Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a proper procurement process but presumably the DfT are using Southern to procure the trains even though they aren't for their network because they can specify compatibility with their current fleet which in effect makes Bombardier a shoe in.

Well if true that's pretty shameful.
Why should a TOC which might not ever operate the trains be able to specify what must be run by another (future) TOC in a completely different part of the country?
Surely there must be a competition based on a generic spec (110mph go anywhere, basically) and not just "more 377s please".

 

[TEW]

Is there more to this than meets the eye? For example what happens if the Thameslink Order breaks down, these vehicles could then be used there....

Not convinced that this may well be a way to allow Bombardier in by the back door.

Very unlikely they will be suitable for Thameslink services. These are more than likely going to be off the shelf EMUs so they can be built quickly. The Thameslink EMUs are of a brand new design including ATO to allow for the high frequency needed in the peaks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if true that's pretty shameful.
Why should a TOC which might not ever operate the trains be able to specify what must be run by another (future) TOC in a completely different part of the country?
Surely there must be a competition based on a generic spec (110mph go anywhere, basically) and not just "more 377s please".

There is a good reason for the EMUs to be compatible with 377s though. They are likely going to be used on Thameslink services in the short term, and compatibility with at least one of the fleets already in service on Thameslink makes sense.

 

[43074]

Surely there must be a competition based on a generic spec (110mph go anywhere, basically) and not just "more 377s please".

Sounds like something similar to a 350/450 Desiro to be honest, although I'm sure Bombardier (in the UK or abroad) could produce something for the UK market that can go at 110mph and isn't an Electrostar (not to say an Electrostar can't do 110mph, because it would have done in test).

Mind you, room for informed speculation here.

 

[tbtc]

Well if true that's pretty shameful.
Why should a TOC which might not ever operate the trains be able to specify what must be run by another (future) TOC in a completely different part of the country?

It's not really Southern deciding to order these EMUs though - it's the Government using the Southern order as a trojan horse to get some "standard" DMUs ordered for a growing railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well if true that's pretty shameful.
Why should a TOC which might not ever operate the trains be able to specify what must be run by another (future) TOC in a completely different part of the country?

I don't recall too many major complaints when this was done to get an extra set of 350s tagged onto LM's order for use by TPE in 'another part of the country'. It's a precedent that has already benefitted Siemens, so why not do the same now?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't recall too many major complaints when this was done to get an extra set of 350s tagged onto LM's order for use by TPE in 'another part of the country'. It's a precedent that has already benefitted Siemens, so why not do the same now?

That was done because LM had open options for more 350s, and both LM and TP are Desiro operations.
Similarly, there's no problem in SN ordering compatible Bombardier trains for itself (or for the future "TSGN" operation), although the new Thameslink fleet will be from Siemens so that complicates things.
But I would have thought the TP, MML and GW operations would prefer to order their own trains to meet local needs.
There are some big issues here (depots, maintenance, ROSCOs etc).
Let's say SN order Bombardier. Fine for them.
But if TP and Northern end up with these trains it perpetuates the "zoo" of different types in the north, with multiple depots and maintenance regimes.

 

[ert47]

I don't recall too many major complaints when this was done to get an extra set of 350s tagged onto LM's order for use by TPE in 'another part of the country'. It's a precedent that has already benefitted Siemens, so why not do the same now?

That was done because LM had open options for more 350s, and both LM and TP are Desiro operations.
Similarly, there's no problem in SN ordering compatible Bombardier trains for itself (or for the future "TSGN" operation), although the new Thameslink fleet will be from Siemens so that complicates things.
But I would have thought the TP, MML and GW operations would prefer to order their own trains to meet local needs.
There are some big issues here (depots, maintenance, ROSCOs etc).
Let's say SN order Bombardier. Fine for them.
But if TP and Northern end up with these trains it perpetuates the "zoo" of different types in the north, with multiple depots and maintenance regimes.

Some of these new trains could end up working some South Eastern services since they'll be part of the new franchise in future (doubt the 375s and 377s are software compatible though).

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well if true that's pretty shameful.
Why should a TOC which might not ever operate the trains be able to specify what must be run by another (future) TOC in a completely different part of the country?
Surely there must be a competition based on a generic spec (110mph go anywhere, basically) and not just "more 377s please".

I think the 377s will operate on Thameslink, releasing 319s for up north. Southern is to merge with Thameslink to create a larger franchise. So how exactly is this shameful?

 

[Wath Yard]

The British Government spending British tax payer's money securing British jobs building trains for Britain. It's a disgrace!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the 377s will operate on Thameslink, releasing 319s for up north. Southern is to merge with Thameslink to create a larger franchise. So how exactly is this shameful?

The numbers quoted are 40 cars now, then another 116 up to 256.
The 40-car order is an existing option with Bombardier so no issues there.
However the 116-256 would be a completely new order, for (say) 64x4-car trains.
As I understand it this will have to go open tender under EU rules.

The British Government spending British tax payer's money securing British jobs building trains for Britain. It's a disgrace!

As Gordon Brown found out, and I'm sure you know, it is not as simple as that.
The TOC, GoVia, is a private concern and last time I looked was Anglo-French. There's no taxpayer money involved (not up front, anyway).
The DfT announcement talks about the overall order "helping to secure British jobs", but I am pretty sure this relates just to the initial 40-car 377 element, not the rest of it, until somebody wins a competition.
I'm more interested that there should be a competition than who wins.

And to put the tin lid on it, this seems like another mega-order for the South-East to ensure that us "oop north" get our just desserts - 30-year-old 319s.

 

[Wath Yard]

I'm more interested that there should be a competition than who wins.

I'm sure you are, and there will be one of sorts. A competition stating they must be compatible with existing Southern units.

BTW your recollection of the LM/TPE order gifted to Siemens is incorrect. It wasn't excercising an option, it was a new procurement worded in such a way that the only winner could be Siemens. This newly announced order will be similarly worded so the only winner can be Bombardier. Result (for most people).

The TOC, GoVia, is a private concern and last time I looked was Anglo-French.

GoVia are doing what the DfT has asked them to; they've explicitly stated that is what they are doing. It isn't obvious what they're getting out of the arrangement but they certainly aren't going to order up to 256 carriages because the Southern franchise needs or is getting them.

 

[jon0844]

And to put the tin lid on it, this seems like another mega-order for the South-East to ensure that us "oop north" get our just desserts - 30-year-old 319s.

We get shiny new plastic trains that will fall apart after 30 days, while someone gets newly refurbished 319s that will last another 30 years!!

 

[Class377/5]

GoVia are doing what the DfT has asked them to; they've explicitly stated that is what they are doing. It isn't obvious what they're getting out of the arrangement but they certainly aren't going to order up to 256 carriages because the Southern franchise needs or is getting them.

Looking good in the eyes of the DfT prior to having thier franchise taken over by another and maybe an extension while franchise mess is sorted out?

And to put the tin lid on it, this seems like another mega-order for the South-East to ensure that us "oop north" get our just desserts - 30-year-old 319s.

What you get when your the only franchise making the DfT money and they screw around with thier own plans and threatened with looking stupid.

 

[YorkshireBear]

IT certainly allays many of the fears around that there will be wires in the NW years before any stocks shows up to operate on it!

 

[12CSVT]

We get shiny new plastic trains that will fall apart after 30 days, while someone gets newly refurbished 319s that will last another 30 years!!

Having seen the state of some of the 319s, surely it is only a matter of time before some (if not most) of them are ready for a one way trip to Rotherham / Stockton / Kingsbury.

 

[West Ruislip]

First look at the 377/6:

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/p793657826

 

[Skimble19]

Is it just me, or does that look like a new design of seat.. Looks awfully similar to the backs of those on the 376s..!

 

[43074]

Is it just me, or does that look like a new design of seat.. Looks awfully similar to the backs of those on the 376s..!

Looks more like those on ATW's refurbished Loco Hauled set.
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On another note, the 116 vehicles Southern are procuring will be used on Thameslink, then cascaded to other routes being electrified under HLOS. More details here: http://www.rail.co/2012/12/21/southern-launches-116-vehicle-procurement-competition/

Southern has launched a procurement competition for 116 electric vehicles with an option for a further 140.

The trains could be used on Thameslink routes before being cascaded to newly-electrified HLOS routes as new Siemens rolling stock is introduced.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having seen the state of some of the 319s, surely it is only a matter of time before some (if not most) of them are ready for a one way trip to Rotherham / Stockton / Kingsbury.

We can only hope!

 

[northwichcat]

Rumours were that GW needed 110mph units tho.

I thought 110mph running was a 2019-2024 CP aspiration subject to future demand where 4 car class 319s would be used initially and possibly 5 car commuter IEP or a 110mph capable 5 car EMU replacing them.

 

[HSTEd]

We are probably looking at 125mph, not 110mph, being required for GW commuter trains.

Running a two track railway between Maidenhead and Paddington is not going to be fun otherwise.

 

[D365]

On another note, the 116 vehicles Southern are procuring will be used on Thameslink, then cascaded to other routes being electrified under HLOS. More details here: http://www.rail.co/2012/12/21/southern-launches-116-vehicle-procurement-competition/

Southern has launched a procurement competition for 116 electric vehicles with an option for a further 140.

The trains could be used on Thameslink routes before being cascaded to newly-electrified HLOS routes as new Siemens rolling stock is introduced.

The article says could, not will. On another note, yet another 40 carriages (10 4-car) may be added? The full order would take it to 256 carriages, aka 64 4-car. This would make a significant inroad into the 86-strong 319 fleet, and when the real Thameslink stock comes around, may be handy for replacing older EMUs elsewhere.

We are probably looking at 125mph, not 110mph, being required for GW commuter trains.

Running a two track railway between Maidenhead and Paddington is not going to be fun otherwise.

One could assume IEP, perhaps.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought 110mph running was a 2019-2024 CP aspiration subject to future demand where 4 car class 319s would be used initially and possibly 5 car commuter IEP or a 110mph capable 5 car EMU replacing them.

No, it is in the ITT for the new GW franchise as probably required from Dec 2016. I posted the relevant info a few days ago in the GW electrification thread, so that it could be read in its full context:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1295828&postcount=13

 

[MCR247]

Looks more like those on ATW's refurbished Loco Hauled set.

They look a bit thin to be grammer seats? They could be though

The 376 seats were the first to come to mind, but I really hope they aren't

 

[northwichcat]

No, it is in the ITT for the new GW franchise as probably required from Dec 2016. I posted the relevant info a few days ago in the GW electrification thread, so that it could be read in its full context:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1295828&postcount=13

OK although as you say in that post it doesn't seem to be worded like it's a must have requirement. Also with mentioning for both diesel and electric units, what 110mph DMU or DEMU units are available? Maybe class 180s replaced by IEP (that apparently would be too long - given I was told 4 carriages was too long for the Thames Valley routes that won't be electrified the other day) or maybe re-engineered class 185s could run at 110mph - but they may not be released in time.

 

[Rational Plan]

In Modern Rail, it confirmed that these orders were to permit stock cascades to continue, due to the delay in the Thameslinks contract. These new units would not stay with Southern though and would likely be cascaded again to London Midland or TPE.

 

[fgwrich]

In Modern Rail, it confirmed that these orders were to permit stock cascades to continue, due to the delay in the Thameslinks contract. These new units would not stay with Southern though and would likely be cascaded again to London Midland or TPE.

Two great operators to transfer rolling stock to then. Both the majority of London Midlands & FTPEs fleet are Siemens products - nothing like standardising a fleet these days then?

 

[sprinterguy]

Two great operators to transfer rolling stock to then. Both the majority of London Midlands & FTPEs fleet are Siemens products - nothing like standardising a fleet these days then?

It hasn't been confirmed that the 116 + 140 carriage order won't be Siemens products as far as I know, however it would admittedly be more logical for these additional trains to come from Bombardier, given that Southern, who will operate them initially as part of the larger TGSN franchise, operate a large squadron fleet of Electrostars.

I don't think that the 377/6 order is destined for anywhere other than the Southern Metro network at any future point.

 

[ert47]

SWT are looking for another 100 extra vehicles. Since the majority of their rolling stock is Siemens based, you never know...

 

[tbtc]

Two great operators to transfer rolling stock to then. Both the majority of London Midlands & FTPEs fleet are Siemens products - nothing like standardising a fleet these days then?

The majority of London Midland's EMU fleet are Siemens products, but they run a lot of DMUs too.

 

[ainsworth74]

however it would admittedly be more logical for these additional trains to come from Bombardier, given that Southern, who will operate them initially as part of the larger TGSN franchise, operate a large squadron fleet of Electrostars.

Or you could go the other way and say that seeing as the T part of TSGN will be getting a dedicated Siemens product in the future that they might as well get one now to start with.