Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[AM9]

Passing Cricklewood sidings this evening, I counted 12 x 700's parked at 1800. These sidings are normally empty of stock during the peak of rush hour. So obviously, there are insufficient drivers with route knowledge to perform the full timetable. ...

I suppose thet it would be more than that as some of the drivers are tied up piloting (or driving) trains through the core. Either way that would require additional cover for the changeovers at London Bridge, Elephant & Castle and Finsbury Park as well as the running to Kings Cross and Blackfriars to terminate there. Then there are any drivers on route learning.
If they tried to man all the trains, there would be no progress in increasing the number of available trained drivers.

 

[ComUtoR]

If they tried to man all the trains, there would be no progress in increasing the number of available trained drivers.

It is the lack of services that is causing more of an issue with route and Driver training.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I was planning to use one of the new services on 27 and 29 July (st Pancras to Horsham, connecting with an LNER service). How is that one doing? And, would the tickets also be valed on my alternative route (tube plus Southern, via Victoria)?

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

 

[Abpj17]

Sorry if I have missed it somewhere on this thread but can anybody clarify exactly who/which organisations were on the 'Readiness Board'. Apart from Chris Gibb some trade magazine references have said that he was assisted by Chris Green. The NAO report of last autumn doesn't seem to list the sederunt.

When a board was first mentioned, back in the October 2016 Modern Railways there was mention of a 'passenger representative'. How did that go?

Industry Readiness Board was a recommendation by Chris Gibb

• It was set up in January 2017 with Chris Gibb as Chair. But if he was on the network rail board at the same time, I can’t see how he would be an independent chair - there is an inherent conflict)
• The Gibb report recommends a passenger rep to be nominated by southern MPs
• It’s remit is independently review, direct and challenge the industry programme delivering Thameslink 2018 (?the timetable and??)
• It had met at least ten times in 2017 and the DfT implies because it discusses commercially and oeprationally sensitive issues there are no plans to publish minutes. (That’s a cop-out, that suggests transparency at a lag would be appropriate). https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ts/written-question/Commons/2017-11-23/115509
• Appendix 8 of the Gibb report describes the Board, but I can’t see it in the published version?! (Edit: scanned letter so text search doesn't find it.... p155 of https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf )
• Grayling also referred to an Independent Assurance Panel. This is chaired by Chris Green, ‘double-checking the work that is going on to make sure it is reliable and will deliver the outputs that we seek’

 

[MikeWh]

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

It's far too early to predict what will be happening at the end of July. But yes, your ticket will be valid via Victoria and the tube unless it says Not Underground.

 

[tsr]

Same on the the Southern side, as a driver it pays for me to check what the departure board is saying!

I know quite a few drivers who religiously check departure boards as a primary source of info for calling patterns. Rather worrying really. But often a good idea.

Platforms weren't particularly overcrowded, it's almost as if people have given up trying to commute.

A lot of people are just aiming for any available parallel service (eg. using Victoria vice London Bridge) and seem to have worked out some sort of approximate alternative which avoids TL at least in Central London. It’s definitely noticeable when passengers are working around cancelled TL services at places like London Bridge. Often, regulars are just completely discounting TL platforms and even trains which are running. It will be ages, if ever, before trust is regained.

It is the lack of services that is causing more of an issue with route and Driver training.

Definitely a spiral of doom. More services need more drivers who can’t train on fewer services...

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

Some are. I’ve attempted to catch a couple today (without success) - but it seemed most of them ran between mid morning and early afternoon.

 

[Hearadh]

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

Some are running but unpredictable. As I understand it, if your ticket is a walk up or advance ticket routed any permitted with the Maltese cross symbol it includes cross London LUL travel.

Beaten to it by MikeWh

 

[Verulamius]

It was the Thameslink Readiness Board which changed the rollout of Thameslink in late November 2017.

https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...led-for-may-2018-south-east-timetable-2285889

It was this change which resulted in late timetables, made worse by the Northern complications straining NR resources, leaving not enough time to produce efficient driver rosters etc.

 

[Abpj17]

It was the Thameslink Readiness Board which changed the rollout of Thameslink in late November 2017.

https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...led-for-may-2018-south-east-timetable-2285889

It was this change which resulted in late timetables, made worse by the Northern complications straining NR resources, leaving not enough time to produce efficient driver rosters etc.

I've submitted FOI requests to NR and ORR to see what they might release about the Board...

 

[sefton]

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

90% of them were cancelled this afternoon.

Staff at Finsbury Park (where a Horsham bound train gave up this morning for lack of a driver) were telling people their tickets were valid whatever reasonable route they choose to use to get to their destination (although the test would be whether the tube staff would really accept "not valid on the underground" tickets).

 

[WeGoAgain]

It was the Thameslink Readiness Board which changed the rollout of Thameslink in late November 2017.

https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...led-for-may-2018-south-east-timetable-2285889

It was this change which resulted in late timetables, made worse by the Northern complications straining NR resources, leaving not enough time to produce efficient driver rosters etc.

Thanks for this, it's a laugh to read now.
"Charles Horton, Chief Executive Officer of GTR, said: “Passengers will see a transformation in services in May next year..."
Tell me about it!

 

[Hophead]

90% of them were cancelled this afternoon.

Staff at Finsbury Park (where a Horsham bound train gave up this morning for lack of a driver) were telling people their tickets were valid whatever reasonable route they choose to use to get to their destination (although the test would be whether the tube staff would really accept "not valid on the underground" tickets).

The Thameslink disruptions page explicitly states that you may travel by

• London Underground via any reasonable route.

 

[MML]

Will someone answer my question - are any of the Horsham services running?

Peterborough to Horsham services are certainly a bit flaky at the moment. I wouldn't be putting my trust in a direct service at the moment. Today, a Horsham to Peterborough service was non-operational from Horsham. It crawled out of the sidings at Gatwick Airport heading northbound about 20 minutes late. On reaching Finsbury Park, the delay grew to 50 minutes so my guess is this was awaiting a driver to take the train north to Peterborough.

Things may improve by July, but I would suggest catching the first available services from STP to Gatwick Airport and change there for Horsham. Southern are still operating Bognor Regis and Portsmouth services via Horsham from Victoria which stop at Gatwick.

 

[Dunnyrail]

I have heard it suggested that some within the industry (although I don’t know who the some is) wanted this change pushed back to December however DfT were adamant it had to come in this May. Evidently somewhere people knew it wasn’t ready - whether this goes as far as the Hortons and Graylings is another matter.

I think it worthwhile to mention that a very good analysis of the Planning Issues around the new Timetable have been nicely covered by Nigell Harris in his editorial in Rail 854 just on the bookshelves. I think it is well worth a read and use a pen to highlight all the errors in the run up to what I now call the Railway to Hell (Peterborough - Kings Cross and the core). There will be a lit of penmarks!

Vital reading to a Transport Minister and henchmen, but I doubly that they would want all the messy detail. So much easier to criticise the Railway that they created as if it were some kind of hang on from bad old BR!

 

[guilbert]

Given that there doesn't seem to be any quick fix for the driver training issues the obvious (layman's) short term answer is just to go back to the previous timetable. Obviously this is going to have a knock on effect on VTEC & EMT but I'm interested to know people's opinions on how bad it would be for the other operators if the TSGN franchise went back to the previous timetable while everyone else carried on with the current one - are we just taking about some trains being a few minutes late or complete meltdown? My thinking is 1) the intercity diagrams seem to mostly have reasonably long dwell times at each end and 2) the current timetable isn't exactly being followed at all closely which can't be great for other operators anyway.

Otherwise - would it be possible to just use the current "Thameslink" paths on the GN route but terminate them all/mostly at Kings Cross instead of going through the core? That's obviously not great for people wanting to use them south of London - not sure what happens there...

 

[Silver Cobra]

Otherwise - would it be possible to just use the current "Thameslink" paths on the GN route but terminate them all/mostly at Kings Cross instead of going through the core? That's obviously not great for people wanting to use them south of London - not sure what happens there...

Seeing as that is what they're doing on Saturdays, it would be interesting if that could also be done on weekdays if it came to it.

 

[A0]

Its called accountability.

Balderdash - it's nothing to do with accountability. And forcing somebody to resign means they have precisely no accountability moving forward.

It also shows the usual, monumental, ignorance of so many on these boards in assuming that the CEO is responsible for the minutiae of detail in any job they do - they aren't. That's why large companies aren't run by one person. And a large change was never going to be trouble-free. If in 6 months they are still having the same issues, then there may be a case for claiming there's an endemic problem - but if the CEO is fired, I'd also like to see a number of other managers and employees also publicly held to account for their actions in this.

 

[A0]

I totally disagree.

If someone is incapable of doing there job or overseeing a project, they should either be sacked or do the honourable thing and resign.

Unfortunately the modern day mantra after a cock up is, i know what went wrong, so I can put it right.
When in fact if they were capable at their job, the cock up wouldn't of happened !

Edit. Got beaten to it by bramling.

Sorry - you clearly have no experience of either managing large change projects or running a large business.

This call for "public sackings" has got completely out of hand in this country. And the CEO would not have been responsible for every task on the project - so let's get the whole project team fired if we're going down that route, right down to the administrators and planners.

 

[the Rat]

Balderdash - it's nothing to do with accountability. And forcing somebody to resign means they have precisely no accountability moving forward.

It also shows the usual, monumental, ignorance of so many on these boards in assuming that the CEO is responsible for the minutiae of detail in any job they do - they aren't. That's why large companies aren't run by one person. And a large change was never going to be trouble-free. If in 6 months they are still having the same issues, then there may be a case for claiming there's an endemic problem - but if the CEO is fired, I'd also like to see a number of other managers and employees also publicly held to account for their actions in this.

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry - you clearly have no experience of either managing large change projects or running a large business.

This call for "public sackings" has got completely out of hand in this country. And the CEO would not have been responsible for every task on the project - so let's get the whole project team fired if we're going down that route, right down to the administrators and planners.

So is Charles Horton lying or doesn’t have a clue about what is going on?

1. He came on TV on the day of timetable changes saying what a wonderful job is company is doing. These are just teething problems.

2. Lets network rail take the blame knowing the driver shortage is more significant than late planning. Why is the Cambridge- Kings Cross service so badly hit? It doesn’t require new route knowledge.

3. Company admits it has no plan until mid July - so much for the early teething problems he stated himself.

Doesn’t exactly give you confidence he can lead us out this crisis when you consider his track record. Connex?

Things are getting worse not better. You set off on a journey having no idea if it will be possible. They are making no attempt to fix things in their control such as delay repay.

Removing Horton should show that treating passengers with contempt because they have no choice but to use his company would be a good thing.

 

[Taunton]

As one who has handled cars, buses, trains, ships and aircraft, I can only offer my own opinion that aircraft are the most challenging to control properly, and to learn - and trains are the easiest. By far. Let us bear in mind that the mechanical handling of the 700s was fully trained long ago. It is the "route knowledge" that is at issue.

Aircraft crew quite straightforwardly handle, all the time, going to places which neither of the piolts have ever been to before. With passengers.

This call for "public sackings" has got completely out of hand in this country.

I agree. The "Apprentice" TV programme has a lot to answer for, where everyone whoops as people are progressively fired. It is apparently enjoyable to see other people, with vastly more experience and ability, being summarily dispatched in this manner. A bit like people used to go as spectators to hangings and cheer.

Having said that, I find Horton's attitude to be incompetent and unprofessional, with a poor grip on reality, in a style which he has allowed to permeate down through his management team into the PR releases. I imagine that Grayling must find the same. Having seen Grayling handling the questions in Parliament, I did get the impression that he is genuinely exasperated by the inability of those well-paid management who are reporting to him.

 

[stut]

I did get the impression that he is genuinely exasperated by the inability of those well-paid management who are reporting to him.

I think this is the crux of the matter when it comes to the "sack 'em" calls. There are two competing models of senior management - the US high-paid, high-risk one, where you get the rewards, but quickly get moved on if you fail to deliver. Or, there's the older fashioned European ones, where the pay is more moderate, but the position there to ensure longer-term stability.

The UK's residual old boys' club is good at trying to get the best of both worlds - the US-style high pay, with the European-style security (or at least the "never mind, old chap, here's another one for you to try"). That doesn't deliver good results.

So if you're putting yourself out there, saying "I'm worth this massive salary (which is the tip of the iceberg, the tax-avoiding rewards are much higher) because I will deliver" then you have to be prepared to face the chop when you don't.

 

[WeGoAgain]

...Let us bear in mind that the mechanical handling of the 700s was fully trained long ago. It is the "route knowledge" that is at issue.

If you're suggesting that all the necessary Drivers were trained on 700's, you are very mistaken, specifically regarding the GN side.

 

[Stampy]

12.54 is showing as cancelled on NRE

Indeed it was, only found out when I got to PBO station...

Having scanned through most of the posts since my quoted one above - i thought i'd describe the day I had.

----------------------------​

Got to Peterborough station at about 1240, to find that the train I planned to catch 9J35 (the 1254 Thameslink train to Horsham) had been cancelled.

Passengers for Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Arlesey, Hitchin & Stevenage were advised to take the Replacement bus outside!!!!

Asked for advice on how to get to Gatwick Airport, and was told to catch the late running 1E08 (due PBO 1246, running 8 late) into King's Cross and then walk to St. Pancras and catch a Thameslink to Gatwick from there..

Funnily enough, whilst walking from the Car Park to the station - i got talking to a chap in a Great Northern uniform about how much "fun" he was having with the new timetable..... Turned out that HE was the driver of the 1254 who had NO train to drive as the unit had been cancelled on it's outward journey from Horsham.

He then joined me on Platform 3 to catch the 1246 to King's Cross as he'd been advised to get to Finsbury Park as a relief driver.... (more of that later)

Got to King's Cross 6 mins late, and walked to St Pancras - and straight onto a Gatwick Airport train (via London Bridge).

Got to Gatwick Airport, went to get something to eat, and then spotted a train back... 9J48 1525 Horsham - Peterborough (which was due to leave Gatwick at 1549) so planned to get that back to Finsbury Park.

9J48 rolled into Gatwick at 1551 and we left 3 minutes late.

No problems on the journey at all, we came past London Bridge and into the ATO section, through "the core" great - and then came to a grinding halt in Canal Tunnels (bearing in mind we were now 9 minutes late) - I presume we'd lost our "path" into Finsbury Park...

Held there for a couple of minutes, we then C R A W L E D into Finsbury Park (now 11 minutes late) - where I got off the train (as I was heading to a Theatre in Leicester Square for a show last night).

As I got off, there was an announcement that we would be held here for a "short while" whilst we awaited a relief driver.....

The fun thing being that the train was already signalled out onto the main line from platform 6 (was due into Platform 7), so in the distance I could see a HST set held at a signal just south of Finsbury Park waiting to go North..

The train i'd just got off was sat there 5 minutes (blocking trains going North, as it was STILL signalled out on to the main line) - when a driver (who was "on the cushions" volunteered to take the train forward - see tweet below)

​

He then got into the drivers seat and the train pulled out onto the main line - followed by 3 SLOW moving Inter city trains that had stacked up behind him...

Talking to one of the station hands at Finsbury Park - he said that it's a regular occurrence at the minute, awaiting relief drivers there in BOTH directions.....

Utter chaos!!!


Travelling home on the 2300 train from King's Cross back to Peterborough, i saw loads of 700's stored at Hornsey, Welwyn Garden City and Peterborough itself!!!

 

[OwenB]

HE was the driver of the 1254 who had NO train to drive as the unit had been cancelled on it's outward journey from Horsham.

Classic Govia bringing the bantz to our commutes.

 

[guilbert]

Seeing as that is what they're doing on Saturdays, it would be interesting if that could also be done on weekdays if it came to it.

It has to be better than blocking a line at Finsbury Park while they wait for a driver anyway.

 

[Steve Harris]

Sorry - you clearly have no experience of either managing large change projects or running a large business..

I never said i did, so please dont be so insulting !

However, if the CEO isn't capable in finding out who in his 'team' is incapable of doing the job they are employed to do and sacking them, then im afraid that lack of balls shows that the management policy is not working. And as the overall man in charge that makes the CEO culpable too. So yes, in that case he should go!

It's either that or we have the 'new way' of doing things where there is no accountability and people could get killed and no one goes to prison or gets sacked or fined.

I know what system i prefer and that is my right in a free speach society Sir.

 

[Failed Unit]

If Charles Horton doesn’t get sacked you would hope he was unemployable after this.

So Mr Horton. Let’s look at your CV

1. Connex
2. GTR

What did you do well at GTR? I see customer satisfaction was down before railplan 2020. Oh the Southern reforms?

It does make me wonder what incentive GTR have to fix this. People just don’t want to use the train for leisure journeys now. You can’t plan it is just are you feeling lucky punk? But it is us (or DfT) that is taking the hit in revenue. Are GTR taking and pain financially?

Just looked at old Thameslink, it has massive gaps as well on the Bedford route. What Horton is saying doesn’t add up. The enquiry will be interesting. I don’t think anyone will come out of this well. I suspect NR will not be looking as bad as GTR / Grayling want them to look.

 

[The Box Photter]

I think this is the crux of the matter when it comes to the "sack 'em" calls. There are two competing models of senior management - the US high-paid, high-risk one, where you get the rewards, but quickly get moved on if you fail to deliver. Or, there's the older fashioned European ones, where the pay is more moderate, but the position there to ensure longer-term stability.

The UK's residual old boys' club is good at trying to get the best of both worlds - the US-style high pay, with the European-style security (or at least the "never mind, old chap, here's another one for you to try"). That doesn't deliver good results.

So if you're putting yourself out there, saying "I'm worth this massive salary (which is the tip of the iceberg, the tax-avoiding rewards are much higher) because I will deliver" then you have to be prepared to face the chop when you don't.

Horton's track record is perennially one of failure. He has the reverse Midas touch. It's entirely reasonable to call for the removal of both him, Grayling and Hendy, since they get paid the big bucks, the buck stops with them. It was their collective responsibility to oversee the Thameslink programme and would no doubt have made sure they reaped the plaudits (and relevant performance bonuses) had it been implemented smoothly.

If the forthcoming enquiry reveals that they were warned by their subordinates that there were fundamental problems looming on the horizon, but they pushed on regardless, for whatever reason, ignorance, hubris or sheer incompetence, then all the more reason to remove them and prevent them from acheiving such influential positions again in the future.

In financial services there is a requirement for key players in financial businesses to pass a "fit and proper persons test", the same priniciples should apply in all business, politics and public service.

If the enquiry shows that further down the management chain there was also a loack of ability to identify the upcoming omishambles, then those people should be escorted from the relevant building with their posessions in a cardboard box as well.

It isn't rocket science.

 

[GoatSarah]

And six out of eight trains heading north to Peterborough this afternoon cancelled.

It is getting worse not better.

Ah well, another days free travel. I joked with the ticket office staff that there was no point selling me a ticket as they would only be giving the money back.

It’s getting worse at Cambridge too. Much worse. Last week a few Brighton services were getting through. Now it seems they’re almost completely extinct. No idea how they expect to train drivers on a route that essentially doesn’t exist.

Went to KGX from Cambridge yesterday. They turned at least 3 consecutive “fasts” into semi fasts, presumably because the Brighton service doesn’t exist.

The result is that we have not only lost the daily Brighton service we had earlier this year: we’ve also lost our Kings Cross expresses that we’ve had since the 90s.

And it seems to get worse with each passing day.