Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Bromley boy]

Never knew they would draft in drivers incompetent with the route they are meant to drive who try and drive despite knowing what they are doing is wrong, instead of reporting the fact there is a problem. Complete idiots!

What a ridiculous and childish comment to make.

The wrong route was taken but the driver immediately realised the error and I understand had to make a wrong direction move back out of the canal tunnels. No driver would ever proceed along a route they didn’t sign.

The issue rearing it’s head here, once again, is the failure of the TOC to ensure adequate training and that there are sufficient drivers competent on the traction/routes. Why? Penny pinching as usual.

 

[paddyk]

Hello,

Quick Q...

Is my Hitchin to London Terminals now valid at St Pancras? Is the smartcard confirmed working on the barriers there? I Usally go in to MOG via FPK, but then home from KGX so that I get a seat, using the Northern line from MOG to KGX.

Cheers

 

[thedbdiboy]

I can't confirm whether the readers work but a London Terminals ticket from Hitchin is valid at STP.

 

[chriskeene]

Has there been some headcode changes? I notice that there seems to be Gatwick expres Brighton/Victoria services with 1W (which was used by thameslink) and 1M. 1W for down, and 1M for up (which itself seems unusual for these parts)

 

[whitrope]

Having previously been on the inside and now away from the mess, I would say the reason that GTR are untouchable is DFT are aware that what was asked to be delivered in the bidding process, was actually not deliverable by any TOC. The amount of training, timetable changes, fleet changes, engineering work, varying contracts, integration of dofferent TOCs etc.

No one could have delivered it smoothly, although GTR have managed to shoot themselves in the foot so much, that what was set up to be very bad, turned into an unmitigated disaster.

There will be no desire to nationalise GTR yet. If the government were to take over, the immediate short term issues would not be resolved. Its much better to let GTR suffer the heat until there are enough drivers trained, workers contracts are aligned, network improvements complete and fleet cascades settled. Once everything is running smoothly the contract can either be retendered or handed back to the Government.

For the DFT to take the contract now would be undesirable for them. Note how through all of this however that it is the passenger who suffers.

Nobody held a gun to the heads of Govia to sign the franchise agreement. If the franchisee thought it flawed and undeliverable then why not walk away during the standstill period.

 

[sarahj]

Has there been some headcode changes? I notice that there seems to be Gatwick expres Brighton/Victoria services with 1W (which was used by thameslink) and 1M. 1W for down, and 1M for up (which itself seems unusual for these parts)

Yes, one of the worries has been the great big headcode change, and signalers miss-identifying a train.

 

[Minstral25]

Nobody held a gun to the heads of Govia to sign the franchise agreement. If the franchisee thought it flawed and undeliverable then why not walk away during the standstill period.

Because they are human and probably thought they could run the Management Contract at the time. Then when actually running the Management Contract it became more difficult as time went on and they discovered they were wrong.

 

[RichardN]

How many trips with a route conductor/pilot driver are needed before a driver can say they sign the route, or is route learning an entirely distinct task that a piloted trip doesn't count against?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes it's an understandable mistake.

I'm probably being a tad optimistic in hoping to see Crossrail trains going to Rainham at some future date but they would be far more useful than Thameslink, who really wants to travel into London on a train that serves almost every station on the way? I do actually travel from Rochester to Luton now and again but I'll stick to paying a bit more for the HS service and get there in about half the time, no fewer than 29 intermediate stops on the Thameslink. The service is currently disrupted along with the rest of the network it seems, I'll wait for things to settle down a bit before taking a ride.

This may be my cynical, conspiracy theory self talking here but I think there are several reasons as to why the Rainham service was shoehorned in at the last minute:

1: A fares raid, it's too much of a coincidence that Crossrail will open at Abbey Wood later this year and they announce Thameslink services to Rainham via Abbey Wood.

2: To delay the Crossrail extension to Gravesend

3: As one poster said, to try and get Medway folk into HS1, by slowing services down on the Bromley and Woolwich routes

Again that's just the cynical, conspiracy theorist side coming out.

 

[GoatSarah]

So the current situation at Cambridge appears to be that we’ve lost our semi fasts. They’re supposed to be the Brighton service, but those now only exist in theory.

It’s not clear if we will ever get them back.

 

[Class2ldn]

Route learning will normally be assigned as a separate task which is why a lot of this has happened today, most driver's don't sign the routes.
I don't sign east grinstead, Horsham or London bridge yet but most of my trains work through these at some point this week so it won't be me driving it. It will either be cancelled, cut short or conducted.
They've known about this for how long and yet they still haven't been able to implement a proper training plan , mainly because they couldn't release driver's to learn the routes and cover the normal duties.
Shambles doesn't even come close.
In regards to Sunday's as has been pointed out the pay deal was agreed but hasn't been enforced by the company . I myself don't work Sunday's and I never will.

 

[Ianno87]

Core to Cambridge really isn't happening though, is it? The services aren't even on the departure boards

I could swear I got on a 12 car Thameslink train at Cambridge at 0654 this morning, advertised on the departure boards, and got off said same train at London Bridge. Maybe I dreamed it...

 

[Domh245]

London Reconnections have done a piece on the debacle, and have chalked it up to a lack of trained drivers.

This may be my cynical, conspiracy theory self talking here but I think there are several reasons as to why the Rainham service was shoehorned in at the last minute:

and No.4 - they realised that running as many services through Windmill Junction as they had planned was untenable and so had to send things away from Southern and onto SouthEastern.


I was also tickled to read this comment:

There is of course no irony whatsoever given the complaints of GN users for years of potential performance pollution from issues on the MML, Thameslink core as well as south of the Thames to their services that most of the major issues causing disruption were GN related issues that then had knock on effects to others elsewhere on the GTR network elsewhere.

 

[Failed Unit]

London Reconnections have done a piece on the debacle, and have chalked it up to a lack of trained drivers.



and No.4 - they realised that running as many services through Windmill Junction as they had planned was untenable and so had to send things away from Southern and onto SouthEastern.


I was also tickled to read this comment:

To be honest I was not surprised. Under GTR performance has declined that recently it is one of the worse performers on the network. Some months it struggles to hit 30%. Thameslink has performed better for a while.

Even now it is only no.6 in terms of poor performance. Hull trains, TPE, HeX, Northern and VTEC all doing worse.

Great Northern (non core) have settled down. The ones going through the core doing badly.

 

[Antman]

This may be my cynical, conspiracy theory self talking here but I think there are several reasons as to why the Rainham service was shoehorned in at the last minute:

1: A fares raid, it's too much of a coincidence that Crossrail will open at Abbey Wood later this year and they announce Thameslink services to Rainham via Abbey Wood.

2: To delay the Crossrail extension to Gravesend

3: As one poster said, to try and get Medway folk into HS1, by slowing services down on the Bromley and Woolwich routes

Again that's just the cynical, conspiracy theorist side coming out.

I've no doubt that getting more people onto the premium rate HS service is a major factor.

 

[BluePenguin]

What a ridiculous and childish comment to make.

The wrong route was taken but the driver immediately realised the error and I understand had to make a wrong direction move back out of the canal tunnels. No driver would ever proceed along a route they didn’t sign.

The issue rearing it’s head here, once again, is the failure of the TOC to ensure adequate training and that there are sufficient drivers competent on the traction/routes. Why? Penny pinching as usual.

...it was written with sarcasm. Of course they wouldn't deliberate schedule in a driver who didn't know the route, plus I doubt a driver would ever drive a route they didn't know on a whim, hoping that they would manage anyway. In reality I know the driver had no alternative in this case and acted the best way they could.

What I mean is that a GTR is lacking in so many areas, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason all of the delays were down to. I agree, with you though, as a TOC they seem to be very lazy when it comes down to forward planning and thinking. The drivers always do their best to do their job but are constantly let down by their TOC and are relied upon to work overtime at a moment notice when disaster strikes. It is same old story with Southern from 2016 that is happening to Thameslink now. Despite the more expensive fares, all of this makes Southeastern almost look good!

 

[Stampy]

Yes, one of the worries has been the great big headcode change, and signalers miss-identifying a train.

Don't the trains that go THROUGH the core have a 9Jxx headcode or something similar??

 

[jon0844]

“There might also be a need to check if any union recommended not doing overtime/RDW to mess things up for political gain!”

That doesn't mean any union saying something officially, but rather union reps chatting with members informally/off the record. Personally, I doubt you'd need a union to tell you that if you have issues with all the changes (rostering, moving depots, lack of training for xx months etc) then not turning up would be a good way of sending a message home. You're not doing anything that can land you in trouble (unless you're taking a sickie, which is a whole different ballgame and one that I believe GTR management have been clamping down on a lot recently).

Anyway, I am only repeating what I've been told. And it will no doubt be investigated as part of the whole sorry mess.

 

[BluePenguin]

I've no doubt that getting more people onto the premium rate HS service is a major factor.

Of course it is, the same slowing down of services happened to us in East Kent back in 2009/10. Services were slowed down by 20-30 minutes and today they stop at nearly every station up to Sevenoaks. Even services to Victoria were victims as those in Medway will know.

Forget the passenger experience and that they might need to get to their destinations quickly, it is all about making as much money as possible.

 

[Bromley boy]

...it was written with sarcasm. Of course they wouldn't deliberate schedule in a driver who didn't know the route, plus I doubt a driver would ever drive a route they didn't know on a whim, hoping that they would manage anyway. In reality I know the driver had no alternative in this case and acted the best way they could.

What I mean is that a GTR is lacking in so many areas, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason all of the delays were down to. I agree, with you though, as a TOC they seem to be very lazy when it comes down to forward planning and thinking. The drivers always do their best to do their job but are constantly let down by their TOC and are relied upon to work overtime at a moment notice when disaster strikes. It is same old story with Southern from 2016 that is happening to Thameslink now. Despite the more expensive fares, all of this makes Southeastern almost look good!

Fair enough I missed the sarcasm - that’s what smilies are for .

GTR on the north Kent seems to be struggling this pm.

 

[spangles]

Nobody held a gun to the heads of Govia to sign the franchise agreement. If the franchisee thought it flawed and undeliverable then why not walk away during the standstill period.

I completely agree with you. Delivery risk sits firmly with GTR under the contract and so the cost should be their's to bear.

The point I was making was that given where we are now, I think you would struggle anyone willing to take on the franchise at the moment (including DFT).

The plain truth is that this franchise is going to be pretty awful until everything settles down and I think most other TOCs (and DFT if nationalised) would see it as a poisoned chalice which they would not want to take on (currently).

 

[BluePenguin]

Fair enough I missed the sarcasm - that’s what smilies are for .

GTR on the north Kent seems to be struggling this pm.

No worries, pleased I was able to explain my point better. It is hard to make out sarcasm in text, so smiles all round.

I doubt anyone using GTR services has been smiling today though

 

[Antman]

Of course it is, the same slowing down of services happened to us in East Kent back in 2009/10. Services were slowed down by 20-30 minutes and today they stop at nearly every station up to Sevenoaks. Even services to Victoria were victims as those in Medway will know.

Forget the passenger experience and that they might need to get to their destinations quickly, it is all about making as much money as possible.

Yes I know all about the Medway to Victoria services being slowed down and surely the HS service should be a totally separate franchise?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Yes I know all about the Medway to Victoria services being slowed down and surely the HS service should be a totally separate franchise?

The Highspeed service is integral to the whole idea, which was clearing the way on the 'classic' lines for more local and stopping services. The Kent franchise without the HS services would be financially unbalanced.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Of course it is, the same slowing down of services happened to us in East Kent back in 2009/10. Services were slowed down by 20-30 minutes and today they stop at nearly every station up to Sevenoaks. Even services to Victoria were victims as those in Medway will know.

Forget the passenger experience and that they might need to get to their destinations quickly, it is all about making as much money as possible.

It's all about money your right.

Yes I remember before 2009 The Ramsgate/Dovers via Bromley were non stop from Bromley South to Rochester then Chatham, Gillingham, Sittingbourne and Faversham only where the train divided, the semi fasts terminated at Faversham if I recall correctly and stopped at Swanley, Longfield and Meopham, and the Gillingham stoppers were obviously all stations after Bromley South except Bickley

From 2009 they basically merged the semis with the fasts and simply extended some of the stoppers to Faversham, now I'm hearing from Dover folks that they have or will have an all stops to Bromley service? I hope not for their sakes, I know people who are genuinely worried about their jobs and commutes because of all these changes, yet some forum users I've been on have literally this to say "pay more for HS1" or "it should be about getting more passengers on rather than faster service for those who live outside London" Lucky I can work from home but only for a couple of days at a time, I'm thinking of staying with a friend in Catford just until everything settles down.

 

[BluePenguin]

Yes I know all about the Medway to Victoria services being slowed down and surely the HS service should be a totally separate franchise?

Yes I agree with you, high speed services should definitely be a separate franchise run by a completely different TOC to the mainline services. It would be even better if they made it a condition that applicants could only apply for either the mainline or high speeds franchise but not both. The competition would definitely lead to better offers.

The Highspeed service is integral to the whole idea, which was clearing the way on the 'classic' lines for more local and stopping services. The Kent franchise without the HS services would be financially unbalanced.

No I don't think that is right at all. Where did this "need" for more stopping services come from? A village such as Plucky or Marden although very nice, does not require 2+ trains an hour. This is evidenced by the fact that Southeastern used to skip them pre-HS1 days and still drops these from the calling pattern sometimes today. However much busier towns such as Ramsgate, Sandwich, Deal, Dover, Faversham - Rochester inclusive have much more demand but have suffered by having their services cut and journey times increased to serve smaller towns and villages with increased services and frequencies.

Shifting the demand from these places onto a different line and charging them a fortune to use it , just so that a few quiet towns and villages can have more services than necessary is absolutely absurd. The Ashford - Tonbridge line had so much investment put into it for Eurostar services which is now completely going to waste. A perfectly good mainline has become a giant metro service for the rural locations it used to run through.

Villages and rural locations are not meant for hundreds of people to commute to London quickly from, the same as cities are not meant for those wanting a quiet life, big house, a large garden and nice scenery.

Had you asked passengers at the time, nobody in this part of Kent would have agreed to their mainline being slowed down in exchange for a high speed line to the other side of London they wish to travel to, for which they had to pay a premium to use.

As for being "financially unbalanced", if the HS premium is required to subside these unneeded metro stopping services in order for them to be affordable to run, then the answer is obviously that they should scrap them to reduce costs. It is not fair that we are made to pay for them just so that the books are kept balanced.

What would happen if HS fare became so high that passengers decided to wake up early in the morning and swapped to the classic lines? I doubt Southeastern would struggle to run services as normal.

 

[BluePenguin]

It's all about money your right.

Yes I remember before 2009 The Ramsgate/Dovers via Bromley were non stop from Bromley South to Rochester then Chatham, Gillingham, Sittingbourne and Faversham only where the train divided, the semi fasts terminated at Faversham if I recall correctly and stopped at Swanley, Longfield and Meopham, and the Gillingham stoppers were obviously all stations after Bromley South except Bickley

From 2009 they basically merged the semis with the fasts and simply extended some of the stoppers to Faversham, now I'm hearing from Dover folks that they have or will have an all stops to Bromley service? I hope not for their sakes, I know people who are genuinely worried about their jobs and commutes because of all these changes, yet some forum users I've been on have literally this to say "pay more for HS1" or "it should be about getting more passengers on rather than faster service for those who live outside London" Lucky I can work from home but only for a couple of days at a time, I'm thinking of staying with a friend in Catford just until everything settles down.

Thanks for the history of the calling patters, it is interesting.

I hope that all services from Dover Priory do not become all stations to Bromley South. It is bad enough at the moment although not quite as bad as that. In peak times there already are some services which are all stations that take 2 hours and 15 minutes - a far cry from the previous 1 hour 40 minutes enjoyed back in the days of long gone fast services

Currently one service is fast to Canterbury East, then calls at all stations Rochester onwards until Bromley South at which time run via the Catford loop stopping only at Denmark Hill before Victoria. The other service calsl at all stations to Faversham and then the semi fast pattern before Meopham, Longfield, Bromley South and Victoria. Both of them take around 2 hours. In peak times Meopham and Longfield are skipped which reduce journey times by a couple of minutes.

 

[Antman]

The Highspeed service is integral to the whole idea, which was clearing the way on the 'classic' lines for more local and stopping services. The Kent franchise without the HS services would be financially unbalanced.

How would it be unbalanced? Surely Southeastern have a conflict of interests?

 

[infobleep]

Wow.

View attachment 47036

Source

I'm surprised at the number of routes where trains were running at over 90%. From everything I've read on here I was expecting it to be bad everywhere!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It's all about money your right.

Yes I remember before 2009 The Ramsgate/Dovers via Bromley were non stop from Bromley South to Rochester then Chatham, Gillingham, Sittingbourne and Faversham only where the train divided, the semi fasts terminated at Faversham if I recall correctly and stopped at Swanley, Longfield and Meopham, and the Gillingham stoppers were obviously all stations after Bromley South except Bickley

From 2009 they basically merged the semis with the fasts and simply extended some of the stoppers to Faversham, now I'm hearing from Dover folks that they have or will have an all stops to Bromley service? I hope not for their sakes, I know people who are genuinely worried about their jobs and commutes because of all these changes, yet some forum users I've been on have literally this to say "pay more for HS1" or "it should be about getting more passengers on rather than faster service for those who live outside London" Lucky I can work from home but only for a couple of days at a time, I'm thinking of staying with a friend in Catford just until everything settles down.

In years gone by, Connex (as the 375s were introduced) ran the Dover Priory trains every 30 minutes, all stops down via Longfield including Farningham Road and Sole Street every 30 minutes; the Ramsgate trains ran every 30 minutes also but were fast Bromley - Rochester and missed out Newington and Teynham. The Dover train would wait in the platform at Faversham for 7 or so minutes in each direction so the Ramsgate could overtake in each direction; meaning passengers to/from Canterbury East, Dover etc could jump off the train that left London 25 minutes later and get the same train thats stopped everywhere and vice versa which also had the effect of Ramsgate passengers getting rapid connections in both directions. It was a bloody good timetable and one I think they should go back to!

In May 09 when it all got integrated with High Speed, the stopper went down to Gillingham only every hour and the Ramsgate / Dover trains picked up the Longfield and Meopham stops. Even better, in the new ITT the Ramsgate / Dover trains only run half-hourly as now and probably split but have to make all stops down to Gillingham as they are not bothering with fast trains off-peak - a further move to push people onto High Speed and a very backward step in my mind.

It's got a lot worse for the Medway folk; especially when I remember in the really good old days when we used to have 8 car 365s lifting off Victoria at peak times that went fast to Chatham. They were proper commuter express trains!