Thameslink Railway performance

[asylumxl]

So, I've got just over 3 weeks of data now and have been keeping an eye on the PPM using Raildar. I've plotted it on a graph. Govia's target for 2014/15 is 89.1% PPM, shown as an orange line, while the actual PPM for each day is shown in blue.

THe current average PPM is 76.4%. Not a very good show to be honest. GOvia Thameslink has only met the target PPM once in this time period.

(P.S. Please ignore "axis titles" )

 

[SF-02]

I've been Thameslink a lot recently and it's been very bad. I also use southeastern which is similarly terrible. A lot is not the TOCs fault of course. Lack of trains doesn't help either.

I suppose one positive is that at least Thameslink are getting lots of new stock soon along with Southern to cater for growing passenger numbers. Makes disruption easier to handle to. Southeastern are getting nothing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Southeastern are getting nothing.

Except for 25 x 4 car 377s from Southern that we definitely know about.

They may yet turn out to be the logical home for the surplus 365s from GN - but no-one can say for sure yet...

 

[SF-02]

365s may be the only hope anytime soon. SE need trains long before Dec 2017 which is when 377/1s may be coming. The London Bridge rebuild begins in Janaury - 3 platforms out of 6 closed and service cuts are coming in for metro routes. Even with other trains extended the figures don't add up to maintain capacity let alone increase in coming years, which given population growth in SE London & Kent is not great.

There's just about enough stock for now with no problems. However the Lewisham issue with the cracked rail and altered services now see people left behind regularly on some lines with the service changes. There's not enough stock to cover train defects, passenger growth, and major service changes now happening. Waiting until pretty much 2018 is pushing things too far I fear. By then Crossrail will be almost running and less need for stock just as it arrives.

 

[Class377/5]

There's rumors of SE getting more stock much sooner than 2017.

 

[jon0844]

There's rumors of SE getting more stock much sooner than 2017.

That sounds ominous. Lock your depots, SE might be planning a heist. Do they still have the keys for the 365s they gave up?




* Given I'm joking, nobody needs point out that they would need converting back for DC operation.

 

[hwl]

That sounds ominous. Lock your depots, SE might be planning a heist. Do they still have the keys for the 365s they gave up?




* Given I'm joking, nobody needs point out that they would need converting back for DC operation.

The cascade plan was redacted from the public version of the TSGN contract (i.e. don't Joke! ) so the 365s could well be going earlier than planned if less 319s are needed initially due to delays in North-West Electrification?

The other option is someone makes use of the extra option on the remaining 8? 387s. Given SE might not want a micro fleet, Southern take an extra 8x 387 and cascade 8 more 377s to SE but start cascading earlier than the batch of 25?

Also Scot rail looking for 7x 321s everyone looking for stock than GN has!

Makes a bit more sense why it might have been redacted now.

 

[Class377/5]

That sounds ominous. Lock your depots, SE might be planning a heist. Do they still have the keys for the 365s they gave up?

* Given I'm joking, nobody needs point out that they would need converting back for DC operation.

Its already got arrangements for the stick it's getting. Two seem to be for the new Maidstone East to Blackfriars service.

 

[AM9]

The cascade plan was redacted from the public version of the TSGN contract (i.e. don't Joke! ) so the 365s could well be going earlier than planned if less 319s are needed initially due to delays in North-West Electrification?

The other option is someone makes use of the extra option on the remaining 8? 387s. Given SE might not want a micro fleet, Southern take an extra 8x 387 and cascade 8 more 377s to SE but start cascading earlier than the batch of 25?

Also Scot rail looking for 7x 321s everyone looking for stock than GN has!

Makes a bit more sense why it might have been redacted now.

Why would the delayed release of 319s affect the transfer of 365s?

 

[Class377/5]

Why would the delayed release of 319s affect the transfer of 365s?

Because it would mean 377/5 are released early which replace the 365s.

 

[Abpj17]

I look forward to hearing how they deal with your delay claim, since they rejected mine claiming I could have got to London in x time had I got y train that never stopped at Kentish Town...

they've ignored it -_- I've just emailed to ask why no reply within 20 days...how *did* they get back to you?

 

[21C101]

Bit of a fail today.

15.07 ex Brighton was about 20 late arriving at Blackfriars (due 16.08). This train runs fast from St Pan to St Albans then all stations.

As a result it turned up behind the 16.18 from Elephant (due 16.22 at Blackfriars). This train calls only at St Albans, Harp, Luton, Flitwick, Bedford.

Was on the 16.18 ex Elephant. Nothing out of the ordinary till we get to St Albans, then Driver announced that it would additionally call at Leagrave and Harlington (fat lot of good for all the people going to Leagrqave and Harlington from London, deciding to do that then was) and gets shunted onto the slow at Harlington.

After a crawl behind a stopper to Luton Airport; the 15.07 ex Brighton, still on the fast overtakes us outside Luton Airport as we approach it. Then we overtake it on the slow line as the 15.07 stopped as booked to at the Airport.

So we on the ex elephant arrive first in Luton Platform 3 (by now about 6 late) and are now to call additonally at Leagrave and Harlington as well as Flitwick and Bedford. Then the 15.07 ex Brighton arrives at Luton in platform 5 and nearly everyone gets off (phone check reveals that its been changed to run fast to Bedford only). No sooner than everyones off it on platform 5 than the ex Elephant sets off from platform 3 for all stations to Bedford, before anyone could get over the footbridge from platform 5 to 3, without any of the pax for Leagrave, Harlington & Flitwick that were booted off the 15.07 from Brighton.

Still, I'm, sure by missing out the booked calls at Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick, the 15.07 had a fighting chance of avoiding arrival at Bedford more than 10 minutes late. So thats all right then.

hock:

 

[John Webb]

I was working at St Albans South box this afternoon and kept hearing announcements to the effect that there were delays and cancellations due to a faulty train "near Brighton".

Rather unusually an ECS electric stock train shot through on the down fast around 15:00 - if trains from Brighton were being delayed I wonder why this wasn't used as a 'fill-in' from at least St Pancras northward.

 

[Abpj17]

Bit of a fail today.

...

Yup - nothing terribly unusual The Leagrave and Harlington commuters are generally a hardy lot and need to have their wits about them to keep up with the timetabled calling patterns and some of the odd amendments.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Which is why, if southbound services are delayed north of St.Pancras, that St.Pancras will issue not to stop orders, so passengers joining at stations through the core know where the train is or isn't stopping and can change at either East Croydon or Gatwick for intermediate stations thereof.
Otherwise it is the equivelant of telling Haywards Heath to run a stopping service fast to Brighton and then watch Southern's semi fast Brighton train pass through, when you could have changed at Gatwick instead.

 

[387star]

Except for 25 x 4 car 377s from Southern that we definitely know about.

They may yet turn out to be the logical home for the surplus 365s from GN - but no-one can say for sure yet...

The best in the fleet with decent low density seating as well

 

[The Box Photter]

Rather worryingly, the 12-car trains seem to be most delay-prone en-route, possibly because passengers find it difficult to alight and board at the same time!

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

This causes pathing issues north of Luton when it needs to move from down fast to down slow immediately after Leagrave station. Often it gets caught behind 2W57 or 1T40, both of which call all-stations to Bedford. That's what happened tonight.

Did anyone take time to "Meet the Managers" this morning at Blackfriars?

 

[21C101]

Rather worryingly, the 12-car trains seem to be most delay-prone en-route, possibly because passengers find it difficult to alight and board at the same time!

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

This causes pathing issues north of Luton when it needs to move from down fast to down slow immediately after Leagrave station. Often it gets caught behind 2W57 or 1T40, both of which call all-stations to Bedford. That's what happened tonight.

Did anyone take time to "Meet the Managers" this morning at Blackfriars?

Can't see that. North of London the 377s are timetabled 2 minutes quicker from St Pan to St Albans than 319s and race between stations so fast they often sit there for a minute or two.

Maybe 2W57 gets stuck behind something else late running?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

Late from Haywards Heath today due to late running ex East Coast, but it was on time at Blackfriars.

1T83 in the morning is a 12 car from Brighton, it is the most heavily loaded Thameslink service from Brighton, and runs well, until it gets close to London Bridge, unless there are other issues on the mainline, so no, 12 car 377's are not a problem.

 

[Abpj17]

Rather worryingly, the 12-car trains seem to be most delay-prone en-route, possibly because passengers find it difficult to alight and board at the same time!

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

This causes pathing issues north of Luton when it needs to move from down fast to down slow immediately after Leagrave station. Often it gets caught behind 2W57 or 1T40, both of which call all-stations to Bedford. That's what happened tonight.

Did anyone take time to "Meet the Managers" this morning at Blackfriars?

Yeah, I'm not sure that mirrors experience either. The whatever-the-right-term is trains with the doors being slow to open due to GPS problems are the only ones with consistent delays. And the 4-car ones are sometimes held up to allow passengers to run down the right end of the platform (particularly acute at Blackfriars)

I didn't see meet the manager's - it finishes before I usually go through B.

 

[W230]

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

Often (although not always) you are held outside Preston Park to allow a late running ECS Gatwick Express out (5U05). This has happened to me twice recently when I've had this job. I've also been held at Haywards Heath to wait for it to pass when it left behind me and often get stuck in congestion leading up towards Balcombe, then again at Gatwick Airport waiting for 1U05 to depart for Victoria (the same train that delayed me at Preston Park). The 442's are sooo slow that by the time you get to Stoats Nest and Purley you begin catching it. Purley is double blocked anyway so you end up being on restricted signals if you're catching it up.

You also often get held up at East Croydon waiting for 1A30 to cross in front of you if it has left Victoria late. A late arrival at Norwood Junction then? Lovely, wait for 9D49 Overground service to go in front of you as you're routed via Crystal Palace (to be fair this train is more often than not delayed by 1W90).

By this point it can often become a struggle round south London. All you need is one or more of the services that cross in front of you to be more than a minute late and it has an impact. The Sutton - Victoria service (2S55) is a stopper running just in front and is often late meaning you crawl into West Norwood, prior to going across the junction. Next up, you get held at Herne Hill, waiting for a late running Victoria - Orpington (2M08). There is a little waiting time thrown in at Blackfriars which can help you come back RT if you're around 3 late but if not or you have lost your path then you've had it north side of the river!

This causes pathing issues north of Luton when it needs to move from down fast to down slow immediately after Leagrave station. Often it gets caught behind 2W57 or 1T40, both of which call all-stations to Bedford. That's what happened tonight.

Correct. The main issues being that the signaller will not delay the southbound EMT service (1C67) for you to cross to the slows. In this case it's touch and go whether you get across in front of the Bedford stoppers you mentioned earlier.

So don't worry. I regularly work this train and feel your pain. There is nothing more frustrating coasting along on the slows at 45mph after Leagrave because you keep catching up stoppers in front. Especially as you then end up held outside Bedford because the other units have made it in first and 1W90 is booked straight into Jowett, limiting you to platforms 1 or 2.

 

[asylumxl]

In case anyone is interested, with the data I've logged so far Govia Thameslink has only reached the PPM target twice in the space of 39 days with an average PPM of 77.78%.

 

[Dom395]

That's franchising for you! All those saying get rid of FCC?

Welcome to square one!

lolol

 

[21C101]

lolol

Come back FCC all is forgiven has even been heard from pax in these parts. GTR even seem to have lost their early enthusiasm for manning the barriers at Blackfriars in the late afternoon.

To be fair, mid september is a horrible time to have to take over. Aside from one or two bods at the top, I find it hard to believe that anyone is doing anything different from before other than wearing new uniforms.

 

[westcoaster]

Rather worryingly, the 12-car trains seem to be most delay-prone en-route, possibly because passengers find it difficult to alight and board at the same time!

Anecdotal evidence I know, but train 1W90 the 16.30 Brighton to Bedford habitually loses between 2 and 5 minutes between Preston park and Gatwick. It often departs Gatwick late and can be up to 10 mins late by the time it reaches Blackfriars.

This causes pathing issues north of Luton when it needs to move from down fast to down slow immediately after Leagrave station. Often it gets caught behind 2W57 or 1T40, both of which call all-stations to Bedford. That's what happened tonight.

Did anyone take time to "Meet the Managers" this morning at Blackfriars?

I find a lot of the odd minutes are lost at three bridges and gatwick, these add up to the usual 5 late into easy Croydon.

Three bridges the delay is down to the dispatch procedure, they use bat and RA utilising one person, the RA button is about 6 cars back from the cab, hence the wait to walk back and one final check.

Gatwick since p7 opened and new staff appeared it's just so slow, today on a 377 I'm watching boarding on the onboard monitors and it took 45-50 seconds after the last person had boarded before they started to dispatch me.

This is not just a one of but most days.

 

[Abpj17]

In case anyone is interested, with the data I've logged so far Govia Thameslink has only reached the PPM target twice in the space of 39 days with an average PPM of 77.78%.

How often did FCC (and predecessor) reach it?

It's not been a perfect week though - I was caught up in travel disruption this evening. Firstly, the DLR wasn't running (which was a right pain) - Jubliee to London Bridge is increasingly less of an option with trains going via E&C instead.

Then at Blackfriars there were references to overhead line problems - and the ordering of the trains was really unfortunately. The passengers don't get enough information to make an informed decision (I decided not to get a semi-fast as it wasn't stopping at my station, would have needed to change and wait at Harpende - but it had loads of seats. I was hoping for the next semi-fast but it was four coaches so of course had no seats -_-)

 

[jon0844]

Aside from one or two bods at the top, I find it hard to believe that anyone is doing anything different from before other than wearing new uniforms.

The 317s now welcome you aboard the train at every single service and hardly shut up, including details about Oyster, penalty fares, following on Twitter and getting tickets on the website. Most of the screens are still broken or flickering, but I'm yet to be on a train where they've not been in use.

I also noticed today that they had notices about the new car park at Hatfield which had the incorrect URL of greatnorthern.co.uk (and was covered up with white paper) on it. Whoops.

 

[21C101]

The 317s now welcome you aboard the train at every single service and hardly shut up, including details about Oyster, penalty fares, following on Twitter and getting tickets on the website. Most of the screens are still broken or flickering, but I'm yet to be on a train where they've not been in use.

I also noticed today that they had notices about the new car park at Hatfield which had the incorrect URL of greatnorthern.co.uk (and was covered up with white paper) on it. Whoops.

I suppose its the element of distraction. If everyone is busy sorting out new uniforms, contact details, posters, websites etc. there is going to be less focus on normal duties, and the wheels start to come off, especially when you have to do it at the start of leaf fall season.

They really ought to have done the changeover in mid July when things were quieter.

 

[TUC]

It's odd that Go Ahead are one of the most creative and well run bus operators but seem to struggle to get the same magic into their rail operations.

 

[philjo]

The 317s now welcome you aboard the train at every single service and hardly shut up, including details about Oyster, penalty fares, following on Twitter and getting tickets on the website. Most of the screens are still broken or flickering, but I'm yet to be on a train where they've not been in use.

The announcements on some of the 317s get louder during the announcement - not sure if this is a fault or designed to stop people sleeping!

If you get on at the starting station, you get the announcement in full 3 times.
They do now announce that the train will be dividing at Letchworth/Royston/Cambridge etc, but tend to repeat this annoucnement at random intervals along the line.
The other day it wasn't set properly as I was on a train towards Cambridge but the announcements were saying it was the train to Kings Cross - then announcing the previous station just after we had left it, with the announcement getting longer after each stop along the line. one person got on at Stevenage (platform 4) , saw the screen (which was one of the few workign properly!) said next station is Welwyn North (the system thought we were at Knebworth) & promptly got off again.