Thameslink Railway performance

[Mutant Lemming]

And you have based that on a few weeks of them bedding in, trying to implement a new way of doing stuff with regards to info passing on.

Lets face it, it is a bedding in process, Govia obviously dont want it to be this bad but implementing new ideas and ways of doing things will fall down at times. And also whos to say that internally there may be a few rogues who want to trip them up?

Speak about it in a years time and if they are still being **** then get back to me and ill probably agree but until then just let it unfold.

Would agree but the current difficulties should be noted and we can ascertain in due course whether they are teething troubles or become ongoing.

 

[asylumxl]

I assume you've replied saying words to the effect of "no, I couldn't, it didn't stop at Kentish Town"

(I've had in the past FirstGroup TOCs misreading delay repay requests and assuming they're invalid when they're not, so this is hardly an issue unique to Govia. Not that I'm defending them, I'm remaining neutral until I have some statistics )

Yes I have. I've yet to receive a reply and knowing them, probably won't.
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Would agree but the current difficulties should be noted and we can ascertain in due course whether they are teething troubles or become ongoing.

Couldn't agree more. That's why I'm keeping an eye on it, to see whether it's just me or a reality.

To be honest my view of Govia is somewhat tainted by remembering the original Thameslink franchise. First was an absolute breath of fresh air in comparison.

 

[Clip]

Would agree but the current difficulties should be noted and we can ascertain in due course whether they are teething troubles or become ongoing.

They will be teething troubles.

If the infrastructure holds up and when the bridge is sorted then I hope to see posts praising them

 

[Abpj17]

Would agree but the current difficulties should be noted and we can ascertain in due course whether they are teething troubles or become ongoing.

Basically... the performance of the line is notoriously poor and the operator can exacerbate that - we enjoy moaning about it (And a communal diary is helpful for the one year anniversary review

The Labour parliamentary candidate (and former MP) for Hendon believes there was a '"missed opportunity" and that the franchise should have become part of the TfL London Overground network. Not quite sure how that would work as I think Bedford and Brighton would be a little beyond TfL's remit.

He may have a point. The two airports make it a special case. Oyster is due to go out to Luton Airport, Bedford isn't that much more of a stretch. Same case could apply to Gatwick (can't remember if that is agreed for Oyster yet or not)

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure what new ideas Govia has/had but many seem to have been, so far, rather misguided. What's more, in recent months it seems FCC had really improved how it provided information during disruption.

Now we have a number of changes, which includes adding TfL information to the stopping pattern text (as against the status information below or on separate screens) so it can now take around 70-80 seconds before you can see what stations a train is due to call at if you missed it first time around. Longer if there's more disruption text appended.

I'd have kept things running mostly the same for a bit until the new management could properly see what worked and didn't work. Why assume you knew better before you were 'handed the keys'?

 

[LBSCR Times]

I'd have kept things running mostly the same for a bit until the new management could properly see what worked and didn't work. Why assume you knew better before you were 'handed the keys'?

As far as I'm aware there have been no changes on the operating side.

 

[The Box Photter]

I'm not sure what new ideas Govia has/had but many seem to have been, so far, rather misguided. What's more, in recent months it seems FCC had really improved how it provided information during disruption.

Now we have a number of changes, which includes adding TfL information to the stopping pattern text (as against the status information below or on separate screens) so it can now take around 70-80 seconds before you can see what stations a train is due to call at if you missed it first time around. Longer if there's more disruption text appended.

I'd have kept things running mostly the same for a bit until the new management could properly see what worked and didn't work. Why assume you knew better before you were 'handed the keys'?

Mr Horton has made it clear what he thinks of Thameslink passengers. I for one look forward to being able to stand more comfortably on the new trains the Dft ordered and bought for his franchise. So far my experience has been as mind-numbingly predictable as FCC was. Govia is clearly tweaking the edges and papering over the cracks. The "updated" information for passengers is just one example. Yes, its really helpful to know the current status of the Bakerloo line when boarding a train at Flitwick, which is at least one hour away from the first chance you'd get to board a Bakerloo line train.

The train indicator boards are a mish-mash of unrelated information. Tell us:

1. Which train and whether it is on time (not "due in xx mins")
2. Calling at which stations
3. How many carriages
4. Where will 1st class be (for the uninitiated it allows grizzled old commuters work out where the declassified 1st class will be on a train formed of 377s)

Only after you've told us this (and perhaps not on every cycle of info) tell us which LU lines have gone into meltdown.

There is also a noticeable run-down of maintenance of the trains. I've suffered delays caused by six mechanical breakdowns so far as well as the infrastructure chaos and persons struck by trains. Just last week my morning train had an unexpected emergency brake application bringing us to a stand near WHT. After 6-7 mins we restarted and the driver put it down to a unit fault. This was on a 12 car train formed from a mix of 377/5 and 377/2. The non-opening doors issue has re-emerged and in many units the PIS and announcements seem to dislike the changeover from AC to DC at Farringdon. One of the Southern-liveried 319s is running round with a pink door. This seems to be symptomatic of an organisation that takes little pride in its operation.

And whilst they're at it, CUT DOWN ON THE NUMBER OF OVERLAPPING SODDING ANNOUNCEMENTS AT BLACKFRIARS! The platform staff don't need to repeat the calling pattern of the train when it has just been announced by the automated system. Stop telling me that Oyster Cards are not valid north of Elstree & Borehamwood or south of St Mary Cray stations. Stop telling me to watch out because the platforms might be slippery. Stop telling me to allow other passengers off the train first before boarding. Stop warning me that unattended luggage will be removed without warning, you've just given me a warning. Stop telling me to stand behind the yellow lines, actually, stop shouting at us to stand behind the yellow lines. And finally, I know you think its pleasant to welcome us to Blackfriars each morning and that you hope we all have a nice day, but most of us have no choice in how we get to work each day and we don't want to be there any more than you do.

There should be no reason for platform staff to make announcements, except in exceptional circumstances to advise passengers about changes to the advertised service or when the automated system goes wrong. They're enthusiastic, but clearly have had insufficient training on how to make clear,concise announcements. Their priority should be the safe despatching of trains, not auditioning for an open mike contest.

 

[Aictos]

The reasoning behind the influx of safety related announcements might be overkill but it's mostly to do with actually having done something to prevent accidents because you must have noticed by now there are some people who travel on the railways who practically invite themselves to have accidents who run on the stairs, who think they have to stand in front of the yellow line by the platform edge, who think they know better then anyone but are the first to say they bring legal action even though they're in the wrong.

I also have to commute so I rather know how long I have to wait for my train rather then seeing On Time which doesn't help much, having the countdown time like other TOCs use is far more helpful as being On Time could mean it's delayed but won't change until AFTER the departure time.

These Oyster card announcements HAVE to be made because you get passengers who think they're valid on both routes far outside the zones for example Hertford passengers who assume it's valid to Hertford whereas it's only valid to Crews Hill so while you might dislike them, sadly until people actually learn where they can and cannot use them then these announcements will continue.

I do agree with you on platform staff and announcements for example I only use the system if A. there's a fault with the system like it's giving out wrong information, B. there's platform changes/alterations/cancellations or C. special announcements I'm requested to make.

Other then that I let that horrible ATOS Anne get on with it.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

.

These Oyster card announcements HAVE to be made because you get passengers who think they're valid on both routes far outside the zones for example Hertford passengers who assume it's valid to Hertford whereas it's only valid to Crews Hill so while you might dislike them, sadly until people actually learn where they can and cannot use them then these announcements will continue.

I

Wouldn't making these announcements on board at a couple of stops prior to Oystercards not being valid on the train suffice and be more effective ?

 

[Class377/5]

Wouldn't making these announcements on board at a couple of stops prior to Oystercards not being valid on the train suffice and be more effective ?

But that would mean announcing at City Thameslink for southbound Brighton trains and Farringdon for northbound. There are a lot of tourist who still try to use Oyster outside the area its valid for. That who these announcements are aimed at.

 

[Aictos]

But that would mean announcing at City Thameslink for southbound Brighton trains and Farringdon for northbound. There are a lot of tourist who still try to use Oyster outside the area its valid for. That who these announcements are aimed at.

Precisely and these commuters who try it too....

 

[greatkingrat]

Looks like the goals of the Thameslink programme have changed, it will now be connecting London to American casinos instead

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/

 

[Aictos]

Looks like the goals of the Thameslink programme have changed, it will now be connecting London to American casinos instead

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/

Been reported internally FYI.

 

[asylumxl]

Been reported internally FYI.

Can't they keep it that way?

 

[W230]

And whilst they're at it, CUT DOWN ON THE NUMBER OF OVERLAPPING SODDING ANNOUNCEMENTS AT BLACKFRIARS! The platform staff don't need to repeat the calling pattern of the train when it has just been announced by the automated system. Stop telling me that Oyster Cards are not valid north of Elstree & Borehamwood or south of St Mary Cray stations. Stop telling me to watch out because the platforms might be slippery. Stop telling me to allow other passengers off the train first before boarding. Stop warning me that unattended luggage will be removed without warning, you've just given me a warning. Stop telling me to stand behind the yellow lines, actually, stop shouting at us to stand behind the yellow lines. And finally, I know you think its pleasant to welcome us to Blackfriars each morning and that you hope we all have a nice day, but most of us have no choice in how we get to work each day and we don't want to be there any more than you do.

As someone who works for TL it's nice to see that the passengers get as annoyed about this as I do. On the occasions I wait at Blackfriars to work my next train I really am amazed by the constant inane reminders that seem to be announced non stop. There is really just no need.

"Sevenoaks service, that's Sevenoaks services via the Catford loop depart from..." Aaaaarghhhhhh!

 

[21C101]

As someone who works for TL it's nice to see that the passengers get as annoyed about this as I do. On the occasions I wait at Blackfriars to work my next train I really am amazed by the constant inane reminders that seem to be announced non stop. There is really just no need.

"Sevenoaks service, that's Sevenoaks services via the Catford loop depart from..." Aaaaarghhhhhh!

What they might more usefully do is make announcements pointing out that first class seats in 377s are totally identical to standard class seats and that they have helpfully removed all the FCC white "First Class" headrests from the seats along with most of the "First Class" warning signs inside the compartment but will still penalty fare or worse anyone found in there with a standard class ticket.

I suspect they are getting a lot of appeals against penalty fares on that front at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is also a noticeable run-down of maintenance of the trains. I've suffered delays caused by six mechanical breakdowns so far as well as the infrastructure chaos and persons struck by trains. Just last week my morning train had an unexpected emergency brake application bringing us to a stand near WHT. After 6-7 mins we restarted and the driver put it down to a unit fault. This was on a 12 car train formed from a mix of 377/5 and 377/2. The non-opening doors issue has re-emerged and in many units the PIS and announcements seem to dislike the changeover from AC to DC at Farringdon. One of the Southern-liveried 319s is running round with a pink door. This seems to be symptomatic of an organisation that takes little pride in its operation.

I was on the train with the emergency stop at Cricklewood too. It's best to say it was an alleged unit fault.

The non opening doors problem never went away, (and is nothing to do with train maintenenance), the auto announcements and CIS have always reset at the voltage changeover, and the pink door has been on the Southern liveried train since late May.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... that they have helpfully removed all the FCC white "First Class" headrests from the seats along with most of the "First Class" warning signs inside the compartment but will still penalty fare or worse anyone found in there with a standard class ticket.

I suspect they are getting a lot of appeals against penalty fares on that front at the moment.

I had a proper main at GTR senior management about exactly this issue in the first week of the franchise, and haven't seen an RPI in first class since. Possibly coincidental.

 

[21C101]

I was on the train with the emergency stop at Cricklewood too. It's best to say it was an alleged unit fault.

The non opening doors problem never went away, (and is nothing to do with train maintenenance).

I presume its more to do with GPS not working in a tunnel.

Not experienced a 377 coming screeching to a halt with a unit fault, but it happens not infrequently with 319s when a passing HST rattles the doors a bit too much.

 

[asylumxl]

I presume its more to do with GPS not working in a tunnel.

Not experienced a 377 coming screeching to a halt with a unit fault, but it happens not infrequently with 319s when a passing HST rattles the doors a bit too much.

I was told it was to do with interference, caused by the OHLE essentially being in a concrete bunker, overwhelming the track based beacon.

 

[Class377/5]

I was told it was to do with interference, caused by the OHLE essentially being in a concrete bunker, overwhelming the track based beacon.

At St Pancras (and to a lesser degree City Thameslink), the standard Electrostar GPS lock can't happen. So they have a track beacon.

What happened at St Pancras is they OHLE threw out interference.this was the first time the Electrostar model had been used with beacons and OHLE. The solution took many months to figure out including installing a metal shield in one 377/5. In the end it was part physical, part software mod that fixed the problem. Still not 100% but it a lot better.

The 377/5 & /2 issue is a known one and I've got an idea why but cant talk publicly about it. Its something that isn't being ignored.

 

[21C101]

At St Pancras (and to a lesser degree City Thameslink), the standard Electrostar GPS lock can't happen. So they have a track beacon.

What happened at St Pancras is they OHLE threw out interference.this was the first time the Electrostar model had been used with beacons and OHLE. The solution took many months to figure out including installing a metal shield in one 377/5. In the end it was part physical, part software mod that fixed the problem. Still not 100% but it a lot better.

The 377/5 & /2 issue is a known one and I've got an idea why but cant talk publicly about it. Its something that isn't being ignored.

Good old EMC

 

[The Box Photter]

Since all the Bed-Pan platforms have been lengthened (or built) to accommodate 12-car trains except Kentish Town, why does a class 377 need GPS to tell it the doors can open. Why can't the driver simply have a big red "door release" button? Trains should be safe for passengers and staff, but also as simple as possible. This seems to be complexity for complexity's sake. Any driver signing the route will know platform lengths and stopping distances, so there shouldn't be any need for an additional electronic system.

I still stand by my suspicion that FCC "eased off" on maintenance and that GTR hasn't picked up on it yet. Tonight's 1W90 which should be 12-cars was only formed of eight. The screens at Blackfriars were saying first class was declassified, but there were no on-train announcements. Hence 12 cars' worth of passengers squeezed onto 8 cars at St Pancras. Unsurprisingly, a passenger fainted and the train was held at St Albans awaiting an ambulance.

Platform staff at St Albans were understandably torn between ensuring the safety of the sick passenger and directing passengers from the delayed train onto other northbound trains. The result was an announcement made too late to allow passengers to get from plat 4 to plat 2 over the narrow footbridge, meaning that most got halfway only to see the train doors close and the train head north without them. Cue complete disruption as the delayed train was on the down fast line and EMT services were being switched onto the down slow. 1W90 eventually left about 40 mins down, with most other northbound trains delayed.

In my view, the episode was caused by the lack of the requisite number of units and poor on-train communication to spread the passengers out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Since all the Bed-Pan platforms have been lengthened (or built) to accommodate 12-car trains except Kentish Town

And Cricklewood, Hendon, slow lines platforms at Elstree, Radlett and (I think) the stations north of Luton save Bedford.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd be reasonably confident that the safety case for an automatic SDO system requires it to be switched on for the entire route, to help avoid the driver forgetting to switch it on when it is definitely needed. That seems to be the only logical explanation for the new SWT system having the balises fitted at all the stations, including all the 12 car platforms.

 

[DelayRepay]

Tonight's 1W90 which should be 12-cars was only formed of eight. The screens at Blackfriars were saying first class was declassified, but there were no on-train announcements. Hence 12 cars' worth of passengers squeezed onto 8 cars at St Pancras. Unsurprisingly, a passenger fainted and the train was held at St Albans awaiting an ambulance.

I was on the train behind and we were held on the down fast outside St Albans for about 40 minutes. Our train was also heavily loaded (I assume due to the previous service being short formed) so it is lucky nobody on our train was taken ill.

Add to this the two broken down trains on the Thameslink route this evening (at City Thameslink and Kentish Town) and it's been another fantastic day for GoVia Thameslink! :roll:

 

[hassaanhc]

I'd be reasonably confident that the safety case for an automatic SDO system requires it to be switched on for the entire route, to help avoid the driver forgetting to switch it on when it is definitely needed. That seems to be the only logical explanation for the new SWT system having the balises fitted at all the stations, including all the 12 car platforms.

The SWT 458/5 system detects how many coaches have passed the balise, and the train enables the coaches based on that. If the system has not worked (like at Kew Bridge last week) the system defaults to only opening the front 4 coaches, thanks to the length of the platforms at Chertsey.
The LUL S stock, if override has been required, doesn't open the doors in the driving cars.

 

[The Box Photter]

And Cricklewood, Hendon, slow lines platforms at Elstree, Radlett and (I think) the stations north of Luton save Bedford.

Leagrave, Harlington & Flitwick can accommodate 12 car trains on all lines. Once the 12 car class 700s come on stream and replace all the 319s, 377s and 387s what will be able to call at Hendon or Cricklewood? Woudn't it be simpler to close those stations and augment bus feeder routes into nearby LU tube lines?
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Not wanting to make any enemies on here, could I also point out that St Albans passengers seem quite willing to squash themselves onto the trains that run non-stop from St Albans into London in the morning, when they could opt to take a seat on the all-stations stopping service that starts from there. Presumably the same thing happens in the evening as my experience is that after disgorging St Albans passengers the train is half-empty on its journey north thereof.

The journey time on a fast train (the 08.02) is timetabled 18 mins but usually takes between 22 and 25 because of congestion, whilst the "stopper" that starts at St Albans at 07.32 takes 36 mins. The Luton trains take 10 mins less because the call only at Radlett, Elstree and West Hampstead.

Just think how much easier and more comfortable it would be for long-distance passengers if the fasts didn't call at St Albans. I know its never going to happen, but it would make it so much easier to drink those £5 cups of coffee at the same time as catching up on "Homeland" on the iPad.

 

[asylumxl]

From experience plenty of folk in St Albans get on the peak time trains from Luton.

There certainly are some who insist on crushing themselves in to a rammed fast services to save a few minutes, but that's the society we live in these days.

 

[AM9]

Leagrave, Harlington & Flitwick can accommodate 12 car trains on all lines. Once the 12 car class 700s come on stream and replace all the 319s, 377s and 387s what will be able to call at Hendon or Cricklewood? Woudn't it be simpler to close those stations and augment bus feeder routes into nearby LU tube lines?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not wanting to make any enemies on here, could I also point out that St Albans passengers seem quite willing to squash themselves onto the trains that run non-stop from St Albans into London in the morning, when they could opt to take a seat on the all-stations stopping service that starts from there. Presumably the same thing happens in the evening as my experience is that after disgorging St Albans passengers the train is half-empty on its journey north thereof.

The journey time on a fast train (the 08.02) is timetabled 18 mins but usually takes between 22 and 25 because of congestion, whilst the "stopper" that starts at St Albans at 07.32 takes 36 mins. The Luton trains take 10 mins less because the call only at Radlett, Elstree and West Hampstead.

Just think how much easier and more comfortable it would be for long-distance passengers if the fasts didn't call at St Albans. I know its never going to happen, but it would make it so much easier to drink those £5 cups of coffee at the same time as catching up on "Homeland" on the iPad.

This doesn't make an enemy of me as I'm retired and only use the trains when it suits me. Making the St Albans starters more crowded would just increase dwells causing problems at WHT with the crossovers.
However, the real problem for those north of St Albans is that the ORR estimated number of season ticket entries for St Albans per year is about two thirds of the total for all the stations from Harlington to Harpenden added together. Given that Govia is a commercial business, their solution might be to run fast trains from St Albans thereby clearing the platforms before the next ex Bedford fast. They would only need to be 8 car sets, which the turnround siding could accomodate. That would allow a reduction in the number of half-full trains from Bedford giving them better load factors.

 

[thelem]

Since all the Bed-Pan platforms have been lengthened (or built) to accommodate 12-car trains except Kentish Town, why does a class 377 need GPS to tell it the doors can open.

There are still a few stations that haven't had their platforms lengthened, such as Hendon. 12-carriage trains should just run fast through those stations, but I guess there's a chance they could stop accidentally.

How accurate is the GPS? Would it be able to detect a 12-carriage train stopped at the 8 car stop sign on a 12 car platform?