Thameslink Railway performance

[Abpj17]

I still stand by my suspicion that FCC "eased off" on maintenance and that GTR hasn't picked up on it yet.

Ditto. Today is a good example...(although I fortunately avoided most of it by going to the theatre instead - still picked up 10 mins of delay)

Re: platforms - I assume the fast to st albans trains will aim for 12 cars, but the all stations to luton/sutton loop will be 8?

 

[hassaanhc]

There are still a few stations that haven't had their platforms lengthened, such as Hendon. 12-carriage trains should just run fast through those stations, but I guess there's a chance they could stop accidentally.

How accurate is the GPS? Would it be able to detect a 12-carriage train stopped at the 8 car stop sign on a 12 car platform?

What about the trackside beacon system used by SWT and LUL? No need for GPS, and can be detected per coach rather than per unit. In fact LUL's system used on the S stock does it per door. Also more precise and probably more reliable than GPS.

 

[Class377/5]

Lets add some facts here.

Kentish Town, Cricklewood, Hendon, Mill Hill Broadway are all 8 cars. Elstree & Borenhamwood, Radlett and Harlington only have 12 car platforms on the slow lines. At Leagrave, platform 3 is 8 cars, all others are 12.

SDO is switched on at every station when in passenger service. It cannot detect which platform as its accurate to a few meters so can't work out what lines. The 377/6 & /7 fleets can work with track beacons to show which platform, what side to open doors and how many carriages. I believe the 387s are the same.

SWT and LUL both use track side beacons which has advantages over the GPS system.

 

[Abpj17]

At Leagrave, platform 3 is 8 cars, all others are 12.

I assume you mean 2 - the down fast line and 3 - the up slow line [they are the same bit of concrete] With 1 and 4 being 12 cars

 

[Class377/5]

I assume you mean 2 - the down fast line and 3 - the up slow line [they are the same bit of concrete] With 1 and 4 being 12 cars

Nope I mean platform 3. Operationally that the info we have.

 

[DelayRepay]

Not wanting to make any enemies on here, could I also point out that St Albans passengers seem quite willing to squash themselves onto the trains that run non-stop from St Albans into London in the morning, when they could opt to take a seat on the all-stations stopping service that starts from there. Presumably the same thing happens in the evening as my experience is that after disgorging St Albans passengers the train is half-empty on its journey north thereof.

I usually get the stopper from St Albans in the morning to get a seat - but by the time these trains leave Mill Hill there are usually people standing. Going home, I tend to get the fast trains but I board at City Thameslink so usually get a seat. I would rather have a slightly longer journey with a seat than stand on a crush loaded train. Lots of others do the same - look at how many people are waiting on platform 1 at St Albans in a morning.

But if the fasts didn't stop at St Albans, the stoppers would be full on departure meaning those from Elstree, Mill Hill etc would be unable to board.

 

[user15681]

Lets add some facts here.

Kentish Town, Cricklewood, Hendon, Mill Hill Broadway are all 8 cars. Elstree & Borenhamwood, Radlett and Harlington only have 12 car platforms on the slow lines. At Leagrave, platform 3 is 8 cars, all others are 12.

SDO is switched on at every station when in passenger service. It cannot detect which platform as its accurate to a few meters so can't work out what lines. The 377/6 & /7 fleets can work with track beacons to show which platform, what side to open doors and how many carriages. I believe the 387s are the same.

SWT and LUL both use track side beacons which has advantages over the GPS system.

I thought all 377s worked with Hima-Sella Tracklink 2, including the Thameslink fleet? My understanding was that they have the rudimentary GPS system which is only accurate to within a few metres, but at stations with limited GPS or platforms with different length they utilise Tracklink 2 loops in the four foot to specifically identify which platform they are at. Or is this system no longer in use?

 

[westcoaster]

I thought all 377s worked with Hima-Sella Tracklink 2, including the Thameslink fleet? My understanding was that they have the rudimentary GPS system which is only accurate to within a few metres, but at stations with limited GPS or platforms with different length they utilise Tracklink 2 loops in the four foot to specifically identify which platform they are at. Or is this system no longer in use?

This is the system the use gps and track bailses(grids).

 

[David Sinnett]

I don't know whether this has been discussed already but I'm concerned at the Thameslink trains from Bedford having to wait for departure or, like this morning, trundleing down the slow lines due to the EMT train being delayed. When we get the Cambridge trains going through the core, a delay in Sheffield is going to knock on not just on the MML but throughout the South East.
Is the rule book hard and fast that long distance trains have to have priority or could an EMT be forced to wait for the good of the greater network?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know whether this has been discussed already but I'm concerned at the Thameslink trains from Bedford having to wait for departure or, like this morning, trundleing down the slow lines due to the EMT train being delayed. When we get the Cambridge trains going through the core, a delay in Sheffield is going to knock on not just on the MML but throughout the South East.
Is the rule book hard and fast that long distance trains have to have priority or could an EMT be forced to wait for the good of the greater network?

In 2018 they are overlaying a wider area 'automatic train supervision system' (ATSS) on the existing signalling system outside the core ATO area. It is described by NR like this:

3.1.4 Changes to operational and control systems, such as the implementation of a Thameslink traffic management system (known as the Automatic Train Supervision System, ATSS) will take place over a wider area across Thameslink routes. The geographical extent of ATSS coverage has yet to be formally determined, but is expected to cover a radius of at least 20 minutes from the Thameslink Core Area to allow regulation of trains on its approaches.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ormal cppn/ncg52013tlp001 hci formal cppn.pdf

That Network Change Notice describes the proposals for the whole 'High Capacity Infrastructure' area including the core ATO arrangements.

 

[Aictos]

In that case, it be covering Stevenage as it's only 20 mins from Finsbury Park but if you're referring to St Pancras International then I guess it be starting at Welwyn Garden City.

 

[Class377/5]

I thought all 377s worked with Hima-Sella Tracklink 2, including the Thameslink fleet? My understanding was that they have the rudimentary GPS system which is only accurate to within a few metres, but at stations with limited GPS or platforms with different length they utilise Tracklink 2 loops in the four foot to specifically identify which platform they are at. Or is this system no longer in use?

They do use beacons but mainly at the underground core stations (ie St Pancras and City. Not 100% sure about Farringdon), theres a few above ground go improve performance but can't for the life of me remember which stations/platforms. The newer Electrostars (377/6 onwards, maybe 379s) they can enable right side door into the beacons too.

I don't know whether this has been discussed already but I'm concerned at the Thameslink trains from Bedford having to wait for departure or, like this morning, trundleing down the slow lines due to the EMT train being delayed. When we get the Cambridge trains going through the core, a delay in Sheffield is going to knock on not just on the MML but throughout the South East.
Is the rule book hard and fast that long distance trains have to have priority or could an EMT be forced to wait for the good of the greater network?

Todays regulation policy won't be the same one as 2018's.

 

[westcoaster]

Beacons in the form of grids are at all stations where something happens, ie to tell the train how many coaches to open.

 

[The Box Photter]

I don't know whether this has been discussed already but I'm concerned at the Thameslink trains from Bedford having to wait for departure or, like this morning, trundleing down the slow lines due to the EMT train being delayed. When we get the Cambridge trains going through the core, a delay in Sheffield is going to knock on not just on the MML but throughout the South East.
Is the rule book hard and fast that long distance trains have to have priority or could an EMT be forced to wait for the good of the greater network?

The 07:30 Bedford - Brighton is regularly delayed because of late running EMT service, meaning that even if it leaves Bedford on time it can be 5 or 6 mins down by the time it gets to Flitwick. This morning it arrived at FLT simultaneously with the 07:44 southbound service. Those minutes are rarely made up, resulting in arrival at St Pancras of 08:30 instead of 08:20. What will be done to avoid such delays causing Core chaos?

It always seems positively antediluvian that trains run at 100 mph from Bedford to West Hampstead, are then invariably signal-checked down to a stop at WHT and then stagger at between 15 and 25 mph from there to Blackfriars. What is the reason for the low maximum permitted speed? Haven't all these lines been relaid and re-signalled as part of the Thameslink programme?

Call me a pessimist, but I foresee regular Core meltdown.

 

[21C101]

The 07:30 Bedford - Brighton is regularly delayed because of late running EMT service, meaning that even if it leaves Bedford on time it can be 5 or 6 mins down by the time it gets to Flitwick. This morning it arrived at FLT simultaneously with the 07:44 southbound service. Those minutes are rarely made up, resulting in arrival at St Pancras of 08:30 instead of 08:20. What will be done to avoid such delays causing Core chaos?

It always seems positively antediluvian that trains run at 100 mph from Bedford to West Hampstead, are then invariably signal-checked down to a stop at WHT and then stagger at between 15 and 25 mph from there to Blackfriars. What is the reason for the low maximum permitted speed? Haven't all these lines been relaid and re-signalled as part of the Thameslink programme?

Call me a pessimist, but I foresee regular Core meltdown.

I started off with the 07:58 from Bedford then moved earlier and earlier and now am on board well before 7AM. I like to be clear of all public transport well before 8AM as that avoids the delays and means you can often get a seat on the tube (or if you are using the Northern line actually get on). Same goes for evening peak.

The 6.54 and 7.30 off Bedford are incredibly busy even with the 7.30 now being 12 cars. All seats gone by Flitwick. Ditto things like the 17.27 off Farringdon which is now 12 cars. Wasn't that long ago it was 4 cars and fast to Leagrave.

Seems half the people on this board use Thameslink!

 

[asylumxl]

Call me a pessimist, but I foresee regular Core meltdown.

I agree whole heartedly.

Sorry to be pedantic by the way, but the code for West Hampstead Thameslink is WHP. WHT is Whitchurch (Cardiff) .

 

[The Box Photter]

I agree whole heartedly.

Sorry to be pedantic by the way, but the code for West Hampstead Thameslink is WHP. WHT is Whitchurch (Cardiff) .

Thanks for the correction!

There are usually some seats still available on departing Luton but by Harpenden the train is already standing room only.

My big concern is that with the coming Midland Mainline electrification, Thameslink trains will be pushed further north to start at Corby or Wellingborough. Goodbye to seats available at Flitwick!

 

[asylumxl]

Thanks for the correction!

There are usually some seats still available on departing Luton but by Harpenden the train is already standing room only.

My big concern is that with the coming Midland Mainline electrification, Thameslink trains will be pushed further north to start at Corby or Wellingborough. Goodbye to seats available at Flitwick!

I honestly don't think this will happen. It seems to be a popular idea with users of this forum but the numbers don't add up.

People on here seem to be under the false pretence that the Corby services cart around fresh air. Perhaps at stations north of Bedford, but from Bedford and Luton they are crammed.

How they think you'll fit those passengers on to already rammed 12 car train I don't know.

 

[Abpj17]

Seems half the people on this board use Thameslink!

My theory is that there is a direct relationship between the (poor) performance of the line and the number of passengers that sign up for the forum sooner or later...

 

[21C101]

I honestly don't think this will happen. It seems to be a popular idea with users of this forum but the numbers don't add up.

People on here seem to be under the false pretence that the Corby services cart around fresh air. Perhaps at stations north of Bedford, but from Bedford and Luton they are crammed.

How they think you'll fit those passengers on to already rammed 12 car train I don't know.

If they ran more than 4/5 coaches it might help. Surely the answer is to run longer trains on EMT and stop some of them at St Albans.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And Cricklewood, Hendon, slow lines platforms at Elstree, Radlett and (I think) the stations north of Luton save Bedford.

All the stations north of Luton have 12 cars except the fast line platforms at Harlington (and possibly Leagrave I can't remember) and platform 4 (down fast) & 1a (Bletchley bay) at Bedford.

Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon have 8 car platforms on all lines still. Mill Hill has 12 car platforms on all lines as it was one of the first to be done and they hadn't yet realised at that time they could save costs by not doing fast line platforms with no scheduled services or slow line platforms only served by the wall of death (Sutton loop) that will only ever have 8 car trains because doing Kentish Town and Tulse Hill is too difficult.

West Hampstead, St A, Harp, Luton A and luton (all 5 platforms) are all 12 car all platforms.

Elstree/Radlett slow line platforms only.

I did read a proposal at one point to not do 12 car Flitwick fast lines but I recall that was dropped after local commuter association intervened. Similarly I recall the post blockade timetable was going to have the limited stop trains fast to Bedford from Luton until the BCA saw the timetable and pointed out omitting Flitwick was not wise.

I think City is actually 12 cars plus loco because BR had ideas about running intercities through Thameslink in the late 80s when it was built.


Doh, I've been travelling on that line too long (two years more than you have!) and have even travelled on the down goods line on a Thameslink. Got looped in there one day just beyond West Hampstead when an EMT train failed in front, then back onto the down fast at Cricklewood.

 

[talldave]

I had the misfortune to get on a 4 car 319 southbound sardine tin service during yesterday's rush hour. Fortunately I only had to suffer it between East Croydon and Gatwick as I try to avoid the crawl from Blackfriars by going to London Bridge instead and using a fast Southern service. The barriers at London Bridge wouldn't accept my ticket but I guess that's just another added irritation!

 

[AM9]

I had the misfortune to get on a 4 car 319 southbound sardine tin service during yesterday's rush hour. Fortunately I only had to suffer it between East Croydon and Gatwick as I try to avoid the crawl from Blackfriars by going to London Bridge instead and using a fast Southern service. The barriers at London Bridge wouldn't accept my ticket but I guess that's just another added irritation!

Is your ticket Thameslink only?

 

[asylumxl]

If they ran more than 4/5 coaches it might help. Surely the answer is to run longer trains on EMT and stop some of them at St Albans.

I reckon if they ran more than 4/5 carriages they'd just end up with more Bedford/Luton passengers using the service, which would then create the same problems at St Albans.

Also, are there any other stations as close to London (20 miles or so) served by regular intercity services?

 

[talldave]

Is your ticket Thameslink only?

Nope, I buy a Gatwick to Blackfriars (or sometimes City Thameslink) return so that the restriction becomes "Not Underground".

But on the return journeys, I could walk from Blackfriars to East Croydon faster than the train travels, hence it seems more practical to do London Bridge to East Croydon and pick something else up there to Gatwick - often a Thameslink sardine experience as yesterday.

 

[W230]

It always seems positively antediluvian that trains run at 100 mph from Bedford to West Hampstead, are then invariably signal-checked down to a stop at WHT and then stagger at between 15 and 25 mph from there to Blackfriars. What is the reason for the low maximum permitted speed? Haven't all these lines been relaid and re-signalled as part of the Thameslink programme?

If you're late then you probably lose your path onto the US (as a result of needing to cross the DS) at West Hampstead South Junction. This will mean no flashing yellows (junction speed 50mph) and instead like you say crawling up to the end of West Hampstead platforms waiting for the signal to clear.

From there its 75mph through Belsize slow tunnels but only as far as Carlton Road Jct where you're down to 50mph again and then 30mph from between Carlton Road and Kentish town all the way through. Never going to be quick...

 

[AM9]

If you're late then you probably lose your path onto the US (as a result of needing to cross the DS) at West Hampstead South Junction. This will mean no flashing yellows (junction speed 50mph) and instead like you say crawling up to the end of West Hampstead platforms waiting for the signal to clear.

From there its 75mph through Belsize slow tunnels but only as far as Carlton Road Jct where you're down to 50mph again and then 30mph from between Carlton Road and Kentish town all the way through. Never going to be quick...

Any idea why it's so slow from Carlton Road Jct.. Surely the line is better than 30mph to the top of the ramp down to STP LL.

 

[asylumxl]

Any idea why it's so slow from Carlton Road Jct.. Surely the line is better than 30mph to the top of the ramp down to STP LL.

I'd imagine due to short signal sections, which in turn is due to the amount of pointwork in the area.

 

[LBSCR Times]

But on the return journeys, I could walk from Blackfriars to East Croydon faster than the train travels, hence it seems more practical to do London Bridge to East Croydon and pick something else up there to Gatwick

Get used too it from January 2015 when everything goes via Herne Hill, except of course for the Thameslink services between London Bridge and Brighton!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd imagine due to short signal sections, which in turn is due to the amount of pointwork in the area.

Short signal sections to enable 75 second headways with 240m trains,no some of the curves are a bit tight. Ditto all through the core.

 

[asylumxl]

Short signal sections to enable 75 second headways with 240m trains,no some of the curves are a bit tight. Ditto all through the core.

That too. But there's quite a bit after Carlton Road. The turning for the Tottenham Tunnel (can't remember the proper name), then various pointwork just before Kentish Town to allow access to the other platforms, then pointwork to the south of Kentish Town. Having large signal sections wouldn't work anyway.