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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Skimble19

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Rough service plan for GN for today:

Cambridge to Brighton withdrawn - 1TXX services to stop additionally at Royston and Letchworth.

Peterborough to Horsham to run, should there be issues then stop orders will be put onto other services to cover gaps where possible.

Buses on standby.
 
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sefton

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Can't wait for the 24tph (yipee more chaos). In their bubble world that would work but not in reality. They can't even get this new timetable right...

I am not. Platforms A and B at St Pancras are struggling to cope now.

Actually you raise an interesting point. I wonder if they will have a queuing system in place when the service collapses. A large concourse like kings cross struggles. Yes the load is spread but I can see some of those platforms getting dangerous.

I was there on Friday afternoon when the service fell over and there were very big queues struggling to get through the gateline. The platform was very full with people jostling for space on the platform to be near the doors and the complication of the mixture of Thameslink trains and Great Northern trains going through.

As an aside the station staff making announcements were being complete idiots with two making different announcements at the same time so you could hear neither of the them. They were also using imprecise language such as "the next train is the service going direct to Peterborough", with some customers taking that to mean it was skipping the intermediate stops, which it wasn't. The light relief is listening to the platform announcers trying to pronounce Arlesey.

In the mornings the gateline is struggling to cope with the numbers arriving on trains as there are too few gates, and they now have to have a town crier constantly shouting for people with suitcases (and there are a lot) to move over to the left. The queuing space between the top of the escalators and the gateline is not very large so if numbers build up you risk a situation where the escalators are delivering people but there is nowhere to get off.

Rough service plan for GN for today:
Peterborough to Horsham to run

So far out of the 10 trains due to run to/from Peterborough 7 have been cancelled. Looks like its heading for another "its all gone tits up" day for GNR.
 

Kanrakuq

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Six of the next eight trains to arrive at Arlesey are cancelled. I am certain a seventh, the 0754 from Peterborough, will be too, although probably not until five minutes after it's supposed to have departed.

This is the worst thing, and TL can't put the blame in any other court. If you can only run a train every two hours, even if you can only run one every three hours, fine, that's very annoying and amateurish, but it's nothing compared to this, and at least the timetable will be correct. The current situation is absurd. Whose idea is it to timetable something so obviously impossible to fulfil at present?

Edit: Oh, actually the 0704 isn't cancelled, just it is skip stopping St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade and Arlesey. What? Pretty sure people there would rather a 10 minutes late train than waiting another 90 minutes for something that will probably get cancelled anyway. And this isn't going north, this is a train skip stopping on its way into London.

Edit 2: Now it's arrived two minutes early at Stevenage. Yeah, I bet it has. Easier, this train lark, when you don't have to worry about stopping for passengers.
 
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Hadders

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I wanted to get the 0732 from Stevenage. Checked it last night and it was showing as cancelled. Next best is the 0747 which I checked when I got up this morning - showing as running.

Checked again before I left the house and it’s cancelled. Mad rush to get the 0740 semi fast (which should be overtaken by the 0747).

This is a complete and utter shambles.
 

jopsuk

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I was thinking of going (from Cambridge) to watch the bike racing in Stevenage today. Might have cycled down, but didn't want to ride both ways, would have got the train back.

Can't trust that there will be any trains though
 

Hadders

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0747, 0810, 0817, 0832 and 0840 departures from Stevenage to London all showing as cancelled.

A full hours worth of trains cancelled.

The only train heading to London is the 0828 Moorgate service, if it runs.

It’s never, ever been this bad. Including the dark days post Hatfield in 2000.
 

Downthelane

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Same point as yesterday these cancellations are nothing to do with the new timetable.

Something else is causing them, either GN have over estimated drivers willing to do OT or don't have enough contracted to work bank holidays.

This situation is worse than last week when it was expected there would be some teething problems with the new timetable.

Not running a reliable service at weekends is a disgrace.
 
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Well on a positive note,for the first time the Rainham to Luton train has been running and with one exception so far on time.
 

ComUtoR

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...or don't have enough contracted to work bank holidays.

I think that every Driver is contracted to work Bank Holidays. Can't speak for freight Drivers but I haven't yet seen a TOC who doesn't have it as a contractual obligation.
 

sefton

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It is not helping that with the number of cancelled trains that National Rail Enquiries is not being very helpful. For example St Neots to Welwyn Garden City it shows this.

2018-05-28.png

and if you ask for alternative trains it shows the first train after the 08:45 is the 11:48.


2018-05-28 (1).png

It ignores the 10:18 (which isn't cancelled yet) changing at Hitchin onto the 11:04 (which also isn't cancelled yet) to get you there at 11:20. So if these trains exist in the timetable (and are not cancelled yet) why on earth does National Rail Enquires show a 2 1/2 hour delay rather than a 1 hour delay?
 

Downthelane

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I think that every Driver is contracted to work Bank Holidays. Can't speak for freight Drivers but I haven't yet seen a TOC who doesn't have it as a contractual obligation.

Ok so if that is the case why are GN cancelling most services yesterday and again today?

Something is wrong about this, there is no engineering work and supposedly drivers are obliged to work BH's and weekends.

But this isn't happening, why?
 
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Just got on a Thameslink train from Abbeywood. Yes there all shiny and new, but who's the idiot that designed them with a silver bar sticking out by the window seats, making it impossible to sit without putting your foot on it.Would be very uncomfortable if the train was full.
 

Hadders

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Just got on a Thameslink train from Abbeywood. Yes there all shiny and new, but who's the idiot that designed them with a silver bar sticking out by the window seats, making it impossible to sit without putting your foot on it.Would be very uncomfortable if the train was full.

We’ve had a thread running on this for years. Blame the Department for Transport who specified the trains.
 

BluePenguin

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I found this video on YouTube which goes through the roll out of new Thamelink services and the times and dates we can expect them in the near future. Some of these new services I have never heard of and nobody has mentioned so far.

Sevenoaks services will be extended to Welwyn Garden Ciry and services from Ashford International which currently run into Victoria will be extended to Cambridge! Exciting times ahead. Of course, anyone from Sevenoaks who does want to go to Welwyn would get the fast train to London Bridge and change whilst those from Ashford wanting Cambridge would surely get the high-speed service to St Pancras to join a Thamelink service from there.

From the looks of it there will be no more trains going into King's Cross any more after 2019? If this is the case then I suppose it will open up a lot of capacity at King's Cross for long-distance trains which would also then be able to use slow tracks whilst what were precious Great Northern services are in the south out of the way.

 
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Failed Unit

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Ok so if that is the case why are GN cancelling most services yesterday and again today?

Something is wrong about this, there is no engineering work and supposedly drivers are obliged to work BH's and weekends.

But this isn't happening, why?

I agree something isn’t right here. The London Kings Cross - Cambridge services is nearly 100% cancelled today (again).

Not sure if any could answer this but if the allocated unit was a 365 would things be as bad?

We are luck at WGC we have the inners which are running ok. But many stations have nothing and would probably prefer an hourly service that runs rather than the lucky dip we have now.
 

Failed Unit

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I found this video on YouTube which goes through the roll out of new Thamelink services and the times and dates we can expect them in the near future. Some of these new services I have never heard of and nobody has mentioned so far.

Sevenoaks services will be extended to Welwyn Garden Ciry and services from Ashford International which currently run into Victoria will be extended to Cambridge! Exciting times ahead. Of course, anyone from Sevenoaks who does want to go to Welwyn would get the fast train to London Bridge and change whilst those from Ashford wanting Cambridge would surely get the high-speed service to St Pancras to join a Thamelink service from there.

From the looks of it there will be no more trains going into King's Cross any more after 2019? If this is the case then I suppose it will open up a lot of capacity at King's Cross for long-distance trains which would also then be able to use slow tracks whilst what were precious Great Northern services are in the south out of the way.

The Maidstone - Welwyn services don’t start until 2020. (If ever)
 

BluePenguin

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The Maidstone - Welwyn services don’t start until 2020. (If ever)
But there isn't any mention of that service anywhere? The Ashford - Cambridge service is due next year although it doesn't look terribly useful as they planning to merge two stopping service through the core and that is it.
 

LowLevel

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Ok so if that is the case why are GN cancelling most services yesterday and again today?

Something is wrong about this, there is no engineering work and supposedly drivers are obliged to work BH's and weekends.

But this isn't happening, why?

Why are you assuming this is the case if you clearly don't know. I don't know either but I do know you won't find many if any safety critical railway staff who are entitled to bank holidays off unless they happen to be their actual day off.

But let's hypothetically assume you're right (which you aren't) and picture the phone call to someone to work overtime:

'Hi Bob. It's rosters. Would you like to work your rest day?'

'Hello rosters. So we have a timetable that is a work of fiction, I may be turning up to work trains that don't appear, I may work trains and then not be able get back because my next workings have disappeared like hot buttered popcorn in a hungry cinema, and throughout the process I'm likely to have people shouting at me and I won't know how to answer them when they are.

I tell you what rosters, no thanks - I think I'm going to do the garden/go down the pub/stab myself in the eyes with rusty needles while I get ready to deal with it all on my rostered shifts'.

Back in the real world VTEC have gotten to be sick of their staff not being able to get to work in London so have run an 0440 additional for Peterborough, Huntingdon, Biggleswade and Stevenage to London today and with GTR cancelling both services bang on cue VTEC allowed passengers to travel as well.
 

Failed Unit

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But there isn't any mention of that service anywhere? The Ashford - Cambridge service is due next year although it doesn't look terribly useful as they planning to merge two stopping service through the core and that is it.
Sorry mixed to services together.

Cambridge- Ashford via Maidstone not expected until 2020.
Welwyn- Sevenoaks peak - May 2019.
 

Ianno87

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But there isn't any mention of that service anywhere? The Ashford - Cambridge service is due next year although it doesn't look terribly useful as they planning to merge two stopping service through the core and that is it.

Ashford/Maidstone will actually be relatively quick on the south side - IIRC the plan is for them to be non-stop London Bridge-Swanley. Could see it becoming far more popular than the existing Victoria services.
 

Kanrakuq

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Was the Peterborough-Horsham timetable for today due to revert to Peterborough trains going to Kings Cross only after 9am, or have they just given up?
 

Julia

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Was the Peterborough-Horsham timetable for today due to revert to Peterborough trains going to Kings Cross only after 9am, or have they just given up?

RTT says it's still all due to come through the core. But just looking at St Neots in the down direction, after 9J08 (0745) which looks normal everything was cancelled until 9J20 (1045) which first registered on the system at Belle Isle - so presumably started back at KGX. And OpenTrainTimes maps show nothing at all moving in the down direction at the moment, neither 9Jxx nor 1Pxx. Given up, or making it up on the fly, one or other.

I suppose I should be thankful that it's made consideration of a future job move back to London a *very* easy decision, at least for the near future.
 

whoosh

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Quite a long post, sorry!

Allegations of Unions and Drivers making things awkward.

I'll deal with this one first:
I am no fan of the current structure and governance of the Industry as my recent posts will have indicated. However I cant believe all of the TSGN shambles is solely down to the franchisee or its client. ASLEF are very good at conducting stalling tactics in negotiations and prevaricating over recruitment of new DI's, agreeing route learning norms and material which ultimately ties management up in knots until they know longer know which way is up. Final agreements are only reached at the 11th hour thus limiting the implementation phase to weeks instead of months and offering guaranteed chaos to the travelling public and the tax payer alike. ASLEF rarely say NO but more importantly they hardly ever say YES either. I know this because in a past life I was there and know how toxic GN/TL industrial relations are. This is no fault of any individual but as a consequence of a philosophical hatred of privatisation.

Please explain how ASLEF, "prevaricate over recruitment of DI's".
Everyone knows there needs to be more DI's, especially the Union, who's own Trainee Driver members have at times been kept waiting for several months on Trainee wages until one becomes available for them. The company realise that DI's are needed and there have been regular vacancies for Driving Instructors posted, with on the GN side rarely if ever, the number of applicants going over double figures on each occasion, despite being freely open to anyone with the requisite years of experience. This is despite the GN side Instructors having a lucrative financial reward until the rôle becomes harmonised with TL Driver Trainers in October.

Route Learning norms: The 'normal' amount of time/trips needed to learn a particular route, with regard to complexity, and risks etc.
These were agreed in April - quite some time after route learning commenced. If ASLEF had wished to be difficult, they could've objected to the release of anyone to route learn until they had been agreed.
That didn't happen.

Instead the local reps offered to assist with picking who was to go route learning, only for the management to initially decline the offer and pick themselves. Unfortunately, when choosing at one depot they didn't take account of the depot's one large link being split into two smaller links and picked two drivers to learn a route that they wouldn't be working (as they were in a link that will work to a different destination).
Again, ASLEF could've been unhelpful and let the two drivers be released, and waited for the management to realise their error, having two drivers effectively being sent out 'on a jolly' knowing they'd be learning a route they wouldn't be working, pointlessly.
That didn't happen.
ASLEF pointed out the error, which was perhaps an understandable one as the change to two links at that depot were recent, even though their initial offer of assistance had been declined, and there was no delay to any route learning because of it.

It was also agreed that with the reduction in size of certain depots on both TL and GN, that the usual 'locker day', off roster, to clear out your locker when you transfer depots, would be a day's payment instead, which would stop literally tens and tens of drivers not being productive last week, as Blackfriars closed, Bedford, Kings Cross and Hitchin all reduced in size.
Why would a union with an axe to grind agree to help things go more smoothly? It would've been easy for them to just say no.


A few opportunities there for stalling, which could've been easily taken up. But weren't. Most probably because the Union's members are on the front line of being put in awkward situations of trainloads of people being diverted or turfed off trains when the timetable doesn't run as planned.



As for allegations of some sort of unofficial "Don't work overtime lads," I can tell you that's nonsense. Overtime during route learning has been encouraged. There is a Rest Day Work sanction that will run for the duration of this pay deal (until the next pay review in October 2020), and there is an enhanced scheme overlaid on this until this December (but you have to give four weeks notice of your availability to be eligible for this).
Sundays are at time and 55% - a good incentive.

Unfortunately, drivers didn't get four weeks notice of their roster that started in May though - it was only about a week, so other than the usual suspects who like their overtime, anyone else has been hampered a little in being able to plan what extra days they are available.
Bear in mind this is half term week, which was bad enough not knowing what days you were to work and which you weren't with short notice. Some on here seem to think train drivers should ask their wives questions like this, and that that is perfectly reasonable!:
"Shall I work an extra rest day in half term Dear, even though I can't tell you yet which days off I'm supposed to have?"


I expect conversations like this one though, DID take place in early May:

"Are you booked to work the first Sunday of half term?"

"I don't know yet."

"Because you're booked to do a late afternoon that would be okay, but a morning wouldn't work for us."

"I don't know yet!!"

"You'll have to put 'Not Available' then."


Cue a late afternoon being uncovered as plans at home fill up the whole day, and it WAS a late afternoon in the new roster.

Bank Holiday Monday.
No diagrams were issued until - well I don't actually know when. Very late indeed.
Bank Holiday roster is put up 14 days ahead, and as no diagrams had been issued in time for this, a Saturday service was assumed and drivers booked to Saturday sign on/sign off times. Because of the problems with Network Rail, it seems it's easier at such a late stage to run a Monday to Friday service with certain trains/groups of trains cancelled, as it was far too late to replan the timetable and resubmit it.
Consequently drivers are being told when they sign on, what job or part of a job to cover that fits the hours they were booked.
Add into that the on going problems of route conducting being resourced itself, and the snowballing effects of late running or cancellations.
 
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You spoke too soon! Plenty of cancellations to Rainham after 0900
Yes I'm not surprised.Im so glad I don't live in Higham anymore.They have been completely screwed over.I really can't see why the high speed can't stop at Higham.Theres so much station time for the high speed that it wouldn't delay the service.Im presuming that south eastern doesn't care, not running the service anymore
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Unfortunately, drivers didn't get four weeks notice of their roster that started in May though - it was only about a week, so other than the usual suspects who like their overtime, anyone else has been hampered a little in being able to plan what extra days they are available.

Extract from the interesting post above.

With this in mind, is it a fair expectation that the major disruption will last for the first three weeks of the timetable and then settle down a bit?
 

talldave

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Yes I'm not surprised.Im so glad I don't live in Higham anymore.They have been completely screwed over.I really can't see why the high speed can't stop at Higham.Theres so much station time for the high speed that it wouldn't delay the service.Im presuming that south eastern doesn't care, not running the service anymore
Nobody appears to care, Southeastern, GTR, DfT. I'm surprised we've not seen more "direct" action - a few dozen protestors sitting in the way of SE's prized HS service would soon focus attention on the problems. People will only tolerate so much of this "bedding in" crap before they crack.
 

NorthKent1989

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Nobody appears to care, Southeastern, GTR, DfT. I'm surprised we've not seen more "direct" action - a few dozen protestors sitting in the way of SE's prized HS service would soon focus attention on the problems. People will only tolerate so much of this "bedding in" crap before they crack.

I think people in Medway and Cambridge and Peterborough are expected to put up and shut up and not to complain our concerns don’t matter, says the folks over in St. Albans or inner suburban London.........

I say we should demand a return to the old timetable as this is shambolic

Thameslink is now renamed to PhlegmStink in my books
 
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