Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

GTR do seem good at blaming others when any such opportunity presents itself. If one listened to them the whole shambles is the fault of anyone else but them.

Having said that I still largely blame the DFT for the FailPlan shambles. GTR’s incompetence is just supplementary to DFT’s.

Looks like 1E23 is now having a Thunderbird attached to the front.

The 1E23 failure certainly doesn’t explain the various GTR cancellations today, as you rightly say.

Half-term week perchance?!

Probably.

It is amazing that we are in October now and they still can’t reliably deliver the reduced timetable. Considering they claim this was all network rail delivering the timetable late - this just shows how they use others to deflect the blame.

I see on the news that dft will hit GTR with some punishment for this shambles in weeks. Hopefully strip them of the franchise. Yes it will be the same staff, but hopefully some new direction at the top and may get them to treat customers honestly.

 

[Kite159]

Probably.

It is amazing that we are in October now and they still can’t reliably deliver the reduced timetable. Considering they claim this was all network rail delivering the timetable late - this just shows how they use others to deflect the blame.

I see on the news that dft will hit GTR with some punishment for this shambles in weeks. Hopefully strip them of the franchise. Yes it will be the same staff, but hopefully some new direction at the top and may get them to treat customers honestly.

Expect the punishment to be a token financial penalty.

 

[bramling]

Expect the punishment to be a token financial penalty.

I can’t see the franchise being pulled. Although it would provide a fall-guy, it then introduces issues over who takes over and when. Whilst I’m sure there will be a medium-term desire to replace GTR, I can’t see it happening imminently.

I’m really not keen on the idea of splitting off the 365/387 services to LNER. I can, just about, see a merit in hiving off the 717 services, but any further split would be messy. They should just go back to the old FCC setup - that seemed to work tolerably well. Whatever happens we’re still left with the inherent unreliability of Thameslink, and the results of a poorly-thought-out Thameslink Programme.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Maybe not: the Catford Loop (and Shorlands, Bromley South and Bickley) were supposed to have 4tph all day and is currently barely managing 2tph.

They're trying the 4tph again in December but who knows when any further planned changes will now take place. Sevenoaks trains are supposed to run through to Welwyn in May 2019 and the Cambridge to Ashford International service is supposed to start in December 2019 giving 4ph all day to Swanley, Shoreham, Eynsford and Otford further along that route.

Still a dogs dinner for the Catford route then, I'm not holding out hope for the promised 2tph on the Rainham line to be honest they promised this for September and its now been pushed to December, I bet this will be pushed to March 2019

 

[Skimble19]

WGC still dispatches 700s from two platforms. Everything from those in fact.

700 FLUs are also dispatched on Platform 1 at Sandy at all times. RLUs very very rarely call there but are self dispatch.

Does seem a tad ironic that they're dispatched at Sandy but not places such as Finsbury Park and Stevenage, although it's only due to signal issues.

 

[Hadders]

I’m really not keen on the idea of splitting off the 365/387 services to LNER. I can, just about, see a merit in hiving off the 717 services, but any further split would be messy. They should just go back to the old FCC setup - that seemed to work tolerably well. Whatever happens we’re still left with the inherent unreliability of Thameslink, and the results of a poorly-thought-out Thameslink Programme.

I agree that it would not be good if the service was split. Too many variables at times of disruption and that's before we get to fares. WOuld anyone really want four different fares between Cambridge and London:

Greater Anglia Only
Thameslink Only
LNER Only
Any Permitted
I suspect Penalty Fares all round.

 

[Failed Unit]

I expect you are correct. So small that the share price will increase and everyone will think that is hardly a disincentive to perform badly.

Again WGC service poor again in the peak. Just a coincidence it is half term in many areas.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder how GTR are going to stop the following happening. (Which of course will be blamed on network rail)

1724 Finsbury Park (ex Horsham) delayed and ultimately cancelled

1721 Kings Cross - Cambridge stuck behind. (30 mins delay)

1751 Kings - Cross - Cambridge misses path as other trains get through Finsbury Park. Stuck in slow until potters bar adding up delay. Gets put on fast at Potters bar (but 313 stays out our way)

So the Moorgate & Cambridge route take the brunt of delays from the core despite not going anywhere near it.

Why can’t GTR inform signallers when they are going to block Finsbury Park so other trains can be routed around?

To add insult to injury. They will skip stop the 1927 Cambridge- Kings Cross after Royston. There is no train from stations south of Stevenage for 1 hour. But these passengers are not important.

 

[hwl]

I wonder how GTR are going to stop the following happening. (Which of course will be blamed on network rail)

1724 Finsbury Park (ex Horsham) delayed and ultimately cancelled

1721 Kings Cross - Cambridge stuck behind. (30 mins delay)

1751 Kings - Cross - Cambridge misses path as other trains get through Finsbury Park. Stuck in slow until potters bar adding up delay. Gets put on fast at Potters bar (but 313 stays out our way)

So the Moorgate & Cambridge route take the brunt of delays from the core despite not going anywhere near it.

Why can’t GTR inform signallers when they are going to block Finsbury Park so other trains can be routed around?

Simple stop the skip lorry striking a bridge and stop someone jumping in front of Thameslink service delaying the ex- Horsham and other earlier TL trains too...

GTR are having a very bad external (i.e. not GTR caused) problems day (over running over night engineering works, skip lorry bridge strike, a jumper and 3 separate signal failures)

 

[Failed Unit]

Simple stop the skip lorry striking a bridge and stop someone jumping in front of Thameslink service delaying the ex- Horsham and other earlier TL trains too...

GTR are having a very bad external (i.e. not GTR caused) problems day (over running over night engineering works, skip lorry bridge strike, a jumper and 3 separate signal failures)

But they have a total inability to recover the service. If they increase services through the core it is only ever going to work if they have a plan B. Instead of blocking Finsbury Park why wasnt the train turned At Blackfriars? Much less disruptive?

By not doing so has shafted most GN services in the peak.

 

[hwl]

But they have a total inability to recover the service. If they increase services through the core it is only ever going to work if they have a plan B. Instead of blocking Finsbury Park why wasnt the train turned At Blackfriars? Much less disruptive?

By not doing so has shafted most GN services in the peak.

They apologised to rail user groups for the evening peak mess in advance early this afternoon!

You are assuming that GTR knew that the driver wouldn't be at Finsbury to change over, they could easily have been delayed on an incoming GN service.

 

[Failed Unit]

They apologised to rail user groups for the evening peak mess in advance early this afternoon!

You are assuming that GTR knew that the driver wouldn't be at Finsbury to change over, they could easily have been delayed on an incoming GN service.

Just a normal day with GTR. Stuff happens they never have a plan to recover. Never saw an apology on great northern in advance maybe others did.

If GTR don’t know where their staff are who does? They should know exactly where a driver of an inbound service is. But this is a pattern since May (Which we are all sick of). “We are sorry this service is cancelled - the driver is currently at Royston”. As a service at kings cross gets cancelled after it should have departed.

 

[jon0844]

202 additional GTR services from December 9th, with 170 of those being off-peak services. But no weekend service changes!

No new routes either (we knew that), with PDF timetables available from next week.

 

[bramling]

202 additional GTR services from December 9th, with 170 of those being off-peak services. But no weekend service changes!

No new routes either (we knew that), with PDF timetables available from next week.

That’s an absolute disgrace if the weekend service is still as it is now. It’s considerably *worse* than pre-May, let alone what was actually supposed to be delivered.

I thought my train home might actually have arrived right-time last night as the preceding Horsham-Peterborough service was so late it was behind rather than in front. Nope - a late-running Brighton-Cambridge service got in our way at Hitchin instead!

 

[Failed Unit]

That’s an absolute disgrace if the weekend service is still as it is now. It’s considerably *worse* than pre-May, let alone what was actually supposed to be delivered.

I thought my train home might actually have arrived right-time last night as the preceding Horsham-Peterborough service was so late it was behind rather than in front. Nope - a late-running Brighton-Cambridge service got in our way at Hitchin instead!

Agreed. The weekend service is totally unacceptable, but no-one seems to care.

GTR know they are untouchable and as most MPs are not traveling at the weekend no pressure is getting applied.

The fact they STILL cancel multiple services at the weekend leaving long gaps doesn’t seem to matter. If GTR are saying this is a success, they should hand the franchise back now. They have no business running any service on the railway. (Sorry I forget - this is all network rails fault)

I had hoped we would return to the pre-May 2tph we had. Clearly not. Why are GTR not getting punished for this? Why is only operating less that 50% of what was promised not a breach of the franchise.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps they intend to introduce weekend services gradually between December and May. I hope so because weekends are awful and, ironically, Sunday is better with some 2tph services in the morning and late afternoon.

 

[ijmad]

So just no Orpington service whatsoever on the weekends eh. That route isn't even affected by the BML works.

 

[hwl]

Perhaps they intend to introduce weekend services gradually between December and May. I hope so because weekends are awful and, ironically, Sunday is better with some 2tph services in the morning and late afternoon.

BML south of Three Bridges is closed 2/3rds of weekends during the December to May TT period so apparently not much point in putting much effort into a proper new timetable.

Given the GN side driver training requirements I suspect they probably want to focus on training rather than improving the weekend service.

 

[Failed Unit]

Given the GN side driver training requirements I suspect they probably want to focus on training rather than improving the weekend service.

Which is the crux of the problem. GTR don’t care about quality of service. This driver training should have got done months ago, they only had 2 years to plan. But instead they continue to offer customers a substandard service.

6 months of this and not even a sincere apology. Just a deflection to network rail.

This continued contempt they show Great Northern passengers is so frustrating.

 

[jellybaby]

6 months of this and not even a sincere apology

The enhanced compensation seems to be a bit of an attempt at an apology.

 

[gingerheid]

Still no more weekend services? Huh!?

I was a bit circumspect about calling them a snivelling bunch of lying somethings before as nobody wants sued.

But Network Rail's failure to give them 12 weeks notice last May stops them doing something for over a year? Even Trump might be embarrassed by a lie like that!

They very evidently were never anywhere close to running the service. The only way obtaining payment under a contract that included a requirement to do so wasn't criminal was if they genuinely were so stupid that they thought they were. I don't believe anyone is that stupid but if they are they are in no way fit to be allowed to run anything to do with a railway.

 

[bramling]

Still no more weekend services? Huh!?

I was a bit circumspect about calling them a snivelling bunch of lying somethings before as nobody wants sued.

But Network Rail's failure to give them 12 weeks notice last May stops them doing something for over a year? Even Trump might be embarrassed by a lie like that!

They very evidently were never anywhere close to running the service. The only way obtaining payment under a contract that included a requirement to do so wasn't criminal was if they genuinely were so stupid that they thought they were. I don't believe anyone is that stupid but if they are they are in no way fit to be allowed to run anything to do with a railway.

The whole project (sorry, Programme) has reeked of incompetence from start to finish. It’s amazing there are still a few people who do try to defend it. It’s badly designed, badly implemented and badly operated - a bit like the first Tay Bridge!

 

[Failed Unit]

The enhanced compensation seems to be a bit of an attempt at an apology.

Not really. Their shareholders are not footing the bill. All correspondence is carefully worded to imply that this whole mess is nothing to do with them.

Likewise just like delay repay they have made it so difficult to claim the vast majority either won’t claim or get it declined. I don’t use a season as I am only in 3 or 4 days per week but they have expected me to keep all my tickets (they are welcome to cross reference delay repay claims). They even mislead when they were fighting to give non season ticket holders compensation- implying season ticket holders don’t get delay repay.

The whole thing leaves a very sour taste. Especially GTRs “this is nothing to do with us attitude”. In hindsight I should have got monthly’s from May as at least they get compensated. Us on Carnets will get nothing as they will make it impossible to get anything.

 

[paul332]

Two cheers. The new timetable from 8 Dec (on RTT) shows a full service reinstated on Sutton loop and St Albans / Luton all-stations, with the exception of a couple of northbound morning peak services north of West Hampstead (which could and should be provided by additional stops by semi-fasts which have sufficient timetable padding). The notorious 30/35-minute gaps are finally plugged. Pretty good overall, provided the actual timetable reflects this and the additional trains actually run.

 

[ijmad]

Two cheers. The new timetable from 8 Dec (on RTT) shows a full service reinstated on Sutton loop and St Albans / Luton all-stations, with the exception of a couple of northbound morning peak services north of West Hampstead (which could and should be provided by additional stops by semi-fasts which have sufficient timetable padding). The notorious 30/35-minute gaps are finally plugged. Pretty good overall, provided the actual timetable reflects this and the additional trains actually run.

Half hourly is still pretty pathetic mind.

I'm remember reading somewhere (perhaps here?) that once the Sevenoaks, Orpington and Ashford trains are no-longer using the bay platforms as more and more are sent through the Core, there might be capacity to run a 15 minute service on the Sutton loop, with the additional services terminating at Blackfriars, sometime in 2020 or beyond. Did I imagine this? I'd like to see a few more from Denmark Hill / Peckham Rye in the peaks as well, but lord knows if we'll ever see that.

 

[mmh]

Half hourly is still pretty pathetic mind.

I'm remember reading somewhere (perhaps here?) that once the Sevenoaks, Orpington and Ashford trains are no-longer using the bay platforms as more and more are sent through the Core, there might be capacity to run a 15 minute service on the Sutton loop, with the additional services terminating at Blackfriars, sometime in 2020 or beyond.

I hope so. In a fantasy world it'd persuade someone to decide the Sutton loop should be self-contained and only terminate at Blackfriars as originally planned, simplifying things and removing some 8 cars from running through the core.

 

[Aictos]

I hope so. In a fantasy world it'd persuade someone to decide the Sutton loop should be self-contained and only terminate at Blackfriars as originally planned, simplifying things and removing some 8 cars from running through the core.

Indeed this was the plan until some idiot of a MP decided they didn't like it

A alternative plan would be for the peak only Southern services that currently run between London Bridge and the Sutton/Wimbledon Loop would be to have them extended to London Blackfriars using the bays there for example: 2W52 17:38 Sutton (Surrey) to London Bridge would terminate at London Blackfriars at 18:39 and then form 2F53 18:58 London Bridge to London Victoria departing London Blackfriars at 18:51 so yes there is about 10 minutes turnaround time at London Blackfriars.

This would mean that the likes of St Albans and Wimbledon keep their though services.

 

[swt_passenger]

A alternative plan would be for the peak only Southern services that currently run between London Bridge and the Sutton/Wimbledon Loop would be to have them extended to London Blackfriars using the bays there for example: 2W52 17:38 Sutton (Surrey) to London Bridge would terminate at London Blackfriars at 18:39 and then form 2F53 18:58 London Bridge to London Victoria departing London Blackfriars at 18:51 so yes there is about 10 minutes turnaround time at London Blackfriars...

I’m pretty sure the medium term plan is to run Southern services between London Bridge & Blackfriars via the Sutton Loop. Terminating Southerns at Wimbledon is a temporary thing. Can’t remember where I last saw it though, it was in some sort of GTR consultation brief or similar...

 

[Aictos]

I’m pretty sure the medium term plan is to run Southern services between London Bridge & Blackfriars via the Sutton Loop. Terminating Southerns at Wimbledon is a temporary thing. Can’t remember where I last saw it though, it was in some sort of GTR consultation brief or similar...

That would make sense but since when was joined up thinking encouraged?

 

[swt_passenger]

That would make sense but since when was joined up thinking encouraged?

I’ve found it since posting earlier:

Route SN3.11:
London Blackfriars – Peckham Rye – Herne Hill – Streatham –
Wimbledon – Sutton
Serving: London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton. Trains will generally continue to Wimbledon and London Bridge as Route SN3.12.
Route SN3.12:
London Bridge– Peckham Rye – Mitcham Eastfields – Sutton
Serving: London Bridge, South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Tooting, Haydons Road, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Chase, South Merton, Morden South, St Helier, Sutton Common, West Sutton and Sutton. Trains will generally continue to Mitcham Eastfields and London Blackfriars as Route SN3.11

http://www.flua.org.uk/documents/GTR 2018 Timetable Consultation Phase 2 .pdf