Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

Some stations have been told to remove the engineering poster too, obviously to hide that there isn't any.
They lie to staff too - a pathetic example from Thursday is the weekly staff newsletter. This week there are a dozen 'quotes' from passengers posted on Twitter. All of which are massively positive about the new timetable. Sickening that they expect us to believe this rubbish.

"Life changing. Utterly amazing" could be interpreted two ways.

 

[jon0844]

On the other hand the journey planner has trains showing up as cancelled which aren't even in today's timetable! e.g. the journey planner shows that the 0951 from KGX to CMB was cancelled - when that train doesn't even appear in today's timetable (or in RTT).

I realise that it's probably an unavoidable consequence of changing the timetable so late in the day, but it's rather unfortunate.

EDIT: Although a quick glance at the subsequent trains in the journey planner shows that they do correspond to the emergency timetable. So maybe it's been updated now. But still, I think the moral for those travelling today is to take the data on the journey planner with a pinch of salt. Certainly consult the PDFs too.

They didn't delete the trains properly. They marked them cancelled. As such they showed up in apps and on platform screens. Eventually putting all screens into disruption mode fixed the platform screens, but still left people seeing a whole load of non-existent service as cancelled.

When you've already got a PR nightmare, you hardly help yourself by showing fictitious cancelled trains!

 

[Failed Unit]

There is a mention on engineering work posters for work this bank holiday weekend. I am not sure what it actually is, but can say that there really was engineering work planned some time ago for this weekend.

It doesn't seem related to the 'tear up the timetable' plans that operated today and will until Monday. I do know that there are some 30-40 buses for Hatfield running tomorrow evening to lessen the impact of up to 10,000 festival goers all wanting to get back to London between 2200 and midnight!

How they have a PPM of 81% today is beyond belief. Is if because the trains were cancelled yesterday so therefore don’t count?

 

[jon0844]

Nobody is pretending nobody benefits from the through journey opportunities.

However, these opportunities come with a cost - a substantial risk to performance. It’s not reasonable for this to be imposed on everyone who has happily used the service for many years and built plans around a reliable service.

Whilst the so-called teething issues no doubt will be worked through eventually, there will still be a legacy of unreliability. Based on this week it’s quite clear this unreliability will be severe at times, as the increased risk and impact of late running and incidents causes reactionary delays to spiral.

Just run a half and half core and non-core service and everyone will be happy. As posted elsewhere, I suspect this will be the eventual result anyway. Those that want the through journeys, unreliability and uncomfortable cramped seats can have it, and those that don’t want to buy in to this don’t have to.

How about an off-peak service of:
1tph KX to Cambridge semi-fast
1tph KX to Peterborough semi-fast
1tph KX to Kings Lynn fast
1tph Brighton to Cambridge semi-fast
1tph Horsham to Peterborough semi-fast
1tph Gatwick to Ely fast
1tph Maidstone to Letchworth stopping
1tph KX to Cambridge North stopping

On a different note, are there any 365s out today? I note from RTTT many of the Peterborough services are originating from Nene sidings, and are booked into the suburban platforms at KX. There aren’t any Reduced length undesiros booked to finish at Peterborough now, so this would point towards 365s or 387s and only 6x 387s stable at Peterborough which doesn’t make up much.

I saw a 8 car 365 out today. A class 1 Peterborough to King's Cross service that stopped at WGC (booked 1946, arrived around 2015)! WGC hasn't seen any 365s since the timetable change AFAIK.

 

[jon0844]

Oh dear! Modern Ralways for June is just out, and the title page story has the splash heading "Thameslink Triumph".

Again, that could be taken two ways depending on your mood!

 

[jon0844]

But staff standing around not appearing to be doing very much in the current chaos isn't likely to sit very well with passengers.

Gateline staff will stand around and work when a train comes in, or to help with people who are arriving to get a train. During disruption they'll likely go into customer service mode and stop doing ticket checks.

Many stations outside the zones have to deal with a lot of people who arrive wanting to pay with Oyster/credit or debit cards, as well as your usual chancers and those who double up. Many gateline staff can also do ramp assists, help people out of the station and other duties.

In between trains, there's not really any issue with them looking at their phones - as long as they will stop immediately if required.

 

[radamfi]

Does the revised weekend timetable help in training more drivers?

 

[Busaholic]

I suppose the physical infrastructure part is a triumph; it's just the operational overlay that's one of the worst disasters ever in terms of service implementation and customer relations. At this point in time it looks like like £16Billion down the drain, which could have reopened quite a few mis-closed lines and stations and genuinely benefited people.

But hey-ho, we are where we are and perhaps with a change of operator (sooner rather than later) and some inspired planning and execution we may yet achieve a worthwhile and reliable RER-type operation. What this now needs is a project team of the calibre of Crossrail, HS1 or HS2 to grab it by the spherical bits and convert the debacle into the aforementioned triumph.

RER would never have accepted the bi-mode change in the core of the operation, at least without another two tracks being available for diversionary purposes. Without the extra pair of tracks between Blackfriars and Farringdon the connection up to the King's Cross lines should never have been attempted - days when it works will inevitably be at a premium, even when/if the operator actually recruits/trains sufficient drivers. Regrettably, utterly predictable.

 

[Antman]

Gateline staff will stand around and work when a train comes in, or to help with people who are arriving to get a train. During disruption they'll likely go into customer service mode and stop doing ticket checks.

Many stations outside the zones have to deal with a lot of people who arrive wanting to pay with Oyster/credit or debit cards, as well as your usual chancers and those who double up. Many gateline staff can also do ramp assists, help people out of the station and other duties.

In between trains, there's not really any issue with them looking at their phones - as long as they will stop immediately if required.

I think the main point a previous poster was making was that staff standing around laughing and joking at a time of disruption probably aren't helping themselves, they don't have to look all doom and gloom but a bit of empathy towards disgruntled passengers might go a long way.

 

[Skimble19]

Not sure if it's been posted on here yet or not but Monday is also expected to be on the Emergency Timetable, based upon the Saturday service. Final decision to be made tomorrow.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not sure if it's been posted on here yet or not but Monday is also expected to be on the Emergency Timetable, based upon the Saturday service. Final decision to be made tomorrow.

I was expecting that to be a certainty based how bad the last 7 days are. Is Monday a normal working day as far as drivers are concerned or is it volunteers only again?

 

[Skimble19]

I think the main point a previous poster was making was that staff standing around laughing and joking at a time of disruption probably aren't helping themselves, they don't have to look all doom and gloom but a bit of empathy towards disgruntled passengers might go a long way.

When you've spent the past week being shouted at, verbally abused, sworn at, racially abused, threatened with physical violence, seen your colleagues burst into tears and god knows what else I'm sure you'll feel plenty of empathy towards passengers....

It works both ways... Not saying I agree with it but i think it's understandable that following the unprecedented torrents of abuse staff have received this week their sympathy levels may have dipped a bit.

That said anyone who talks to staff like human beings will be fully assisted to the best of staff ability, but please understand it's very limited what staff can do at present.

 

[bionic]

RER would never have accepted the bi-mode change in the core of the operation, at least without another two tracks being available for diversionary purposes. Without the extra pair of tracks between Blackfriars and Farringdon the connection up to the King's Cross lines should never have been attempted - days when it works will inevitably be at a premium, even when/if the operator actually recruits/trains sufficient drivers. Regrettably, utterly predictable.

Is there a reason why they couldn't run the wires as far as Elephant/London Bridge as a get out of jail card? It did occur to me that the changeover in the core was asking for trouble. Considering the money chucked at London Bridge, 700s and the Thameslink project in general you would have thought it a drop in the ocean to run the wires another mile or two. Presumably someone will come on shortly and give a valid reason why not!

 

[jon0844]

When you've spent the past week being shouted at, verbally abused, sworn at, racially abused, threatened with physical violence, seen your colleagues burst into tears and god knows what else I'm sure you'll feel plenty of empathy towards passengers....

It works both ways... Not saying I agree with it but i think it's understandable that following the unprecedented torrents of abuse staff have received this week their sympathy levels may have dipped a bit.

That said anyone who talks to staff like human beings will be fully assisted to the best of staff ability, but please understand it's very limited at present.

Some of it may be Gallows humour. These people still have to manage their way through an 8 or 12 hour shift.

 

[bramling]

When you've spent the past week being shouted at, verbally abused, sworn at, racially abused, threatened with physical violence, seen your colleagues burst into tears and god knows what else I'm sure you'll feel plenty of empathy towards passengers....

It works both ways... Not saying I agree with it but i think it's understandable that following the unprecedented torrents of abuse staff have received this week their sympathy levels may have dipped a bit.

That said anyone who talks to staff like human beings will be fully assisted to the best of staff ability, but please understand it's very limited what staff can do at present.

I really feel for the staff, especially station staff and the twitter team. None of this shambles is their fault at all -- and passengers should be intelligent enough to realise that.

However unfortunately I can understand people being at their wits end with this predictable farce. I deliberately took 6 weeks leave because I just knew this would happen, which fortunately happened to roughly coincide with when I wanted to be off anyway. My neighbour is fuming - he's been late for work every day this week and late home, and stuck at Stevenage for ages after his train was modified to omit stops. This is the unfortunate reality of Thameslink, and the GN simply can't sustain the challenges Thameslink brings to its smooth operation. The sooner the dream ends the better - it's already in total tatters anyway.

 

[Skimble19]

I really feel for the staff, especially station staff and the twitter team. None of this shambles is their fault at all -- and passengers should be intelligent enough to realise that.

However unfortunately I can understand people being at their wits end with this predictable farce. I deliberately took 6 weeks leave because I just knew this would happen, which fortunately happened to roughly coincide with when I wanted to be off anyway. My neighbour is fuming - he's been late for work every day this week and late home, and stuck at Stevenage for ages after his train was modified to omit stops. This is the unfortunate reality of Thameslink, and the GN simply can't sustain the challenges Thameslink brings to its smooth operation. The sooner the dream ends the better - it's already in total tatters anyway.

Don't worry the staff are also at their wits end and want this sorted as quickly as possible. A lot of staff also use the train to get to and from work and are often also finding themselves stuck at the end of very stressful shifts so the majority do full understand why passengers are angry - they need to shout at the right people though, not those who are there to help them.

 

[bramling]

Don't worry the staff are also at their wits end and want this sorted as quickly as possible. A lot of staff also use the train to get to and from work and are often also finding themselves stuck at the end of very stressful shifts so the majority do full understand why passengers are angry - they need to shout at the right people though, not those who are there to help them.

Fully agree. In this instance I suspect the best outlet is probably MPs - as the whole sham is ultimately DFT-led.

The sooner we drop this failed attempt at playing trains the sooner things can start moving forward (or backwards!). How many 365s are still at Ely?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a reason why they couldn't run the wires as far as Elephant/London Bridge as a get out of jail card? It did occur to me that the changeover in the core was asking for trouble. Considering the money chucked at London Bridge, 700s and the Thameslink project in general you would have thought it a drop in the ocean to run the wires another mile or two. Presumably someone will come on shortly and give a valid reason why not!

Yes, it has been explained on here before, I think, that 25kV on the Thameslink lines and 750V on the lines into Charing Cross in close proximity wouldn't mix very well.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, it has been explained on here before, I think, that 25kV on the Thameslink lines and 750V on the lines into Charing Cross in close proximity wouldn't mix very well.

That's an extension in one direction as opposed to the other - would exactly the same apply in the other direction?

 

[Roy Badami]

I see they've cancelled the 2314 (the last fast train) from Cambridge. It's not the last train, though, just the last fast train, so I guess they can get away with it without too much stick. The 2214 was cancelled too. Fortunately I was aiming for the 2244, which is running - although not non-stop as in the emergency timetable - it's stopping at (I think) RYS, LET, HIT and SVG. My outward journey today (the 1242 from KGX) likewise at the last minute change from being direct to CBG to stopping at SVG, HIT, LET and RYS.

I don't really object to dropping the idea of running non-stop services if there's limited ability to run the timetable - indeed it makes sense to do so IMHO. But what on earth happened? What's the point of publishing an emergency timetable if you then decide to run a rather different emergency timetable from the one published? And why were they struggling so much to run a timetable today that really didn't look that challenging?

 

[Roy Badami]

Not sure if it's been posted on here yet or not but Monday is also expected to be on the Emergency Timetable, based upon the Saturday service. Final decision to be made tomorrow.

Thanks for the info. But Monday's really not that interesting, being a bank holiday. I think the big question is: will Tuesday be on the emergency tmetable?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

deleted post

 

[AM9]

That's an extension in one direction as opposed to the other - would exactly the same apply in the other direction?

Not quite true. The southernmost limit of 25kV is the southern end of City Thameslink platforms (i.e. atthe bottom of the ramp up to Blackfriars. The northernmost limit of the 750VDC 3rd rail is the northern end of Farringdon platforms. Between those points, on both tracks which are signalled for Bi-Di anyway, the dual powering is delivered through switchgear that apllies the appropriate earthing for whichever power supply a train passing along it is using. Thus a southbound train that couldn't swap to DC at Farringdon could continue under ac to City Thameslink. The reverse is also possible for northbound trains.
Could the DC be extended further north or ac further south, - well anything is possible but not necessarily desireable even ignoring the cost. Extending the DC on a 3rd rail system would increase the power supply requirements and involve additional feed points as the number of trains supported by the ECTS would exceed the maximum for a single feed when each train is rated at 3.3MW (8-car) or 5MW (12-car) particularly with the ruling gradients in the core being steeper than 1:30. In theory, it would be possible to take the DC to Kentish Town platforms and the Belle Isle portal of the Canal Tunnels as only dual voltage trains can use the core.
Southbound, the situation is different. As class 465 DC only trains operate into the Blackfriars bay platforms 3 & 4, it would be difficult to carry the OLE any further south thanplatforms 1 & 2 unless services north of Elephant and Castle were restricted to class 700s and mabe dual voltage Electrostars.
The problem for the line to London Bridge is that ac OLE must stop before the ramp joins the Charing Cross lines as although the northern pair is normally reserved for Thameslink core traffic, it might be necessary to send trains to/from Charing Cross for operational reasons. Most of the trains there are DC only. Dual powering those lines would be difficult as they are on a continuous viaduct were segregation of earths would probably be prone to signalling interaction despite immunity issues.

Be interesting to hear if any power lines come down with knock on effects for tomorrow's service with tonight's thunderstorm in full swing...

I think poor condition low cost MKIIb OLE used on the MML & ECML routes is much more prone to failure through use than from electric storms. High wind are of course an issue but the storm here now doesn'thave much of that.

 

[jon0844]

I see they've cancelled the 2314 (the last fast train) from Cambridge. It's not the last train, though, just the last fast train, so I guess they can get away with it without too much stick. The 2214 was cancelled too. Fortunately I was aiming for the 2244, which is running - although not non-stop as in the emergency timetable - it's stopping at (I think) RYS, LET, HIT and SVG. My outward journey today (the 1242 from KGX) likewise at the last minute change from being direct to CBG to stopping at SVG, HIT, LET and RYS.

I don't really object to dropping the idea of running non-stop services if there's limited ability to run the timetable - indeed it makes sense to do so IMHO. But what on earth happened? What's the point of publishing an emergency timetable if you then decide to run a rather different emergency timetable from the one published? And why were they struggling so much to run a timetable today that really didn't look that challenging?

It seems they had drivers but hadn't sorted diagrams and the drivers were mostly spare and being told last minute where to go without proper thought. In one case a train was left with no driver and another one finished was offered a decent amount of overtime to take it, which he did. If not that would have potentially blocked the platform for ages.

The timetable was pretty simply but I wonder if it should have been even more simple with trains running all stations to Peterborough and Cambridge all day so if any train didn't run, the wait wouldn't have been too bad. With a regular frequency of 700s I doubt they'd have been too crowded, but even if some were the next train wouldn't have been too far behind.

That, to me, is an emergency timetable. Of course journey times would be longer but better than 2 hour gaps in service, or longer, especially if someone had to change train somewhere along the line.

 

[Skimble19]

Thanks for the info. But Monday's really not that interesting, being a bank holiday. I think the big question is: will Tuesday be on the emergency tmetable?

As far as I know, no. That could change of course though.

 

[Roy Badami]

As far as I know, no. That could change of course though.

I'm struggling to see what the alternative is, though, unless they have some plan to magically get a large number of drivers route cleared between now and Tuesday morning....

 

[stut]

RER would never have accepted the bi-mode change in the core of the operation, at least without another two tracks being available for diversionary purposes. Without the extra pair of tracks between Blackfriars and Farringdon the connection up to the King's Cross lines should never have been attempted - days when it works will inevitably be at a premium, even when/if the operator actually recruits/trains sufficient drivers. Regrettably, utterly predictable.

Was there double-tracking at Gare du Nord before line D? I can't remember now - I assume there must. They certainly used to have to change drivers (SNCF to RATP) as well as the voltage there until relatively recently (2009?)

 

[NorthKent1989]

Still no Medway services, the only services between Luton and Rainham are a EMT service to St. Pancras then a change from there today HS1.......

 

[talldave]

Still no Medway services, the only services between Luton and Rainham are a EMT service to St. Pancras then a change from there today HS1.......

It's pathetic, but what's most irritating is Thameslink's meaningless waffle about the timetable "bedding in". What utter crap. Passengers are intelligent people who want the truth - e.g. "we f***ed up, don't have enough trained drivers and it's going to be like this until September ".

 

[Class465fan]

It's pathetic, but what's most irritating is Thameslink's meaningless waffle about the timetable "bedding in". What utter crap. Passengers are intelligent people who want the truth - e.g. "we f***ed up, don't have enough trained drivers and it's going to be like this until September ".

Couldn't agree more.