Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

[DW54]

Brief announcement now on DfT web site: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thameslink-deal-close-to-completion

It would be instructive to read the rest of the Press release, notably (emphases mine):

The competition to supply trains and maintenance services for the Thameslink programme was designed and launched under the previous administration in 2008, in accordance with EU procurement procedures.

In October 2009 the previous government announced that the 2 remaining short-listed bidders were Bombardier Transportation UK Ltd with VeloCity and Siemens Plc with Cross London Trains, comprising of Siemens Project Ventures, Innisfree Ltd and 3i Infrastructure Plc. In June 2011 the Siemens-led consortium was announced as the preferred bidder for the project.

There's quite clearly a desire to distance the government from the methodology (which produced the delays) which was adopted by the previous government (ie Labour), but not the final outcome.

 

[Class377/5]

Further back still, in the 2008 DfT 'Rolling Stock plan', the Thameslink order was expected to be 'up to 1300' vehicles.

So pretty much meaningless numbers at the time, as they were still years away from deciding on the routes, and the balance of 8 and 12 car trains.

Indeed, however the situation today is that there is an order for x amount of trains but no idea what routes they will be serving bar the Core to Sutton/Sevenoaks/Maidstone East.

 

[Goldfish62]

All about the trains, what about the staff? Currently, maintenance staff currently working for the TOC get the benefits of a TOC, ie final salary pension, reduced price travel, etc. no doubt (like IEP) when staff go across to Siemens, that all goes. So the Government is happy about less people in the 'old' BR pension and will break the Unions monopoly. Which is why these IEP and Thameslink schemes exsist.

I don't follow. Surely TUPE will apply?

 

[swt_passenger]

It doesn't seem to be consistent, as I recall normal TUPE rules didn't apply to the brand new Siemens depot at Northam. IIRC most of the staff there were recruited directly, with some from outside the railway, to maintain the Desiro fleet, and the maintenance staff for the Mk1 fleet elsewhere was gradually made redundant.

I don't think this happened at Northampton though, I remember someone saying most staff working for Siemens there were transferred from Bletchley.

 

[HSTEd]

They will likely make the existing maintenance staff apply for new positions in the new depot facilities and then make all the staff that don't apply for new jobs redundant.

 

[DW54]

Indeed, however the situation today is that there is an order for x amount of trains but no idea what routes they will be serving bar the Core to Sutton/Sevenoaks/Maidstone East.

That's a very south-centric view of the world, but then if you've got a moniker like Class 377/5, you'd have to be sarf.

So for balance, add Cambridge, Peterborough and Bedford (and points between, exactly which ?? - especially Hertford Loop).

 

[A-driver]

They will likely make the existing maintenance staff apply for new positions in the new depot facilities and then make all the staff that don't apply for new jobs redundant.

That's exactly what unions are there for-to prevent that happening.

 

[Class377/5]

That's a very south-centric view of the world, but then if you've got a moniker like Class 377/5, you'd have to be sarf.

So for balance, add Cambridge, Peterborough and Bedford (and points between, exactly which ?? - especially Hertford Loop).

Oh your very right but the northern destinations aren't in flux, just the tph to them is.

And we all know the Hertford Loop won't see any regular service bar diversions yet every single units will be tested on it!

 

[Brunel]

They will likely make the existing maintenance staff apply for new positions in the new depot facilities and then make all the staff that don't apply for new jobs redundant.

That's what I think. Not good for the staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't follow. Surely TUPE will apply?

Don't think TUPE applies. I think it's because it is not a 'takeover' but a new company doing the maintenance, with the old maintenance regime shutting down.

 

[Class377/5]

Will add this here, there was a Public Accounts Committee meeting last week over Thameslink. Not much new information but the following may interest…

• First train in service December 2015
• First 100 carriages in service May 2016
• Last train delivered June 2018
• Thameslink stock is class 700
• 700’s will take 2 years and 7 months to be delivered
• KO2 infrastructure completed January 2018
• Thameslink peak services increases from today’s 16tph to 20tph in May 2018
• 24tph is December 2018
• Part of the delay in new trains is down to depot planning issues
• All parties underestimated how complex deal was, hence the delay.
• Banks are confident in Siemens ability to deliver

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I reckon they've had their 10-day standstill.
Nothing yet from the DfT...

 

[Class377/5]

I reckon they've had their 10-day standstill.
Nothing yet from the DfT...

Its a minimum 10 days from 14th so should be up unless one of the losing bidders have objected. Nothing else can hold the deal up as its all sorted now.

I expect we should hear next day or so.

 

[jon0844]

I'd love to have seen Bombardier's schedule if it had won. I mean, where is the bit about all trains being sent back to the factory?

 

[Class377/5]

I'd love to have seen Bombardier's schedule if it had won. I mean, where is the bit about all trains being sent back to the factory?

To be far they normally only plan for the first few to require sending back!

 

[swt_passenger]

I reckon they've had their 10-day standstill.
Nothing yet from the DfT...

10 working days isn't it usually? So about 14 days in all...

 

[RobShipway]

Will add this here, there was a Public Accounts Committee meeting last week over Thameslink. Not much new information but the following may interest…

• First train in service December 2015
• First 100 carriages in service May 2016
• Last train delivered June 2018
• Thameslink stock is class 700
• 700’s will take 2 years and 7 months to be delivered
• KO2 infrastructure completed January 2018
• Thameslink peak services increases from today’s 16tph to 20tph in May 2018
• 24tph is December 2018
• Part of the delay in new trains is down to depot planning issues
• All parties underestimated how complex deal was, hence the delay.
• Banks are confident in Siemens ability to deliver

I would guess that the first train in service has by now slipped to March 2016?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

10 working days isn't it usually? So about 14 days in all...

The bit I read last week said calendar days.
But the origin of the standstill period is the Alstom dispute with Eurostar/Siemens about the new Eurostar train contract, and this indeed says 10 working days.
Here's the judgment: http://www.monckton.com/docs/general/AlstomvEurostar.pdf

Under the heading “Further Information” it said there would be a
10 working day standstill period during which no contract would be awarded to
Siemens (citing the authority of the pre-2009 regulations).

So that would make it Friday 28 June (or maybe the following Monday).

 

[Class377/5]

Or when the treasury announces the spending round from April 2015-2016 which fits in with the first train in service, which is due this week.

 

[Bald Rick]

'tis done my lieges.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/siemens-thameslink-deal-to-create-up-to-2000-new-jobs

 

[fgwrich]

'tis done my lieges.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/siemens-thameslink-deal-to-create-up-to-2000-new-jobs

Glad to hear it. After having a quick browse on Siemens website, Interestingly they've produced a diagram of the a 700 with a guide to where most of the parts are produced.

http://www.siemens.co.uk/careers/pool/images/siemens-thameslink-infographic.jpg

Think that could do with more media circulation - would be nice to see some of the anit siemens / 'bombardier is british' journalists eat some of their words (especially if they saw a diagram of where Bombardiers S Stock comes from)

 

[Class377/5]

'tis done my lieges.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/siemens-thameslink-deal-to-create-up-to-2000-new-jobs

Wait a minute, don't tell me the class 700 are another grey with blue doors Desiro fleet (following the 350/1 and now it seems the 350/4 according to Modern Railways).

 

[fgwrich]

Wait a minute, don't tell me the class 700 are another grey with blue doors Desiro fleet (following the 350/1 and now it seems the 350/4 according to Modern Railways).

That's what the images so far seem to show so (including the one in my post), with NX Style white lines on the each vehicle. I wonder if it'll be just a temporary thing or whether that's becoming a decided on livery?

Are the TPE 350/4s going to be grey with blue doors then Class377/5 or is that just a pre livery thing?

 

[Manchester77]

I think it's just like a generic computer livery because if its shown in the FCC livery or anything else would arouse suspicion

 

[Class377/5]

That's what the images so far seem to show so (including the one in my post), with NX Style white lines on the each vehicle. I wonder if it'll be just a temporary thing or whether that's becoming a decided on livery?

Are the TPE 350/4s going to be grey with blue doors then Class377/5 or is that just a pre livery thing?

I saw the NX type strips after I'd posted. Strange. I'm sure whoever wins the Thameslink franchise next year will insist on their livery.

As for the 350/4, been reported in new Modern Railways they are to be delivered in grey with blue doors. FTPE was still debating about putting their livery on but as the franchise has been extended its very likely however the livery won't be applied until after the units are commissioned and before the enter service.

 

[TEW]

Some of the pictures in the past have shown them in FCC livery.

 

[Class377/5]

I think it's just like a generic computer livery because if its shown in the FCC livery or anything else would arouse suspicion

Yet there's to images of them in FCC livery out there.

 

[Manchester77]

Meh well I don't know then t'was just a guess

 

[Class377/5]

Siemens has released a load more info

http://www.siemens.co.uk/en/news_pr...ransport-and-siemens-seal-thameslink-deal.htm

 

[D365]

'tis done my lieges.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/siemens-thameslink-deal-to-create-up-to-2000-new-jobs

Glad to hear it. After having a quick browse on Siemens website, Interestingly they've produced a diagram of the a 700 with a guide to where most of the parts are produced.

http://www.siemens.co.uk/careers/pool/images/siemens-thameslink-infographic.jpg

Think that could do with more media circulation - would be nice to see some of the anit siemens / 'bombardier is british' journalists eat some of their words (especially if they saw a diagram of where Bombardiers S Stock comes from)

Obviously the Daily Mail will ignore select facts and conveniently recirculate the 1,400 jobs lost at Derby due at all costs to our goverment's sheer incompetence at not choosing a British manufacturer for this massive and future-defining undertaking like any other sane country would do and the likes of which will never happen again... (yes, I know where the business originates)

Because if Siemens or perhaps even an Asian manufacturer owned the works they would be just as British. A shame all this really, but funny because at least the company was founded in Britain!

Have just begun reading the Siemens article linked by 377/5, and wow, largest ever contract for Siemens plc..!

Wonder how well Siemens will fare with this publicity programme?

 

[Manchester77]

Has this been linked its been in my bookmarks http://www.industry.siemens.co.uk/m...desiro_city/Documents/desiro-city-booklet.pdf