Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Teflon Lettuce]

Simple - they just follow each other. We're talking about a route with multi-aspect signalling capable of running a reasonably close headway, not some rural route with a signal box every few miles.

I don't think anyone would be slating them for running two trains close behind each other. On the contrary, people would see that another train is scheduled close behind and there would be less of a scrum to board the first one.

On the GN side there would have been the option of the first service omitting Hitchin and Stevenage, so it could have been turned out onto the up fast at Cadwell, relieving the pressure on the single up fast platform at Hitchin. A fast run from Cadwell to London could then ensue, with the second, emptier, train then soaking up the half hour's worth of demand from Hitchin and Stevenage. That would have been the ideal resolution.

of course it could just be that GTR, knowing the problems that ensue with the core when trains miss their pathway, decided the best option was to get the late running train through the core as near to it's scheduled pathway as possible to minimise disruption for all their customers across the whole of the network?

 

[bramling]

of course it could just be that GTR, knowing the problems that ensue with the core when trains miss their pathway, decided the best option was to get the late running train through the core as near to it's scheduled pathway as possible to minimise disruption for all their customers across the whole of the network?

If that was the intention then it didn't work - 9J11 was still 9 late when it ran through the core.

In any case, paths through the core shouldn't be an issue - plenty of gaps for services which haven't yet materialised.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If that was the intention then it didn't work - 9J11 was still 9 late when it ran through the core.

In any case, paths through the core shouldn't be an issue - plenty of gaps for services which haven't yet materialised.

but as we both know from this thread... paths through the core are regularly a big issue

 

[Fred26]

Do you know what, I agree with both sides. To an extent. To another, you're both wrong. Is one train really worth arguing about in the grand scheme of things?

 

[bramling]

Do you know what, I agree with both sides. To an extent. To another, you're both wrong. Is one train really worth arguing about in the grand scheme of things?

You're right - and in reality the passenger probably wouldn't be the main consideration. All would depend on what crew reliefs were scheduled, when and where.

What it does do is demonstrate is the fragility of the Thameslink service, but we knew that anyway!

A few years ago, a key London commuter service being cancelled from somewhere like Biggleswade or Hitchin would have been so rare it would have made the local paper!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You're right - and in reality the passenger probably wouldn't the main consideration. All would depend on what crew reliefs were scheduled, when and where.

What is does demonstrate is the fragility of the Thameslink service, but we knew that anyway!

I might've missed the original post but what was the origin of the 30 min delay in the first place?

 

[bramling]

I might've missed the original post but what was the origin of the 30 min delay in the first place?

The incoming service seems to have picked up some delay after Huntingdon, although this doesn't seem to be the full story.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think anyone would be slating them for running two trains close behind each other. On the contrary, people would see that another train is scheduled close behind and there would be less of a scrum to board the first one.

I think you know that, unlike the tube, people would all try and get on the first train (which would cause more delay to the one behind) as they'd either assume that to be crowded or even that it wouldn't be running. Loads of people have got to the point of seeing a train showing as 'on time' and not believing it, given trains at times can show on time then disappear (because there was no inbound service). While that wouldn't apply to a train half way through a journey, a lot of people don't know the reasoning and simply wouldn't wait.

It's like when FCC put on football specials for Arsenal starting at WGC. It would run behind the regular service, and - sure enough - everyone would crush load that train and the football train would turn up to an empty platform.

 

[bramling]

I think you know that, unlike the tube, people would all try and get on the first train (which would cause more delay to the one behind) as they'd either assume that to be crowded or even that it wouldn't be running. Loads of people have got to the point of seeing a train showing as 'on time' and not believing it, given trains at times can show on time then disappear (because there was no inbound service). While that wouldn't apply to a train half way through a journey, a lot of people don't know the reasoning and simply wouldn't wait.

It's like when FCC put on football specials for Arsenal starting at WGC. It would run behind the regular service, and - sure enough - everyone would crush load that train and the football train would turn up to an empty platform.

I can assure that this doesn't happen at places like Hitchin and Letchworth, not during the morning peak at least - it's very common for some people to be letting one or even two trains go if this secures them more chance of a seat.

Whilst things may have changed a little since the fail plan came in and the service became unreliable, people *are* intelligent enough to assess their options based on what services are scheduled to be arriving within the next few minutes -- especially with a half-hour gap right in the heart of the morning peak! In this mornings's case I suspect there wasn't much choice - the lucky ones would be those fortunate enough to be in the right place for the doors, no doubt some were left behind. Some staff do also announce that there's other services following, which has some effect.

 

[Fred26]

You're right - and in reality the passenger probably wouldn't be the main consideration. All would depend on what crew reliefs were scheduled, when and where.

What is does demonstrate is the fragility of the Thameslink service, but we knew that anyway!

A few years ago, a key London commuter service being cancelled from somewhere like Biggleswade or Hitchin would have been so rare it would have made the local paper!

I don't agree with your last point, however I don't want to argue it.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The only stock allowed north of blackfriars through the core is now 700's,377 &387's.

Networkers are barred from platforms 1&2. 73s are still allowed through the core. I believe 377s and 387s are permitted, but not in passenger service. 319s must still be permitted except in passenger service too?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Networkers are barred from platforms 1&2. 73s are still allowed through the core. I believe 377s and 387s are permitted, but not in passenger service. 319s must still be permitted except in passenger service too?

silly question but why would 319's be barred from use when they were originally designed for Thameslink services?

 

[bramling]

silly question but why would 319's be barred from use when they were originally designed for Thameslink services?

I believe it’s due to the accessibility humps, which are aligned to the doorway positions on the Undesiros. Someone else will have to confirm for sure, but that’s the obvious reason that springs to mind.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I believe it’s due to the accessibility humps, which are aligned to the doorway positions on the Undesiros. Someone else will have to confirm for sure, but that’s the obvious reason that springs to mind.

that appears to be madness... surely if the platforms can accomodate 12 cars and an 8 car train comes in with wrong doorways for the humps it can be stopped in such a way that there is no conflict?

 

[bramling]

that appears to be madness... surely if the platforms can accomodate 12 cars and an 8 car train comes in with wrong doorways for the humps it can be stopped in such a way that there is no conflict?

As I say, don’t quote me on it. However the humps are in the middle and are arranged so that they’re the same for both 8-car and 12-car Undesiro. So you could in theory stop a 4-car beyond the hump, but not much else.

Thinking about it, I wonder if there’s that much difference between the doorway positions on a 700 and a 319 - the bodyshells look fairly similar outwardly. Something to ponder on...

 

[ComUtoR]

Networkers are barred from platforms 1&2.

Not quite. It is an operational restriction only but they can stop and turnback if required. As I stated earlier, this is due to an 'operational incident' There is no problems with the humps.

silly question but why would 319's be barred from use when they were originally designed for Thameslink services?

Still allowed according to the sectional appendix

I believe it’s due to the accessibility humps, which are aligned to the doorway positions on the Undesiros. Someone else will have to confirm for sure, but that’s the obvious reason that springs to mind.

What is an 'Undesiro' ?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

that appears to be madness... surely if the platforms can accomodate 12 cars and an 8 car train comes in with wrong doorways for the humps it can be stopped in such a way that there is no conflict?

more to the point... which idiot was it that decided to make it an accessible railway and then order a fleet of trains with floors higher than the platforms?

 

[sefton]

How do YOU know that the London to Horsham service is going to be far more quieter then the Peterborough to London leg?

Because it is; I frequently use that service down towards Gatwick.

After Hitchin the display boards are showing all carriages red/orange as full, but south of the river every carriage is showing green with seats.

From Hitchin you can't move through the train, from London Bridge the rear third of the train is empty.

You're forgetting that for passengers at Huntingdon and St Neots they actually had 2 other services within 20 minutes one actually calling 10 minutes after the cancelled Horsham service so it makes sense that they would have boarded these services then just 30 minutes later they had another Horsham service so not a total disaster as you are trying to claim.

You seem to be overlooking that for most of GTR's customers those trains go to the wrong station.

Those trains go to Kings Cross but the vast majority of the customers on that train don't get off at St Pancras but continue on to one of the Thameslink stations. The train is still full and standing when it leaves St Pancras

Huntingdon, St Neots both had 3 trains within 30 minutes of the cancelled Horsham train while Biggleswade had 2 trains within 30 minutes of the cancelled Horsham train so the only losers this morning were Sandy and Arlesey and they had another service just 30 mins later so I can't see the issue..

The loosers were all of GTR's customers who ended up standing on freezing cold platforms and then had to catch an overcrowded service which didn't take them where they wanted to go.

It rather seems like you should stop making assumptions.

And here is another example of GTR annoying their customers by playing at train sets -http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64332/2018/10/29

What did the failure to stop at St Neots save? Two minutes. Meanwhile all the delayed customers get kicked off onto a freezing platform and delayed another 15 minutes.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because it is; I frequently use that service down towards Gatwick.

After Hitchin the display boards are showing all carriages red/orange as full, but south of the river every carriage is showing green with seats.

From Hitchin you can't move through the train, from London Bridge the rear third of the train is empty.



You seem to be overlooking that for most of GTR's customers those trains go to the wrong station.

Those trains go to Kings Cross but the vast majority of the customers on that train don't get off at St Pancras but continue on to one of the Thameslink stations. The train is still full and standing when it leaves St Pancras



The loosers were all of GTR's customers who ended up standing on freezing cold platforms and then had to catch an overcrowded service which didn't take them where they wanted to go.

It rather seems like you should stop making assumptions.

And here is another example of GTR annoying their customers by playing at train sets -http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64332/2018/10/29

What did the failure to stop at St Neots save? Two minutes. Meanwhile all the delayed customers get kicked off onto a freezing platform and delayed another 15 minutes.

I guess the people at Sandy and Arseley enjoyed the skip stop considering they don’t have other options.

In this instance you can see why GTR skip stop but you see many services that don’t make up anytime as a result of frequently on this “interim” timetable big gaps in frequency opening up as the next service is tactically withdrawn. This happen very frequently Potters Bar, Hatfield, WGC, Welwyn North, Knebworth and the little stations towards Cambridge. But it is for the greater good that stations with no alternative service get skipped.

Has anyone notice how unreliable the 0657 Cambridge- Kings Cross is since it was reinstated? It is skip stopping again today. But it is for the greater good that people that work in WHC / Hatfield travelling from the north are 30 minutes (at least) late. Be interesting how much time this train recovers. But it is frequently late (skip stopping) / cancelled.

As it turned out the delayed train made up a significant amount of time. They stopped a Royston - Kings Cross service at Welwyn Garden city adding 15 minutes delay to it and meaning passengers were only 27 minutes late. I know skip stopping is very divisive. But my view is GTR do it too often with little benefits. Horsham services frequently miss all stations south of East Croydon to save 2 minutes. Cambridge services miss out everything south of Stevenage often giving long gaps as mentioned above. Sometimes they say on the slow and don’t actually recover anything.

Again performance over the past 2 weeks is bad. 5 months after the timetable was introduced we are nowhere near levels of service we had before it was introduced. But it is still all network rails fault.

 

[Aictos]

You seem to be overlooking that for most of GTR's customers those trains go to the wrong station.

Those trains go to Kings Cross but the vast majority of the customers on that train don't get off at St Pancras but continue on to one of the Thameslink stations. The train is still full and standing when it leaves St Pancras

And it's so difficult to walk across to St Pancras from Kings Cross to pick up a TL service?
That's been done for years so why is it suddenly so difficult to do?

What did the failure to stop at St Neots save? Two minutes. Meanwhile all the delayed customers get kicked off onto a freezing platform and delayed another 15 minutes.

A freezing platform and delayed 15 minutes, wow that is a hardship!
They only had to wait 10 minutes for a fast service to Kings Cross then pick up a TL from St Pancras across the road which would have been faster then waiting for the next direct TL and if they really wanted to wait for the direct TL then you could use the booking hall and buy yourself a hot drink from the cafe there.

As to your claim that not stopping at St Neots only saved 2 minutes, I hope you didn't go to the same school as Diane Abbott as it actually saved 20 minutes by running fast between Peterborough and Finsbury Park from a starting delay of 30 minutes that is pretty good going as more then half of the delay was caught up with.

Yes it's a pity that passengers were slightly delayed but it's not the end of the world as some on here are moaning like....

 

[Failed Unit]

And it's so difficult to walk across to St Pancras from Kings Cross to pick up a TL service?
That's been done for years so why is it suddenly so difficult to do?



A freezing platform and delayed 15 minutes, wow that is a hardship!
They only had to wait 10 minutes for a fast service to Kings Cross then pick up a TL from St Pancras across the road which would have been faster then waiting for the next direct TL and if they really wanted to wait for the direct TL then you could use the booking hall and buy yourself a hot drink from the cafe there.

As to your claim that not stopping at St Neots only saved 2 minutes, I hope you didn't go to the same school as Diane Abbott as it actually saved 20 minutes by running fast between Peterborough and Finsbury Park from a starting delay of 30 minutes that is pretty good going as more then half of the delay was caught up with.

Yes it's a pity that passengers were slightly delayed but it's not the end of the world as some on here are moaning like....

I guess when you get this kind of thing every single day you get worn down. Today is better than June but nowhere near as good as April.

We are still getting platforms blocked at Finsbury Park because of no relief driver.

Yes I know. It is nothing to do with GTR it is all network rails fault.

 

[ijmad]

What is an 'Undesiro' ?

The hilarious name for the 700s that many posters around here use because they have yet to accept they're here to stay.

This despite the fact the train satisfaction score for Thameslink jumped 13% when they were introduced. Those of us who spent a few years ramming ourselves on to a short formed, stiflingly hot, narrow aisled 319 every morning for years before 2018 may have a slightly different view than your average rail nostalgist.

 

[Steve Harris]

As to your claim that not stopping at St Neots only saved 2 minutes, I hope you didn't go to the same school as Diane Abbott as it actually saved 20 minutes by running fast between Peterborough and Finsbury Park from a starting delay of 30 minutes that is pretty good going as more then half of the delay was caught up with.

Yes it's a pity that passengers were slightly delayed but it's not the end of the world as some on here are moaning like....

I think you need to go to the link that sefton quoted.

As you are talking about a completely different train !

I find its always best checking facts before slating someone

 

[Verulamius]

Timetables for 9 December to May have now been published on the Thameslink website:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

 

[Aictos]

I think you need to go to the link that sefton quoted.

As you are talking about a completely different train !

I find its always best checking facts before slating someone

I very much doubt it as I was discussing this train > http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64291/2018/10/29/advanced which was discussed by others, it's not my fault if neither you or Sefton noticed it.

And for the record I did actually check facts, maybe you and Sefton ought to do the same

As for slating someone, I did nothing of the sort, just broke apart their argument like anyone could have done.

 

[bramling]

The hilarious name for the 700s that many posters around here use because they have yet to accept they're here to stay.

This despite the fact the train satisfaction score for Thameslink jumped 13% when they were introduced. Those of us who spent a few years ramming ourselves on to a short formed, stiflingly hot, narrow aisled 319 every morning for years before 2018 may have a slightly different view than your average rail nostalgist.

You can say what you like about the Midland side, however anyone who thinks passenger satisfaction has jumped on the GN side this year is living in a fairyland!

 

[bramling]

You can say what you like about the Midland side, however anyone who thinks passenger satisfaction has jumped on the GN side this year is living in a fairyland!

GN side is in meltdown as we speak as it happens...

And the quality of the recovery seems to be pretty shambolic - some massive gaps developing at certain stations, keep an eye on Hitchin for the next hour or so!

 

[Steve Harris]

I very much doubt it as I was discussing this train > http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64291/2018/10/29/advanced which was discussed by others, it's not my fault if neither you or Sefton noticed it.

And for the record I did actually check facts, maybe you and Sefton ought to do the same

As for slating someone, I did nothing of the sort, just broke apart their argument like anyone could have done.

I shall be very blunt here. Please report me if you wish.

As i feel offended by what you have posted.

I dont give a fig about what train your talking about.

I was merely stating that sefton was talking about the 1755 ex Horsham - Peterborough which didn't stop at St Neots saving 2 mins (according to Sefton). And you then argued it saved 20 minutes when in fact he had moved on from and now wasn't discussing the train you have referenced above.

And yes i did notice it. Who couldn't tbh, as its taken up a good page or more.

So Please read carefully what you reply and quote before trying to insult my intelligence !!

I was merely trying to point out that you and sefton had your wires crossed ( although i admit in a cheeky manner). But as you appear to want to avoid polite discussion i will go hide in the shadows and contiue to laugh at what some people post on here.

 

[bramling]

Timetables for 9 December to May have now been published on the Thameslink website:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

Available from the fiction section in all good bookshops!

 

[SAPhil]

Timetables for 9 December to May have now been published on the Thameslink website:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

Still no better at weekends. I've a feeling that GTR will never restore the 4 fast trains an hour on the Bedford line.