they couldn't be bothered to put it on the boards and the staff couldn't be bothered to check when asked.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just to summarise today on the slows.

1121 - removed from timetable
1151 - Cancelled at 1215 - No rolling stock
1221 - Cancelled at 1225 - No driver
1251 - RAN - first train on the London Kings Cross - Cambridge service for a number of hours.

What was particually frustrating is the 1151 - started of as a creaping delay before it was cancelled, the 1221 went quicker. If they were both cancelled in advance I would have gone to Finsbury Park. The only reason I stayed at KX was at 1135 when I arrived there was a class 700 on platform 11. It never moved. A 2nd one arrived at 1150 (which I thought they would use the driver on the 1151) but didn't.

That is the problem you just can't plan - even if you are stood on the platform. This week it is definately worse. Lets see what next week brings - no trains at all between 1000 -1600 so they can run the peak service?

 

[London Trains]

The service north out of St Pancras to Peterborough hit rock bottom today.
11.45 canx
12.15 canx
12.45 canx
13.15 canx
13.45 canx
14.15 canx
14.45 canx
15.15 canx
15.45 canx
16.15 canx
16.45 canx
17.15 canx
17.45 canx
18.15 canx
18.45 canx
19.15 canx

Nothing at all running after 11.15!

And the rest up to end of service cancelled too

 

[Paul London]

Thameslink managing to field a 5-train per hour level of service southbound through the core between 1700 and 1800 this evening. Departures from STP at 1706 (Rainham); 1727 (Sutton); 1732 (Rainham); 1742 (Sutton); and 1757 (Sutton). Am I reading duff information or are there genuinely no Brighton trains running ex STP between 1650 and 1850?

Yes that’s right. At City Thameslink trying to get to East Croydon. Advised to walk to Blackfriars and get a tube to Victoria.

 

[Spartacus]

And the rest up to end of service cancelled too

Two hours without a southbound service at Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave, barely better from Bedford, and over 90 minutes between northbounds.....

 

[bionic]

Tomorrow it seems SE are running 465s Orpington to Victoria (all stations) via the Catford loop and Thameslink 700s are running Sevenoaks to Victoria (all stations except Brixton) via the Chatham main. What's all that about?

 

[NorthKent1989]

The 1841 from Blackfriars to Rochester is once again the last Thameslink train of the day, on the Greenwich/Woolwich line, meaning that it’s the last train for Higham for the day

I sincerely hope there isn’t way people can be compensated for this mess, it’s unreasonable that people are losing their jobs and missing vital appointments.

 

[bramling]

The service north out of St Pancras to Peterborough hit rock bottom today.
11.45 canx
12.15 canx
12.45 canx
13.15 canx
13.45 canx
14.15 canx
14.45 canx
15.15 canx
15.45 canx
16.15 canx
16.45 canx
17.15 canx
17.45 canx
18.15 canx
18.45 canx
19.15 canx

Nothing at all running after 11.15!

This shambles simply cannot go on, one wonders how feasible it could be to revert the entire GB rail timetable back to the last one?!

The whole situation is simply a disgrace to the rail industry, the whole Thameslink Programme must now be fatally discredited.

 

[Mauve]

The service north out of St Pancras to Peterborough hit rock bottom today.
11.45 canx
12.15 canx
12.45 canx
13.15 canx
13.45 canx
14.15 canx
14.45 canx
15.15 canx
15.45 canx
16.15 canx
16.45 canx
17.15 canx
17.45 canx
18.15 canx
18.45 canx
19.15 canx

Nothing at all running after 11.15!

The Horsham to Peterborough route seems to have been a complete disaster, and is only getting worse. It's now at the stage where I'm avoiding the train unless I really have to, and am not using it at the weekends at all. If I knew that I was going to have to change at Stevenage or Hitchin for a shuttle-type service in off peak hours I could at least plan around that, but at the moment it's just a case of showing up at a London station and hoping for the best. Yesterday was bearable, but today was a bit of a shambles.

I got to St Pancras around 1430 and asked when the next Peterborough train was as the 1445 and 1515 were both cancelled - one of the staff said the 1545 would be running, even though NRE said it hadn't left Horsham yet, and it was just getting later and later. I wasn't convinced the 1615 would run either. The next train that looked like it would actually run was the 1636 from Kings Cross (over two hours after the last one).

I went back to Kings Cross and asked at the barriers how to best get to St Neots and if I could get a replacement bus from Hitchin or Stevenage. Very helpful member of staff gets on the radio and arranges for the next Cambridge service to stop at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin and Letchworth in addition - I assume he'd had other people asking. I hung around on the platform long enough to see someone else give the driver the stop order and boarded.

Bus at Hitchin was already waiting when the train got there around 1540 and was much more comfortable than I imagine the 1636 was. It took a while (around 90 minutes) in the Friday traffic, but I still got back to St Neots more quickly than waiting at KGX. I honestly can't remember the last time before today I had to catch a replacement bus that wasn't due to planned engineering works or a major infrastructure fault (the last one of those was a tree blocking the line on the Liverpool Street to Cambridge route) - this must be how Southern customers felt a couple of years ago.

 

[sefton]

Bus at Hitchin was already waiting when the train got there around 1540 and was much more comfortable than I imagine the 1636 was.

Yesterday the 1636 was hilarious.

The driver was delayed on an inbound service (fair enough) and didn't arrive until 1650.

The train had been on the platform since 1610 but some bright spark decided to keep the doors closed, so everyone had to stand waiting for 40 minutes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

This shambles simply cannot go on, one wonders how feasible it could be to revert the entire GB rail timetable back to the last one?!

The whole situation is simply a disgrace to the rail industry, the whole Thameslink Programme must now be fatally discredited.

I too think the old timetable should be restored and the Thameslink routes should be thought out better and be realistic about tph through the core, I can’t trust Thameslink to run 18-24tph through the core since it’s linking four busy classic main line railways together I would run 12-16tph realistically, and perhaps even delay the December timetable changes too.

 

[hwl]

This shambles simply cannot go on, one wonders how feasible it could be to revert the entire GB rail timetable back to the last one?!

The whole situation is simply a disgrace to the rail industry, the whole Thameslink Programme must now be fatally discredited.

1. Easier for GTR to train drivers than revert.
2. TLP discredited - probably just Siemens delivering on time which they weren't doing anyway on other orders and GTRs ability to have enough DIs. How are NR discredited?

 

[ComUtoR]

The train had been on the platform since 1610 but some bright spark decided to keep the doors closed, so everyone had to stand waiting for 40 minutes.

This makes a lot of sense from an operational perspective.

 

[SVG2076]

I am on the 1844 train now from Cambridge heading for Stevenage.

I initially planned to use the 1827 stopper to get to stevenage but as the scheduled arrival time of the demoted Cambridge express is just one minute later than the 1827 train, I decided to ride on 1844 train instead and I am glad that I have made the correct choice as the 1827 train is cancelled anyway. Fortunately I am going to Stevenage instead of Baldock as there is literally no train serving baldock and Cambridge villages for 2 hours already. It is sort of sad sitting on a train overlooking the confused passengers at the village station who might have wait for hours for trains. It also seems that the demoted Cambridge fast only runs once per hour in the evening.

As I have to get back to Cambridge from London on Sunday, I am going buy advance ticket out from Liverpool Street instead of using the unreliable GN services.

 

[Failed Unit]

This makes a lot of sense from an operational perspective.

I would agree. If they cancel it you don’t need to get people off. People can hear the station announcers.

 

[JonathanH]

Seems the Core is shut on Sunday so no new routes for anyone to drive?

Does that mean that all of the routes will get the advertised service?

 

[JonathanH]

Tomorrow it seems SE are running 465s Orpington to Victoria (all stations) via the Catford loop and Thameslink 700s are running Sevenoaks to Victoria (all stations except Brixton) via the Chatham main. What's all that about?

Engineering work Herne Hill to Blackfriars presumably (but yes, really odd to see Sevenoaks to Victoria via Herne Hill run by Thameslink and Orpington to Victoria via Denmark Hill run by SouthEastern).

No sign of any service on the Sutton loop at the moment - make your own way by local buses?

 

[Failed Unit]

Seems the Core is shut on Sunday so no new routes for anyone to drive?

Does that mean that all of the routes will get the advertised service?

I doubt it. GN hasn’t gone through the core at weekends since the timetable change. Their performance is just as pathetic at weekends as if is in the week.