Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes I agree with you, high speed services should definitely be a separate franchise run by a completely different TOC to the mainline services. It would be even better if they made it a condition that applicants could only apply for either the mainline or high speeds franchise but not both. The competition would definitely lead to better offers.


No I don't think that is right at all. Where did this "need" for more stopping services come from? A village such as Plucky or Marden although very nice, does not require 2+ trains an hour. This is evidenced by the fact that Southeastern used to skip them pre-HS1 days and still drops these from the calling pattern sometimes today. However much busier towns such as Ramsgate, Sandwich, Deal, Dover, Faversham - Rochester inclusive have much more demand but have suffered by having their services cut and journey times increased to serve smaller towns and villages with increased services and frequencies.

Shifting the demand from these places onto a different line and charging them a fortune to use it , just so that a few quiet towns and villages can have more services than necessary is absolutely absurd. The Ashford - Tonbridge line had so much investment put into it for Eurostar services which is now completely going to waste. A perfectly good mainline has become a giant metro service for the rural locations it used to run through.

Villages and rural locations are not meant for hundreds of people to commute to London quickly from, the same as cities are not meant for those wanting a quiet life, big house, a large garden and nice scenery.

Had you asked passengers at the time, nobody in this part of Kent would have agreed to their mainline being slowed down in exchange for a high speed line to the other side of London they wish to travel to, for which they had to pay a premium to use.

As for being "financially unbalanced", if the HS premium is required to subside these unneeded metro stopping services in order for them to be affordable to run, then the answer is obviously that they should scrap them to reduce costs. It is not fair that we are made to pay for them just so that the books are kept balanced.

What would happen if HS fare became so high that passengers decided to wake up early in the morning and swapped to the classic lines? I doubt Southeastern would struggle to run services as normal.

And amazingly in the new Invitation to Tender whilst they drop the Chatham Main Line to a rubbish, half-hourly frequency calling all stations they are bringing back express services on the South Eastern Main Line with 8tph leaving Charing Cross.

2tph Hastings express calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Tonbridge and then relevant stops down towards the Coast
2tph Tunbridge Wells semi-fast calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Orpington, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge etc.
2tph East Kent fast calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Ashford etc.
2tph Ashford slow calling Waterloo East, London Bridge, Orpington, Sevenoaks, Hildenborough Tonbridge etc.

So if the demand exists for fast trains from Ashford to London Bridge, are we likely to see re-appropriation of paths to force more Medway and Kent Coast passengers onto HS units whilst the East Kent crowd are offered more fast trains via Tonbridge? Very interesting times ahead.

 

[infobleep]

A points failure appears to have trapped a load of 700s at Three Bridges causing a number of Gatwick to Peterborough trains to be cancelled.

In their wisdom, there is no direct train from Clapham Junction to Gatwick Airport from 0601 to 0643 - suffice to say the 4-coach 0636 London Victoria to Bognor Regis was rather busy when it got to Clapham Junction / East Croydon. People don't realise that the operators intend them to change trains at East Croydon when once there were trains every quarter hour from Victoria to Gatwick (which weren't Gatwick Express).

Was there any announcements at Clapham Junction telling people to go to East Croydon and change?

 

[infobleep]

Look again. The journey to St Pancras is marginally quicker than to Victoria.

The 6:30 Whitstable to Victoira takes 1 hour 39 minutes.

The 6:31 Whitestable to St Pancreas takes 2 hours 23 minutes.

I now see there are other faster trains. For some reason I didn't spot those.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The 6:30 Whitstable to Victoira takes 1 hour 39 minutes.

The 6:31 Whitestable to St Pancreas takes 2 hours 23 minutes.

I now see there are other faster trains. For some reason I didn't spot those.

The 0631 heads east and goes via the coast, i.e. Margate -> Ramsgate -> Deal -> Dover> Folkestone -> Ashford thence HS1!

The 0653 to St Pancras takes 1hr 15mins, heading west via Faversham and Rochester and onto HS1 at Ebbsfleet.

 

[Antman]

In years gone by, Connex (as the 375s were introduced) ran the Dover Priory trains every 30 minutes, all stops down via Longfield including Farningham Road and Sole Street every 30 minutes; the Ramsgate trains ran every 30 minutes also but were fast Bromley - Rochester and missed out Newington and Teynham. The Dover train would wait in the platform at Faversham for 7 or so minutes in each direction so the Ramsgate could overtake in each direction; meaning passengers to/from Canterbury East, Dover etc could jump off the train that left London 25 minutes later and get the same train thats stopped everywhere and vice versa which also had the effect of Ramsgate passengers getting rapid connections in both directions. It was a bloody good timetable and one I think they should go back to!

In May 09 when it all got integrated with High Speed, the stopper went down to Gillingham only every hour and the Ramsgate / Dover trains picked up the Longfield and Meopham stops. Even better, in the new ITT the Ramsgate / Dover trains only run half-hourly as now and probably split but have to make all stops down to Gillingham as they are not bothering with fast trains off-peak - a further move to push people onto High Speed and a very backward step in my mind.

It's got a lot worse for the Medway folk; especially when I remember in the really good old days when we used to have 8 car 365s lifting off Victoria at peak times that went fast to Chatham. They were proper commuter express trains!

The good old days!

Personally I'd have been quite happy to have kept that service and just had an hourly HS service with the other one going to Maidstone West.

 

[hwl]

The Highspeed service is integral to the whole idea, which was clearing the way on the 'classic' lines for more local and stopping services. The Kent franchise without the HS services would be financially unbalanced.

You do realise that the HS services are a complete financial black hole (massively loss making) due to HS1's very high access charges (for the next 24 years till it reverts to government ownership) and DfT's way of hiding payments to HS1 to stop it going bust was to gets the SE franchise to run services on the under utilised HS1 with DfT subsiding SE?
The SE franchise minus HS is actual profitable.
So you are right it is unbalanced but probably in the oppose way to what you thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems to me it’s all about ten years late to be picking over the concept of HS1 domestic services...

 

[Mike395]

Seems to me it’s all about ten years late to be picking over the concept of HS1 domestic services...

Indeed, it's also the wrong place within the forum for it Please keep discussion here to issues directly relating to Thameslink & the timetable change.

 

[paddington]

Arghh, I should have known that GTR wouldn't get anything right the first time - I planned a nice afternoon riding the new routes/canal tunnel and it all went awry, fortunately just lost a bit of Oyster credit

 

[FOH]

Arghh, I should have known that GTR wouldn't get anything right the first time - I planned a nice afternoon riding the new routes/canal tunnel and it all went awry, fortunately just lost a bit of Oyster credit

Delay Repay! Hit ‘em where it hurts for this mess

 

[Bishopstone]

Any feedback from day one as to how the BedPan side of TL fared, covering for the loss of EMT at Bedford and Luton?

The Harpenden mob worked themselves up into a lather over the last few weeks, but seem to have been quiet on social media today. Did that aspect of the new timetable work well?

 

[Failed Unit]

Delay Repay! Hit ‘em where it hurts for this mess

The won’t pay. (Or at least not without a fight most people will give up on).

Photo taken from London kx. Wonder why it was cancelled.

Few things I have noticed this evening which won’t surprise anyone considering how inept GTR are.

Skip stopping. In the Moorgate trains the leave out stations before Finsbury Park ie the busy ones.

The 2120 arrival from Cambridge formed the 2121 back. So much for long turn around and kings cross others had mentioned.

2151 Cambridge service cancelled, but they are not stopping the 2154 Letchworth service to ease the burden. (Although the 2121 May be in its path as we have no driver anyway)

Next fight delay repay. Hello travel watch. Got a nice collection for past few days.

 

[Hadders]

A service from Kings Cross to Horsham, I'm most impressed. Well done GTR!

Such a shame it was cancelled as it would've been nice to have covered the line.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A rare visit to my former stamping ground in North Kent over the weekend gave a chance to sample the new Thameslink Rainham-Luton service as far as St Pancras International (obviously not as fast as the Southeastern Highspeed).

My hosts dropped me off for the 0958 from Rainham's Platform 0. At the station there was clear information about some other services not running for the next few days as part of the 'soft start'.

Perhaps because of all the doom-laden predictions in the media loadings were light throughout but we made uneventful progress, inevitably rather slowly because of the high number of station calls. However, we got from the Greenwich Line across the Cannon Street tracks at North Kent East and onto the Thameslink tracks into London Bridge without any drama.

A fellow passenger (not a rail enthusiast) was most impressed. He got out his phone to call a friend: "You'll never guess what! I'm on a through train from Woolwich to Luton. It's going to be fantastic! We'll be able to get straight to St Pancras for the Eurostar or straight to Luton Airport any time we want. At last they've done something right!"

A member of the Train Preparation Team came through collecting the litter. We arrived at St Pancras on time, after an hour and forty minutes or so.

Having suffered with a back problem for many years I need a firm and upright seat for support and in my case the 'ironing boards' were just the ticket for a comfortable ride.

Evidently some other posters were less than impressed today but in my case this was a ride that did exactly what it was supposed to and scored 10/10.

Later in the day I tried to go to Blackpool North. GTR beat Northern hands down.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The good old days!

Personally I'd have been quite happy to have kept that service and just had an hourly HS service with the other one going to Maidstone West.

Or now you could do the same sort of thing but with the High Speed service being semi-fast to Ramsgate or Dover every hour each and a 'fast' one from Victoria doing the slow stops along each respective branch; e.g. fast one from Victoria arrives Faversham 15:00, departs 15:08 all stops to Ramsgate; High Speed arrives Faversham 15:04, departs 15:05 fast to Canterbury East and Dover; then fast one from Victoria arrives Faversham 15:30, departs 15:38 all stops to Dover; High Speed arrives Faversham 15:34, departs 15:35 semi-fast to Whitstable, Herne, Birchington, Margate, Broadstairs, Ramsgate.

And for added 'oh my god why didn't we think of that?!' value to stop a conflicting move at North Kent East, run the half-hourly Rainham down via Denmark Hill and Longfield?!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

View attachment 47132
The won’t pay. (Or at least not without a fight most people will give up on).

Photo taken from London kx. Wonder why it was cancelled.

Few things I have noticed this evening which won’t surprise anyone considering how inept GTR are.

Skip stopping. In the Moorgate trains the leave out stations before Finsbury Park ie the busy ones.

The 2120 arrival from Cambridge formed the 2121 back. So much for long turn around and kings cross others had mentioned.

2151 Cambridge service cancelled, but they are not stopping the 2154 Letchworth service to ease the burden. (Although the 2121 May be in its path as we have no driver anyway)

Next fight delay repay. Hello travel watch. Got a nice collection for past few days.

How did they intend to get the Horsham service from Kings Cross...?

 

[MikeWh]

How did they intend to get the Horsham service from Kings Cross...?

I'm guessing that board displays departures for both Kings Cross and platforms A/B at St Pancras.

 

[Bedpan]

I wodered why Thameslink/RailPlan 2020 havent been publishing the weekend timetables. It seems that there is no longer a through the night service at weekends. Does anyone know if this is a permanent "improvement" ?

can't see that its's much different than before TBH. There always has been a gap of 4+ hours early on Sunday mornings. The last northbound train used to leave St Pancras at 1.40 but now goes at 1.46 so you could argue that it's a slight improvement. on the other hand the last southbound train on Saturday night/Sunday morning runs 5 mins earlier but now goes to Brighton whereas before the destination was Three Bridges.

 

[jon0844]

Any feedback from day one as to how the BedPan side of TL fared, covering for the loss of EMT at Bedford and Luton?

The Harpenden mob worked themselves up into a lather over the last few weeks, but seem to have been quiet on social media today. Did that aspect of the new timetable work well?

Knebworth users were also up in arms before, yet were posting about the extra space on the 700s and actually getting seats this morning! Came as quite a shock to read.

Some passengers weren't aware of how bad Sunday was. They did see cancellations today but depending on where they were and where they were going, some will have thought today as quite good and seen some of the capacity boosts with their own eyes.

 

[mmh]

I'm guessing that board displays departures for both Kings Cross and platforms A/B at St Pancras.

It's the 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham which was diverted to Kings Cross and was due to depart St Pancras at 21:15

 

[jon0844]

It's the 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham which was diverted to Kings Cross and was due to depart St Pancras at 21:15

There were a fair few CIS issues this morning. Assume it carried on through the day. Hastily amended services not reflected on screens with any altered stopping patterns.

Hopefully in those cases the drivers did announcements or set up the internal systems to do so.

 

[NorthKent1989]

A rare visit to my former stamping ground in North Kent over the weekend gave a chance to sample the new Thameslink Rainham-Luton service as far as St Pancras International (obviously not as fast as the Southeastern Highspeed).

My hosts dropped me off for the 0958 from Rainham's Platform 0. At the station there was clear information about some other services not running for the next few days as part of the 'soft start'.

Perhaps because of all the doom-laden predictions in the media loadings were light throughout but we made uneventful progress, inevitably rather slowly because of the high number of station calls. However, we got from the Greenwich Line across the Cannon Street tracks at North Kent East and onto the Thameslink tracks into London Bridge without any drama.

A fellow passenger (not a rail enthusiast) was most impressed. He got out his phone to call a friend: "You'll never guess what! I'm on a through train from Woolwich to Luton. It's going to be fantastic! We'll be able to get straight to St Pancras for the Eurostar or straight to Luton Airport any time we want. At last they've done something right!"

A member of the Train Preparation Team came through collecting the litter. We arrived at St Pancras on time, after an hour and forty minutes or so.

Having suffered with a back problem for many years I need a firm and upright seat for support and in my case the 'ironing boards' were just the ticket for a comfortable ride.

Evidently some other posters were less than impressed today but in my case this was a ride that did exactly what it was supposed to and scored 10/10.

Later in the day I tried to go to Blackpool North. GTR beat Northern hands down.

Just wait until Woolwich gets an even quicker link to Heathrow via Crossrail, that's real progress! Crossrail, unlike Thameslink is a much welcome addition for us in Medway even if we do have to change at Abbey Wood

 

[Bromley boy]

There were a fair few CIS issues this morning. Assume it carried on through the day. Hastily amended services not reflected on screens with any altered stopping patterns.

Hopefully in those cases the drivers did announcements or set up the internal systems to do so.

Also quite a few issues with PIS codes. SE drivers have been have been issued codes which are wrong and announce an incorrect stopping pattern, which differs from the drivers’ diagrams.

This is an even bigger issue on 700s as I believe the code is an integral part of the train set up (I don’t sign that traction but know plenty of drivers who do).

All in all - the internal view from the front line is that it’s a complete shambles. Many of the new GTR depots haven’t even been built yet, I’ve head stories or portacabins being hastily rented + there’s a shortage of instructors hence a huge backlog of drivers who don’t sign the routes and traction they are now supposed to be driving in anger.

I had a Brighton GTR trainee driver in the cab the other day route learning. He told me he (and many of his colleagues) are not expecting a DI for many, many months and he has been asked to learn routes Brighton won’t actually sign.

 

[Antman]

A rare visit to my former stamping ground in North Kent over the weekend gave a chance to sample the new Thameslink Rainham-Luton service as far as St Pancras International (obviously not as fast as the Southeastern Highspeed).

My hosts dropped me off for the 0958 from Rainham's Platform 0. At the station there was clear information about some other services not running for the next few days as part of the 'soft start'.

Perhaps because of all the doom-laden predictions in the media loadings were light throughout but we made uneventful progress, inevitably rather slowly because of the high number of station calls. However, we got from the Greenwich Line across the Cannon Street tracks at North Kent East and onto the Thameslink tracks into London Bridge without any drama.

A fellow passenger (not a rail enthusiast) was most impressed. He got out his phone to call a friend: "You'll never guess what! I'm on a through train from Woolwich to Luton. It's going to be fantastic! We'll be able to get straight to St Pancras for the Eurostar or straight to Luton Airport any time we want. At last they've done something right!"

A member of the Train Preparation Team came through collecting the litter. We arrived at St Pancras on time, after an hour and forty minutes or so.

Having suffered with a back problem for many years I need a firm and upright seat for support and in my case the 'ironing boards' were just the ticket for a comfortable ride.

Evidently some other posters were less than impressed today but in my case this was a ride that did exactly what it was supposed to and scored 10/10.

Later in the day I tried to go to Blackpool North. GTR beat Northern hands down.

Personally I don't mind the ironing board seats for short journeys but anything more than an hour I'd have to stand.

I can understand the enthusiasm for a direct link from Woolwich to Luton but from Rochester there are 29 intermediate stops and the journey can be done in half the time using the HS service to St Pancras.

 

[Antman]

Just wait until Woolwich gets an even quicker link to Heathrow via Crossrail, that's real progress! Crossrail, unlike Thameslink is a much welcome addition for us in Medway even if we do have to change at Abbey Wood

Hear hear.............and hopefully one day Crossrail will replace the Thameslink service to Rainham!

 

[Failed Unit]

This morning they have cancelled the 0628, 0658 and 0728 services from Cambridge to London.

Stopping a fast train at Letchworth and that massive stop of Knebworth.

So it is impossible to get a peak service today from the shacks between Cambridge and Royston, you can’t get to work if you work at Welwyn GC or Hatfield (and travel in from the north). If you use Finsbury Park from many stations south of Stevenage forget it.

Cancellations are bad enough but removal of the entire peak service?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Personally I don't mind the ironing board seats for short journeys but anything more than an hour I'd have to stand.

I can understand the enthusiasm for a direct link from Woolwich to Luton but from Rochester there are 29 intermediate stops and the journey can be done in half the time using the HS service to St Pancras.

Well, like a number of the new diagrams this one isn't actually there to get you from Rainham to Luton, it's really there to provide connectivity from the London area stations South of St Albans to LBG and to provide longer trains on the Dartford via Greenwich route. Rainham is just a way of mopping up the SE service East of Dartford operationally. This new link has been much debated over the past 18 months, as it obviously adds a new conflict on the LBG approach (the Thameslink project was designed to remove them at that location), and it has required slowing down the remaining SE services via Greenwich a little to fit it in. A potential routing via DMK and Blackheath has also been on the table for a little time but, amazingly, this route provokes slightly fewer conflicts, ie. Lewisham and Loughborough Jnc, (and is actually quite fast from Dartford - Deptford to the central core) so it's probably going to be staying for some time yet. Plus when people at these stations discover that it provides a quite good connection to Luton for flights all over Europe -- miles better than anything before the timetable change -- it will naturally develop its own fan following!

 

[urpert]

Things seem ok so far this morning on the Catford Loop...

 

[Megafuss]

This morning they have cancelled the 0628, 0658 and 0728 services from Cambridge to London.

Stopping a fast train at Letchworth and that massive stop of Knebworth.

So it is impossible to get a peak service today from the shacks between Cambridge and Royston, you can’t get to work if you work at Welwyn GC or Hatfield (and travel in from the north). If you use Finsbury Park from many stations south of Stevenage forget it.

Cancellations are bad enough but removal of the entire peak service?

For clarity, this means stations such as Meldreth have no train towards London in the peak for two hours. Some may see these as small stops. But during the peak they are well used.

 

[Failed Unit]

For clarity, this means stations such as Meldreth have no train towards London in the peak for two hours. Some may see these as small stops. But during the peak they are well used.

I wonder what they are planning. Buses to Royston (and between Stevenage and WGC). Or tough luck (their approach at weekends).

Unbelievable even by GTR standards.