Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

[thelem]

Its a 30 year deal so there are complex contracts to do. You'll be hearing shortly more.

It was originally called Thameslink 2000, work actually started over four years ago, the preferred bidder was named nearly two years ago and the trains were meant to start entering service over a year ago. I think there's been plenty of time to sort out those complex contracts!

 

[jon0844]

Maybe there's a really nasty paper jam that needs to be fixed before the contracts can be printed?

 

[HSTEd]

Presumably everyone at DfT is terrified that the day after they sign the contract with Siemens Bombardier will announce enormous job losses at the Derby Works, which will generate enormous numbers of negative headlines in the press.

 

[Class377/5]

It was originally called Thameslink 2000, work actually started over four years ago, the preferred bidder was named nearly two years ago and the trains were meant to start entering service over a year ago. I think there's been plenty of time to sort out those complex contracts!

Your mixing different timetables there. The idea that the first train was in service required the DfT to have decided which trains well before the July 2011 date they actually did it.

The main delay is the banks wanting to re-arrange the finance for what is a 40 year contract. You can't just sort it out in weeks especially with the financial situation changing all the time.

Don't forget when started the TRSP in 2008, it was a different situation where borrowing billions of pounds then slowly paid back over decades wasn't seen as much of a problem. Now the banks are in a different situation and asking for such as long term deal insisted by the DfT has ensure every little deal has been raked over.

Maybe there's a really nasty paper jam that needs to be fixed before the contracts can be printed?

Every single part has a contract for spares for decades along with the depots etc etc. There's a lot of stuff to be checked through. Contracts are printed and being combed through by all sides.

 

[HSTEd]

Frankly this is why this sort of PFI type contract is a stupid idea.

 

[Class377/5]

Frankly this is why this sort of PFI type contract is a stupid idea.

Agreed. The ROSCO's believe if they had done it the trains would be sorted by now.

Crossrail going to public funds suggest they have learnt lessons tho IEP example doesn't seem to show that.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If they'd done the Thameslink upgrade in time for the original 2000 deadline they'd currently be planning a major mid life overhaul for the fleet wouldn't they?!

Presumably everyone at DfT is terrified that the day after they sign the contract with Siemens Bombardier will announce enormous job losses at the Derby Works, which will generate enormous numbers of negative headlines in the press.

Almost certainly true! The media, of course, would again ignore that Siemens employ more people in the UK than Bombardier...

 

[TEW]

Crossrail going to public funds suggest they have learnt lessons tho IEP example doesn't seem to show that.

Isn't Crossrail TfL led? They've obviously had there problems with PFI initiatives in the past so seem to have learnt there lessons. The DfT on the other hand.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Frankly this is why this sort of PFI type contract is a stupid idea.

DfT is buying trains, depots and maintenance to achieve a defined number of diagrams by various dates, with most of the financing and technical risk with the supplier - and lasting until 31 Mar 2045.
I'm not surprised the contracts are taking a while to be signed (on both sides), especially now the banks are not interested in risk.

 

[HSTEd]

DfT is buying trains, depots and maintenance to achieve a defined number of diagrams by various dates, with most of the financing and technical risk with the supplier - and lasting until 31 Mar 2045.
I'm not surprised the contracts are taking a while to be signed (on both sides), especially now the banks are not interested in risk.

Except while the supplier is a limited liability subsidiary... they don't really take all the risk, since if it comes down to it the parent company can just allow the subsidiary to go bust.

Buying Maintenance and spare parts services for the next 30 years like this is stupid, it locks you into the equipment that is fitted now or that the maintainer deigns to agree to fitting.

The trains should be purchased outright without all these attached services.

 

[Class377/5]

DfT is buying trains, depots and maintenance to achieve a defined number of diagrams by various dates, with most of the financing and technical risk with the supplier - and lasting until 31 Mar 2045.
I'm not surprised the contracts are taking a while to be signed (on both sides), especially now the banks are not interested in risk.

Er no they are not.

DfT is buying nothing. The Thameslink TOC will rent the trains off Siemens. This fee is the basis of clawing back the money over the long term project. The banks are lending the money for the units to be build and will be paid back.

This is why reliability was key as the more the trains failed the less money the TOC would pay and damage the pay back.

The depots are Siemens sites along with the trains. They are just borrowed by the TOC.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Er no they are not.

DfT is buying nothing. The Thameslink TOC will rent the trains off Siemens. This fee is the basis of clawing back the money over the long term project. The banks are lending the money for the units to be build and will be paid back.
This is why reliability was key as the more the trains failed the less money the TOC would pay and damage the pay back.
The depots are Siemens sites along with the trains. They are just borrowed by the TOC.

I think we are arguing about the same thing.
It's a service contract that is being "bought".

 

[Class377/5]

I think we are arguing about the same thing.
It's a service contract that is being "bought".

Not quite sure then why you put this?

DfT is buying trains, depots and maintenance to achieve a defined number of diagrams by various dates, with most of the financing and technical risk with the supplier - and lasting until 31 Mar 2045.
I'm not surprised the contracts are taking a while to be signed (on both sides), especially now the banks are not interested in risk.

DfT is buying nothing. The TOC rents filled diagrams which in turns pays Siemens who look after the fleet, depots and maintenance staff.

 

[Pumbaa]

DfT is buying nothing. The TOC rents filled diagrams which in turns pays Siemens who look after the fleet, depots and maintenance staff.

Yes they are - 'buy' is being used here (and quite correctly) with a commercial angle. The service is being bought for a fixed period at a fixed price. That is a purchase, a sale, a contract, whatever.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes they are - 'buy' is being used here (and quite correctly) with a commercial angle. The service is being bought for a fixed period at a fixed price. That is a purchase, a sale, a contract, whatever.

They are buying a contract to be supplied with working trains not buying trains. And its the TOC entering agreement not the DfT. Sorry I completely disagree with you on this and don't see your point at all.

Buy means you own something. Nowhere is DfT buying or owning trains. Its allowing the TOC to enter an agreement to rent the trains. Rent is very different from buying despite what you've stated.

 

[HSTEd]

The DfT is the guarantor on the contract since it will almost certainly outlast the franchisee.

 

[Pumbaa]

They are buying a contract to be supplied with working trains not buying trains. And its the TOC entering agreement not the DfT. Sorry I completely disagree with you on this and don't see your point at all.

Buy means you own something. Nowhere is DfT buying or owning trains. Its allowing the TOC to enter an agreement to rent the trains. Rent is very different from buying despite what you've stated.

Not necessarily. I pay x amount a month for internet to my house. I have bought a contract for a predetermined price, for a predetermined period of time. I may not necessarily 'own' the internet, the router, the cabling etc, but I have still 'bought' the service.

Maybe leave the contracts and the important stuff to the people who know what they're talking about, and not just relying on second hand gossip from your colleagues?

 

[westcoaster]

Knock knock word on the street is deal done you heard it here first lol.

 

[HSTEd]

In that case, prepare for the job loss announcement from the Derby Works.

 

[jon0844]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ow-as-Siemens-wins-1.6bn-Thameslink-deal.html

Bombardier blow as Siemens wins £1.6bn Thameslink deal

Ministers are embroiled in a jobs for British workers row after confirming that Siemens had won the £1.6bn contract to build rolling stock for the Thameslink line.

Let the fun begin...

Bombardier, the last British-based train maker, announced 1,400 job cuts at its Derby plant when it was first announced that it had lost the deal.

Wasn't it 1,000 or 1,100 job cuts anyway - so really not 1,400 cuts just because of this? but, hey, it's easy to forget the facts... or just quote what Bombardier's PR company will be telling to the media. Clearly Siemens needs to step up its game and point out that there will be rather a lot of UK jobs from this deal - even if they might be elsewhere in the UK.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure I understand

Was there still a chance they weren't going to be built by Siemens?

 

[jon0844]

Was there still a chance they weren't going to be built by Siemens?

I can't see how, unless Siemens pulled out - which I suppose was always a (very small) possibility.

While I'm sure Bombardier will ultimately want to sell up one day for the huge money from a property developer, surely it has quite a lot of work to keep it going? If it ever decided to go after the massive market for train refurbishments (like it used to), then there must be plenty of rolling stock in the UK to keep it going until the next round of new build work.

As a passenger, having seen the problems for the 09 Stock, the S Stock, the 377/5s and more recently the state of the 379s, I am VERY glad that Bombardier won't make the trains I'll be using for the next 30-40 years! Siemens might not be perfect and there will be teething problems I have no doubt, but overall I think I am now going to be getting a much more reliable and long-lasting train.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought they said that 400 permanent staff could potentially go on top of 50 permanent staff and 980 temporary staff that would go whether they won it or not (in the event many (most?) jobs wernt lost as they got other contracts here and there). Local press and unions seems to like using the 1,400 figure and ignoring the 1,000 which were already announced before the contract decision.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bombardier-to-cut-1400-train-jobs-2307229.html

 

[ainsworth74]

Yep that's my understanding. They were going lay off 1,000 (near enough) workers even if they'd won the contract so the actual job losses due to the losing the contract are closer to 400. It's a smart piece of spin by the local press/unions because they're not wrong, 1,400 jobs are going to go it's just that most of them have nothing to do with the loss of the contract.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Brief announcement now on DfT web site: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thameslink-deal-close-to-completion

The deal to build 1,140 new carriages for use on the Thameslink rail line came a step closer to completion today (14 June 2013) as the Department for Transport confirmed its decision to award the £1.6 billion contract to a consortium led by train manufacturer Siemens.

Before the contract award can take place there will now be a pause known as the Alcatel standstill period which will last at least 10 days

 

[Brunel]

All about the trains, what about the staff? Currently, maintenance staff currently working for the TOC get the benefits of a TOC, ie final salary pension, reduced price travel, etc. no doubt (like IEP) when staff go across to Siemens, that all goes. So the Government is happy about less people in the 'old' BR pension and will break the Unions monopoly. Which is why these IEP and Thameslink schemes exsist.

 

[chris11256]

Maybe loosing the contract will be a good time. Hoping it will get Bombardier to up their game for the Crossrail contract!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

notice it is 60 carriages fewer than the original announcement while £200m more expensive...

 

[Class377/5]

notice it is 60 carriages fewer than the original announcement while £200m more expensive...

It was never confirmed at 1,200 carriages, that was a rounded up figure than was never official.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was never confirmed at 1,200 carriages, that was a rounded up figure than was never official.

Further back still, in the 2008 DfT 'Rolling Stock plan', the Thameslink order was expected to be 'up to 1300' vehicles.

So pretty much meaningless numbers at the time, as they were still years away from deciding on the routes, and the balance of 8 and 12 car trains.