Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

It’s getting worse at Cambridge too. Much worse. Last week a few Brighton services were getting through. Now it seems they’re almost completely extinct. No idea how they expect to train drivers on a route that essentially doesn’t exist.

Went to KGX from Cambridge yesterday. They turned at least 3 consecutive “fasts” into semi fasts, presumably because the Brighton service doesn’t exist.

The result is that we have not only lost the daily Brighton service we had earlier this year: we’ve also lost our Kings Cross expresses that we’ve had since the 90s.

And it seems to get worse with each passing day.

You forgot to mention the slow service is all but gone as well.

 

[Failed Unit]

Horton's track record is perennially one of failure. He has the reverse Midas touch. It's entirely reasonable to call for the removal of both him, Grayling and Hendy, since they get paid the big bucks, the buck stops with them. It was their collective responsibility to oversee the Thameslink programme and would no doubt have made sure they reaped the plaudits (and relevant performance bonuses) had it been implemented smoothly.

If the forthcoming enquiry reveals that they were warned by their subordinates that there were fundamental problems looming on the horizon, but they pushed on regardless, for whatever reason, ignorance, hubris or sheer incompetence, then all the more reason to remove them and prevent them from acheiving such influential positions again in the future.

In financial services there is a requirement for key players in financial businesses to pass a "fit and proper persons test", the same priniciples should apply in all business, politics and public service.

If the enquiry shows that further down the management chain there was also a loack of ability to identify the upcoming omishambles, then those people should be escorted from the relevant building with their posessions in a cardboard box as well.

It isn't rocket science.

Absolutely.

Watching this unfold.

Day of timetable release. Teething problems all will be good in 2 weeks.
3 weeks in. Things are getting worse. Emergency timetable in July. (Who knows how long for)

So Horton / Grayling either were lying on the timetable launch day or didn’t know. Both are equally as bad. Whenever I have being involved in major product introductions, the CEO is asking by their management chain if everything is in place. From what we know now it was never going to work, but no one knew? really? No one asked? No one checked? No-one wanted to see evidence that the plan would work? Don’t think Horton is losing any sleep over this.

Northern I have a little more sympathy because of delays to electrification but how long have the canal tunnels being available for?

 

[Robin Edwards]

And the CEO would not have been responsible for every task on the project - so let's get the whole project team fired if we're going down that route, right down to the administrators and planners.

There is a clear difference though between Responsibility and Accountability. In my line of business on any project of such magnitude I would not expect the accountable owner of the programme to remain in post having caused such mayhem to their paying customers. It's situations where we see incompetence reigning through 'old boy's networks' & appointments that beggers belief to most people. Hire & fire prevails at lower levels of management - make no mistake.

 

[c52]

What's the reason trains from London to Croydon are being sent via Elephant rather than London Bridge? My wife saw two consecutive trains cancelled at LBG after they'd left Blackfriars last night, and I have heard from someone this morning who learned after he'd joined a northbound train that it wouldn't stop at LBG.

 

[jon0844]

Otherwise - would it be possible to just use the current "Thameslink" paths on the GN route but terminate them all/mostly at Kings Cross instead of going through the core? That's obviously not great for people wanting to use them south of London - not sure what happens there...

In the week at least, Network Rail has said no bloody way to that idea. A 12 car train diverted to KGX and then sat there for the time it would have taken to run the train to Brighton or Horsham and back would be a real problem. The decision has been made to force the train through, even if sitting blocking a platform at FPK for an hour. The other solution is not to run the train if you know there is no driver to take it forward, but before anyone says that's common sense, I think they have been running trains on the assumption that there will be a driver there, but some have not been there when the train arrives for whatever reason (most likely being stuck somewhere because other disrupted services).

The King's Cross to Cambridge stoppers are impacted massively by the problems at FPK, with so many repeat incidences of a 2Cnn service getting to FPK, getting stuck, reversing and then running through on another line, being late, having stops taken out or terminating early, so as to hopefully provide some service back to KGX.. then repeat.

I think that if control cannot be 99% sure a driver will be meeting a train at FPK, they should seriously consider cancelling it. Perhaps run PBO to Stevenage or Hitchin trains, so people can connect to - hopefully - less disrupted CBG-KGX services.

I also think they need to consider running more all station services in any emergency timetable because stop orders and not-to-stop orders are not always getting through. Many trains sail through stations and get passengers upset (rightly) and staff get the abuse.

 

[ComUtoR]

Instead of calling for heads to roll or another pointless inquiry; what should be happening is that there should be calls to fix this disaster. All that is currently happening is that GTR are reacting to problems and either sticking their heads in the sand about others or putting a temporary bandage on it.

There is also a massive disconnect between higher up and those on the ground. I have no expectation for Charles Horton to know what each train is doing or what each member of staff is booked to do but I do expect him to have the most basic of awareness of how each department is performing and what the issues are.

There are many many questions that need to be answered but more importantly they need to be resolved and any re-occurrence prevented.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you're suggesting that all the necessary Drivers were trained on 700's, you are very mistaken, specifically regarding the GN side.

I did suspect that was the case considering how difficult it is to run the London Kings Cross - Cambridge service. Wish they would use the 365s off peak.

 

[Stampy]

It has to be better than blocking a line at Finsbury Park while they wait for a driver anyway.

It happens VERY frequently - see the bottom of my post above

 

[GoatSarah]

The King's Cross to Cambridge stoppers are impacted massively by the problems at FPK, with so many repeat incidences of a 2Cnn service getting to FPK, getting stuck, reversing and then running through on another line, being late, having stops taken out or terminating early, so as to hopefully provide some service back to KGX.. then repeat.

It's not just the stoppers. The express service is now collapsing because as the stoppers get cancelled they're turning the expresses into stoppers to give intermediate stations some service.

But when they get there they were already nearly standing room only when they left Cambridge.

It was bad 2 weeks ago. It's *much* worse now. I have to take a train to London soon. Seriously thinking of using Greater Anglia instead. It may even be faster.

I'm trying to get to Blackfriars. I'd happily sit on a semi fast TL service, but I don't think a single train has made it though the TL core to or from Cambridge yet today.

I think that if control cannot be 99% sure a driver will be meeting a train at FPK, they should seriously consider cancelling it. Perhaps run PBO to Stevenage or Hitchin trains, so people can connect to - hopefully - less disrupted CBG-KGX services.

I also think they need to consider running more all station services in any emergency timetable because stop orders and not-to-stop orders are not always getting through. Many trains sail through stations and get passengers upset (rightly) and staff get the abuse.

The idea that GN is "less disrupted" is getting further and further from reality, sadly. The view from Cambridge is that while the rump GN services seemed to be initially relatively reliable, they're now collapsing, badly.

At the rate of decline there will be no CBG-KGX service that's recognisable as such in a week or two.

 

[Silverdale]

There are many many questions that need to be answered but more importantly they need to be resolved and any re-occurrence prevented.

The mantra as delivered by Grayling to the HoC this week.

But does anyone have any expectation that the right and pertinent questions will be asked, let alone answered?

Some or other scapegoats will be identified and, problem solved, we will shamble on towards the next farcical chapter of UK passenger rail.

 

[Failed Unit]

Another example of to the passenger why this shambles is looking so bad.

1151 Kings Cross - Cambridge service is showing as “delayed”. Apparently no stock despite 2x class 700s in kings cross. One will be used for 1221 service. Who knows about the other.

I suspect the 1151 will be cancelled like every other train since 1000 on this route. But why it took someone until after midday to tell anyone grates me as a passenger. If I had known in advance I would have got the tube to Finsbury Park.

As we keep repeating- we just can’t plan. Suspect if the 1151 runs it will skip stop.

**. It didn’t. So everyone on 1221. I just don’t understand 1. Why they are short of stock considering nothing has ran north since at least 0951. 2. What is wrong with the train on platform 11. 3 why it took until 1215 to cancel? What were they expecting to change? As stated earlier if they had just cancelled it I would have gone to Finsbury Park by tube.

 

[MikeWM]

It's not just the stoppers. The express service is now collapsing because as the stoppers get cancelled they're turning the expresses into stoppers to give intermediate stations some service.

I have to agree - for example, look at the Kings Lynn services last night. The 1941 is 17 minutes leaving Cambridge. Then it is almost 2 hours before another train to Kings Lynn! The 2038 is 58 late arriving at Cambridge and is then cancelled. The 2108 is 34 late arriving at Cambridge and is then also cancelled. The 2137 runs, but is 21 minutes late leaving Cambridge.

(I was there to watch this debacle at Cambridge last night as I was trying to get to Ely and unfortunately just missed the 2115 GA to Norwich. The whole time a 700 which was supposedly the 2127 to Kings Cross was blocking platform 4. No announcement as to why it wasn't leaving (according to RTT it never left!).

The 2038 arrives 58 late on platform 1, sits there for 5 minutes or so, and then they decide to cancel it and tell everyone on it to get the 2108 by making the very long walk over to platform 8. The 2108 arrives on platform 8 34 late, decouples the front 4 carriages as expected, and then itself just sits there! Then the (also extremely late, but at least they had infrastructure excuses) 2016 GA train arrives on platform 7. All the people now on the 2108, including those who were on the 2038, are now told to get this instead (!). Except for those for Cambridge North, who are told to go all the way back over to platform 1 (!) and get the 2137, as the GA doesn't stop there. The GA leaves for Kings Lynn. The 2108 is then also cancelled. The 2137 finally leaves for Kings Lynn (with me on it).)

It was bad 2 weeks ago. It's *much* worse now.

I agree. The Cambridge fasts were originally the least affected, so they're now being used to attempt to ease all the other issues.

I have to take a train to London soon. Seriously thinking of using Greater Anglia instead. It may even be faster.

Cheaper too, if you commit to a GA-only ticket But yes, I've been doing this for a while and generally I'd recommend it.

 

[tsr]

What's the reason trains from London to Croydon are being sent via Elephant rather than London Bridge? My wife saw two consecutive trains cancelled at LBG after they'd left Blackfriars last night, and I have heard from someone this morning who learned after he'd joined a northbound train that it wouldn't stop at LBG.

They are two very different routes. Thameslink drivers will have had less time to train on the London Bridge-Blackfriars direct route, given that it opened recently, in comparison to the through route via Herne Hill, which they were all trained on for some time as a long-term diversion. Therefore, some drivers may only be competent to drive via Herne Hill to get to London, and if there is no pilot driver available, they can only use that route.

Obviously there are other issues with speed of training / readiness of the training programme / driver scheduling, as are being discussed in other posts on this thread.

 

[gingerheid]

Three weeks in there still doesn't seem to be adequate information about the services that are actually running!

The predecessor to the 0729 from Cambridge North was that (newish) station's busiest service, and was a little bit busier every time I took it. Immediately before the timetable change it had got to no seats level of busy at Cambridge North.

In the new printed timetables it's now completely missing, and in electronic systems it shows as a train to Cambridge (with a connection to London in journey planners, but initially it didn't even show as a connection with itself and an earlier train from Cambridge North was suggested). While people do seem to be working out that it exists and it is slowly getting busier again (on day one there there 3 people in my carriage, that's now about 25% full), we do now have the bizarre and wasteful situation of very many empty seats arriving in London in rush hour!

 

[whitrope]

Sadly there was a time when running a railway was something important. Not running the advertised timetable should not be considered in any way acceptable- it’s the whole point of a railway.

As for Horton, I think many people would probably be pleased to see the back of Horton, GTR and anyone else involved in this shambles. Any promise of improvement is hollow - these incompetents simply can’t be trusted with either specification nor delivery. The legacy of this shambles is going to take a while to sort out, and it needs people who know what they’re doing.

I agree Horton must go as a sacrifice at the very least. However if he did it would no doubt involve a pay off to buy his silence and he would no doubt pop up in another high paid job before the year was out.

 

[hwl]

If Charles Horton doesn’t get sacked you would hope he was unemployable after this.

So Mr Horton. Let’s look at your CV

1. Connex
2. GTR

What did you do well at GTR? I see customer satisfaction was down before railplan 2020. Oh the Southern reforms?

It does make me wonder what incentive GTR have to fix this. People just don’t want to use the train for leisure journeys now. You can’t plan it is just are you feeling lucky punk? But it is us (or DfT) that is taking the hit in revenue. Are GTR taking and pain financially?

Just looked at old Thameslink, it has massive gaps as well on the Bedford route. What Horton is saying doesn’t add up. The enquiry will be interesting. I don’t think anyone will come out of this well. I suspect NR will not be looking as bad as GTR / Grayling want them to look.

It think you'll find Horton was brought into Connex 6 weeks before the end (when they already knew it was being stripped from them) as a fire fighter acceptable to the new team (Govia). So not really part of the Connex issues (the biggest of which was DfT not realising what they had effectively agreed to fund via the SRA when the franchise was awarded then refusing to pay up, the mess was the connex trying to run things with no money.)

Horton however is an ineffective manager with no feel for what is happening on the ground, unrealistic beliefs in modelling (ops and financial) and scaring everyone so no one wants to be the messenger being shot. His tenure at SE is the best example of being distinctly unremarkable when things weren't that hard.

Agree on the outcome of the enquiry especially NR not so much in the dog house (unless they get told to take the hit)

 

[Failed Unit]

It think you'll find Horton was brought into Connex 6 weeks before the end (when they already knew it was being stripped from them) as a fire fighter acceptable to the new team (Govia). So not really part of the Connex issues (the biggest of which was DfT not realising what they had effectively agreed to fund via the SRA when the franchise was awarded then refusing to pay up, the mess was the connex trying to run things with no money.)

Horton however is an ineffective manager with no feel for what is happening on the ground, unrealistic beliefs in modelling (ops and financial) and scaring everyone so no one wants to be the messenger being shot. His tenure at SE is the best example of being distinctly unremarkable when things weren't that hard.

Agree on the outcome of the enquiry especially NR not so much in the dog house (unless they get told to take the hit)

Thanks for clarifying the point.

I suspect NR rail be made to take the blame on this one. Although I have a feeling the railway press won’t take this at face value. On my forever delayed attempt to get out of Kings Cross the 1221 is now delayed with no driver. (Now cancelled). So nearly 1 hour waiting at kings cross for trains cancelled at the last minute. Not that they have told anyone on the train

Maybe having a few drivers short you could understand but consider the basic timetable is not much different to the consultation it does add up.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks for clarifying the point.

I suspect NR rail be made to take the blame on this one. Although I have a feeling the railway press won’t take this at face value. On my forever delayed attempt to get out of Kings Cross the 1221 is now delayed with no driver. (Now cancelled). So nearly 1 hour waiting at kings cross for trains cancelled at the last minute. Not that they have told anyone on the train

Maybe having a few drivers short you could understand but consider the basic timetable is not much different to the consultation it does add up.

I really do think you need to go to FPK and see what's going on from there. At least you've got the stoppers as fallbacks.

It is so bad at King's Cross that there's a dinosaur on the concourse. Clearly showing how long some have had to wait.

 

[GoatSarah]

Catching the 12:44 CBG-KGX express. As expected it’s just been downgraded to a stopper. Going to be late for my meeting. Not happy.

ETA: and there’s a “rostering error” and we have no driver apparently.

 

[Stampy]

And just my luck - according to the Railcam Cam of the Week - Peterborough Cam 1-Railworld - the stock for the 1254 train to Horsham has JUST pulled into platform 1 at PBO.....

 

[Failed Unit]

Catching the 12:44 CBG-KGX express. As expected it’s just been downgraded to a stopper. Going to be late for my meeting. Not happy b

Don’t count on it going anywhere. I have bieng sat on it since about midday.

 

[Failed Unit]

I really do think you need to go to FPK and see what's going on from there. At least you've got the stoppers as fallbacks.

It is so bad at King's Cross that there's a dinosaur on the concourse. Clearly showing how long some have had to wait.

Sadly you are right. But when you are sat on a train - you think you should have a reasonable chance of it leaving.

I wonder if just running the entire UK timetable onto December would really be that undesirable? Ie just not implement the May 2018 timetable anywhere in uk. Or would things still be as bad on GN as we are still short of drivers to run the 700s.

*** should add. I know we can’t roll back the timetable now. For clarity I mean in hindsight should we have not implemented it at all once it was clear it couldn’t be delivered. It appears they never had a backout plan. Unless this is the backout plan.

 

[Stampy]

I was stood at Finsbury Park between 5pm and 5.20pm last night...

The train I got off of had come from Horsham and was awaiting a relief driver - problem was it was signaled onto the main line, so NOTHING could go past heading Northbound...

Happened again 10 minutes later when the Cambridge train pulled in....

I counted at least 6 Inter-City services (VTEC, Hull Trains etc) crawling through Finsbury Park due to signal checks in the time I was there!!!

 

[Spamcan81]

Just looking at Opentraintimes signalling maps and if they’re to be believed, virtually no locals running on the GN section with the notable exception of the Moorgates. Disgraceful.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just looking at Opentraintimes signalling maps and if they’re to be believed, virtually no locals running on the GN section with the notable exception of the Moorgates. Disgraceful.

It feels like that. But according to their ppm they are doing well today.

The screen at WGC have an advert. “great northern delivering services fit for the future”. Think they need to take it down. Most of us have tried the future and want the past back.

 

[bramling]

I was stood at Finsbury Park between 5pm and 5.20pm last night...

The train I got off of had come from Horsham and was awaiting a relief driver - problem was it was signaled onto the main line, so NOTHING could go past heading Northbound...

Happened again 10 minutes later when the Cambridge train pulled in....

I counted at least 6 Inter-City services (VTEC, Hull Trains etc) crawling through Finsbury Park due to signal checks in the time I was there!!!

So evidently the comms between different functions aren’t robust enough to deliver this timetable either. Thameslink simply isn’t suitable for being foisted on the GN in the way it has been. The whole thing needs to be stopped and a re-think done ASAP.

 

[guilbert]

*** should add. I know we can’t roll back the timetable now.

Is it actually that bad a prospect - carrying on with the current timetable until December isn't much of option either.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is it actually that bad a prospect - carrying on with the current timetable until December isn't much of option either.

I think south of the river it would be too much upheaval. North of the river EMT could roll back with happy passengers. ECML didn’t change much anyway.

 

[GoatSarah]

Is it actually that bad a prospect - carrying on with the current timetable until December isn't much of option either.

Yeah. Something has to give. Great Northern is completely falling apart.

 

[hwl]

I think south of the river it would be too much upheaval. North of the river EMT could roll back with happy passengers. ECML didn’t change much anyway.

South of the River last saw such big changes before I was born and things are now working much better for Southern passengers (unless you live in Redhill) with most of the issues direct knock on effects from Thameslink issues e.g. adding stops into GatEx south of 3 Bridges to compensate for lack of TL trains ditto Southern via Horsham Services that will resolve themselves when TL get enough drivers. Before the TT change the dwell times south of the river were too short so reverting isn't really an option as GTR would be liable for penalties for the inevitable delays and late running from September.

The only thing preventing bigger changes at EMT is the Derby resignalling blockades from July - September hence the EMT situation should improve in December when they can make more changes (which will enable the 16tph on the MML, up from 15tph).

I know saying this won't be popular with GN users: The GN Kings Cross /TL ECML services are less than 7% of the trains the franchise runs, with 67% still Southern (excluding GatEx) branded after the increase in Thameslink in May.