Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[mackenzie_blu]

Just an update here. 377212 is running driver training today on the core. Unusually rather than displaying test train or out of service it has been displaying various destinations.

Northbound its been showing Farringdon and Luton although the second line shows all stations to Luton including when its going to Farringdon.

Southbound we've had Sutton, Elephant & Castle with the scrowing line showing all destinations to Sutton via Mitcham.

Does this mean that you can set the scrolling line to display stations differently to the main destination? IE show Elephant & castle but show as calling all stations to Sutton even showing up Elephant?

On a note of the 377/5 Ive had some information. Each unit needs 5,000 miles before coming into service. Was also told 501 had broken down a few times and 502 & 503 won't be deliveried until this has been resolved.

 

[Edvid]

You lot are getting inordinately keen. 24 pages about a class of unit that has been in circulation for years already, and this one is just a different colour to the rest...?

I swear I will never understand you Neds.

O L Leigh

Say what? There is more to this thread than 377s* (the title says it all), which just happen to be the main topic - and yes, this is particularly notable among more recent posts. This thread is also a year old, so 24 pages of posts is hardly of biblical proportions in that context.

To therefore proclaim that 'I swear I will never understand you Neds' is perhaps somewhat bizzare - and besides, what exactly do you mean by 'Neds'? As I understand it, 'ned' is a synonym for 'chav' which sounds a little vitriolic, although I presume the definition in this context is different.

I'm not looking to start a war here, I'm just bemused by your comment.

[* In case you're tempted to exploit that statement, I will also add that the other stuff is not just the useful info you provided on DOO dispatch.]

 

[O L Leigh]

Sorry chap. It's just a mismatch of terms. Ned = Gricer/Spotter/Enthusiast. Or at least so I thought.

No offence intended.

O L Leigh

 

[Edvid]

On a note of the 377/5 Ive had some information. Each unit needs 5,000 miles before coming into service. Was also told 501 had broken down a few times and 502 & 503 won't be deliveried until this has been resolved.

Ouch. That sounds like 2/3 weeks of commissioning nights/days per unit.

And thanks for the clarification O L Leigh. No offence taken.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Update - 377213 is on driver training today and went I went home was en route to Bedford. The first northern stint was Selhurst into Smithfield, back south then to Herne Hill before heading for Bedford.

One thing I forgot to mention it seems that the soluation FCC has for the lack of 377/5 isn't that clever really. basically all services will run as planned but instead of most being 8 cars they will run as 4 cars until they have enough 377/5's to make up for it. This isn't going to popluar. I haven't heard this offically at all but it seems to be whats being said by people dealing with TLP.

On the other point does anyone know about the setting of the destination and whether its seperate to the scrolling text on the side windows?

 

[westcoaster]

ive seen the scrolly text thing before its to do with splitting trains on route, i.e southern services from london to the south coast that split at haywards heath the front destination blind says ore and littlehampton then the side ones say something like coach 1-4 ore followed by the calling patern, then coaches 5-8 litllehampton followed by its calling pattern.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Its just werid as today I saw it display Farringdon on the ends and sides but the text scrolling said Bedford service stations. Just wondering if you can change the destinations manually without affect the scolling text as that seemed to be what happened. Might have to wait to get my hands on a Electrostar before I can answer this!

 

[westcoaster]

you can manually change them i think the driver can do it from the tms there was one on themml with 007 going around on it.

 

[Edvid]

Update - 377213 is on driver training today and went I went home was en route to Bedford.

So now 5 units have traversed further north than Kentish Town. The actual destinations showing up on screens before passenger service is new to me.

One thing I forgot to mention it seems that the soluation FCC has for the lack of 377/5 isn't that clever really. basically all services will run as planned but instead of most being 8 cars they will run as 4 cars until they have enough 377/5's to make up for it. This isn't going to popluar. I haven't heard this offically at all but it seems to be whats being said by people dealing with TLP.

Until I hear more about this I'll keep an open mind. With the recession biting hard I'd rather the KO0 services began on 22 March otherwise the risk of the TLP not being completed will increase even further. Since mid-2008 some of the services I've been on seemed slightly less overcrowded, so the consequences of pushing ahead with a March 22 start at the short-lived expense of up to 23 coaches' worth of capacity (although certainly not ideal) may not be as bad as first thought.

Was also told 501 had broken down a few times and 502 & 503 won't be deliveried until this has been resolved.

That certainly tallies with the upcoming 5X77 path (for unit 2 (504)) being pushed back at least 5 days, so I hear.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Ah so normally they don't test the screen on the line then? They were doing full driver training this week, ie pulling up to the right signal and going through the door cycle (which lead to some confusion as FCC staff got on one station which the onboard staff not having a clue who they were!).

I think the fact that any more delays they don't have enough recovery time in the programme as well as the fact work is too far advance now to just be suspended. Work at platform level has begun at Blackfriars and Farringdon's bridge now has to be done as they have the first piece in. I hope that they managed to get some extra stock somehow just to provide a breather as using the 319's on the Sevenoaks will stretch the fleet.

We already have fleet shortages due to various issues and trying to replace Networkers may prove too much for a short period. Now I haven't had this confirmed but the SouthEastern services FCC are due to take over, in peak the long distance ones should be 8 car 319's where as the Sevenoaks is likely to end up as 4 car? I take it that the 375/6's are cleared for work as far as City Thameslink?

I was hoping you had better news than a caped 5X77! When I heard that they wouldn't accept any other units untill the 501 problems had been solved I was abit worried for the overall introduction of the 377/5's. Then again you can't start filling Selhurst with unworkable units.

Does that mean there are currently 3 whole units up there at Derby then? That bods well for the 5 in services by KO0 deadline (if 501 can be made to work).

 

[Edvid]

I heard some months ago that a contract to retrofit 319s with SDO equipment was awarded. I've heard nothing since but until they're SDO-equipped (whenever that is) then 4-car 319s are the max. permitted on the Ashford/Medway services due to a lack of grandfather rights; Networkers can operate in 6-car formations so perhaps it's best for SER to retain a few until sufficient 377/5s are available although that'll require a few conflicting moves to/from Smithfield Sidings.

It seems that 319(217-220) being released to FCC on 22 March or thereabouts is a given, but I haven't checked how many 442s have been refurbished (17 required) so I'd better take a look.

As for Litchurch Lane, 504 is presumably complete but that might be it. Delivering units 'out of sequence' is nothing new anyway, London Midland have 10 350/2s in passenger service but 234 isn't even in the UK yet! (The 37-strong 350/2 sub-class is numbered 231-267.)

 

[mackenzie_blu]

So there can't be an peak 8 car services to Gillingham, Rochester or Ashford International if they use 319? Oh dear. Hopefully they'll have the sense to least get some 375's or Networks in 8 car formations for these or they won't be popluar. They come in with people standing in 6/8 car formations so 4 car is a no no. I think emptying at City will require extra effort but I know FCC have the staff to move over and cope with this for atleast a limited time untill the 377's can help out. Any additional 319 will assist greatly in this respect.

Wasn't there supposed to be two units being delivered on the next 5X77 (if/when it next runs)?

 

[Edvid]

The next 5X77 path could involve 1 or 2 377s (more likely 1). As for the misbehaving violet unit, it's booked to do several runs within Greater London today but with two 377s for company this time - again the following gen is courtesy of our well-mentioned friend (and relayed by Matthew Brown of se-gen).


5Z20Â runs SO 14.02.09
Selhurst T&R.S.M.D 09:20
Norwood Jn pass 09:26
Sydenham pass 09:29
London Bridge (Platform 10)Â 09:40- 09:50
Sydenham pass 10:03
Crystal Palace pass 10:06
Streatham Hill Shed 10:20- 10:45
Balham pass 10:58
Clapham Junction 11:03- 11:04
Victoria (Platform 15) 11:13

5Z21 runs SO 14.02.09
Victoria (Platform 15) 11:25
Clapham Junction pass 11:32
Balham pass 11:35
Streatham South Jn pass 11:40
Mitcham Junction pass 11:47
Sutton 11:54- 11:56
West Sutton pass 12:01
Wimbledon 12:10- 12:12
Tooting pass 12:16
Streatham North Jn pass 12:26
Clapham Junction 12:31- 12:32
Victoria (Platform 19) 12:38

5Z22 runs SO 14.02.09
Victoria (Platform 19) 12:55
Clapham Junction 13:02- 13:03
Balham pass 13:08
West Norwood 13:13- 13:14
Crystal Palace pass 13:19
Sydenham pass 13:24
London Bridge (Platform 13) 13:38- 13:50
Peckham Rye pass 14:03
Denmark Hill pass 14:11
Factory Jn pass 14:15
Battersea Park 14:17- 14:27
Victoria (Platform 15) 14:31

5Z23 runs SO 14.02.09
Victoria (Platform 15) 14:55
Battersea Park 14:58- 14:59
Factory Jn pass 15:08
Denmark Hill pass 15:14
Peckham Rye pass 15:24
London Bridge (Platform 13) 15:32- 15:39
Sydenham pass 15:48
Norwood Jn pass 15:50
East Croydon pass 15:53
Purley 15:59- 16:00
Redhill (Platform 3) 16:12- 16:18
Purley 16:27- 16:28
East Croydon pass 16:35
Norwood Jn 16:38- 16:39
Crystal Palace pass 16:46
Streatham Hill pass 16:57
Streatham Hill Shed 17:17

5Z74 runs SO 14.02.09
Streatham Hill Shed 17:40
West Norwood pass 18:00
Crystal Palace pass 18:06
Norwood Jn pass 18:12
Selhurst T&R.S.M.D 18:32

Notes:
377501 will be on the Selhurst end when on 5Z20.
5Z74 will be formed by 377501 ONLY. The 2 Southern 377s will be detached between
5Z23 and 5Z74.

 

[Julian G]

The train did run, I saw it a couple of times while I was out and about

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Typical, spent last few weeks looking around for the train and the one time I would have seen it Im too busy moving house!

 

[Edvid]

Ah well, here's your consolation prize. [1] [2]

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Thank you!

also found this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziZTId7MekE

 

[Edvid]

I'm surprised that third video slipped under the radar earlier, although I think no more than that have been uploaded yet.

Now you're a bona fide London Reconnections article poster perhaps you could copy the '377501 on Test' article from your own blog to the LR one as well.

Came across another picture as well today.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I'm surprised that third video slipped under the radar earlier, although I think no more than that have been uploaded yet.

Now you're a bona fide London Reconnections article poster perhaps you could copy the '377501 on Test' article from your own blog to the LR one as well.

Came across another picture as well today.

That was the aim actually! Was trying not too be too TLP on LCR to be honest!

Thats an amazingly good photo actually! Wonder if I'll get to see 501 just north of the core this week.

Does anyone know why the number on thr front isn't on both ides like is standard with the Electrostars?

 

[Tom C]

They come in with people standing in 6/8 car formations so 4 car is a no no.

2F27 (18:00 BFR-AFK) Very rarely goes out full and standing, it usually has very few seats left but its not a bad one (until it gets to EPH that is). When the train was booked for 8 400's it ran with 4 vice 8 many times and it rarely caused a problem. The main problem with 2F27 if it starts from Smithfields is that the crews for this train do not sign BFR-CTK so I would presume that if it needed to reverse at Smithfields it would still terminate at BFR on Platform 5 and be worked forward by an Orpington driver.

As for 2S11 and 2S15 (17:26 & 18:10 BFR-GLM) Again these are not particularly full and standing and the majority of traffic on these trains are for BMS as with 2F27 in the main. I think these could still run from Smithfields providing that they use some sense and make 2E25 (17:47 CTK-BKJ) 4x319 and start from KTN/SAC/LUT and allow the others to use its path out of Smithfields although I do see it being a problem as traffic has to be stopped whilst a train leaves Smithfields and you just know that service disruption will occur causing even more problems whilst numerous trains leave Smithfields sidings.

2E31 (16:52 BFR-BKJ) is 8 car and very rarely anything other than half full so I don't see the problem in cutting this and putting the traffic on 2V87 (16:46 BFR-SUO) or 2O89 (16:58 BFR-WIM) to change at HNH for the much improved VIC-ORP services at least as an interim solution.

The key thing is that 2O & 2V trains out of BFR in the evening peak towards SUO & WIM are extreamly busy as 8 cars and you cannot cut anymore carriages off BDM-BTN services especially with the large gap in the evening between trains so the solution must be to keep the Kent Link services as 465/466 for the time being or indeed cut the two BKJ trains which can easily be replaced with a change at HNH otherwise the already packed Thameslink trains will just become unbareable (as they so often were when they were running with 4 cars).

We have been told that the March timetable will require a detailed brief which still is not ready due to the delay in the delivery of 377's and on train staff have yet to be given evacuation training. I personally think its going to be a bit of a disaster unless there is a miracle but then again it is FCC after all

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I was thinking more of the morning peak when I wrote that, services into Blackfriars in the morning are very crowded with most seats taken on an 6/8 car service. Unless they provide extra seating between Blackfriars and City then its not going to improve anything. I can't give headcodes as Ive packed them somewhere!

There has been alot of the SouthEastern drivers doing training through to Smithfield and in the core to Kentish Town including Ashford drivers. I would expect a pool of drivers able to take a service into Smithfield come March.

SouthEastern staff have started their evac training last week although SE didn't tell FCC they were going to do this! Well I say evac its more familarisation with a trainer and shown how to lock it up.

To be honest Im not sure they know what they are going to do although I expect it to be sorted very shortly as we in a weeks time we should expect to see the new timetables start appearing internally. Once they do Im gonna grab a copy and see what they've done. As for the introduction of the 377/5's, well it a pain but atleast we are getting there now.

 

[Tom C]

I was thinking more of the morning peak when I wrote that, services into Blackfriars in the morning are very crowded with most seats taken on an 6/8 car service. Unless they provide extra seating between Blackfriars and City then its not going to improve anything. I can't give headcodes as Ive packed them somewhere!

Ahhhh the dreaded morning peak. South Eastern do provide a lot more trains into BFR than it does out!

The main problem trains would be......

2F51 06:09 BSD - BFR
2F53 06:23 AFK - BFR
2D11 07:02 ORP - BFR
2D91 08:00 BKJ - BFR
2K57 07:29 RTR - BFR
2D93 08:43 KTH - BFR

Anything 2B or 2L (from SEV or ORP via CTF) should continue to run as normal as trains to BFR are all the Catford Loop get.

The trains from BSD & AFK are generally very busy, infact as I recall 2F51 was set up as a relief service to 2F53 which could not cope with the numbers. The 2D trains are the exact opposite to the evening peak and come in full to bursting and the main reason is the poor Thameslink service from the Sutton Loop in the morning meaning that HNH, LGJ and EPH get a half hourly service with the 2D's as relief so they do get extreamly busy. 2K57 is now the only train from Medway into BFR these days so obviously it gets very busy.

SouthEastern staff have started their evac training last week although SE didn't tell FCC they were going to do this! Well I say evac its more familarisation with a trainer and shown how to lock it up.

Obviously if Revenue staff are going onto these horrid 377's then they are going to have to be shown how to evacuate and also issued with the appropiate keys for the places of safety.

To be honest Im not sure they know what they are going to do although I expect it to be sorted very shortly as we in a weeks time we should expect to see the new timetables start appearing internally. Once they do Im gonna grab a copy and see what they've done. As for the introduction of the 377/5's, well it a pain but atleast we are getting there now.

They never know what they are doing so expect the timetables to be very late and be unreadable as they are now!. As for the 377's well they arn't here long so by the time they have got though "teething troubles" they will be back at Selhurst.

 

[Edvid]

Considering the poor frequency of FCC Wimbledon Loop services in the morning peak, it's ironic that more of the TL North morning peak hour trains go to the Loop than Brighton...

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The SouthEastern staff currently having 319 traing aren't revenue but are customer service staff who are being shown how to lock the trains up. So far last few weeks Ive spoke to most of them that have come to Blackfrairs about it all.

Whats funny is that the TL timetable is going the way of the GN with three tables in the March 09 edition, just like the GN side has. And its going to be even harder to read what services go where. Personally I think they need a new core table showing services between West Hampstead to London Bridge/Elephant & Castle.

 

[Tom C]

Considering the poor frequency of FCC Wimbledon Loop services in the morning peak, it's ironic that more of the TL North morning peak hour trains go to the Loop than Brighton...

Between 0700 & 0800 SAC has 12 southbound departures........

5 go into MOG
3 go to WIM via SUO
1 goes to SUO via WIM
2 go to BTN (of which one is a 1W so actually goes via HNH)
1 terminates at BFR

I don't think many of us down south realise just quite how important MOG actually is to the morning peak service at the moment and its going to be very interesting to see just how the timetable copes without MOG. Its also quite shocking just how little of the service actually goes via the "flagship" route via LBG, just one train in the height of the rush hour so its not a surprise when you see just how many commuters from the North side actually use EPH in the morning, simply because LBG gets such a poor service in the morning.

At the moment the Sutton Loop gets a half hourly Southern service out of LBG in the morning either as a circular or going into VIC via WCY and just one FCC train goes through TOO and terminates at WIM to form the 07:58 service back to town and CSH, HCB, MIJ and MTC actually get no Northbound service at all in the morning peak (the first train being 2V24 which starts at SUO at 09:37). The service via HCB also finishes early and doesn't run on Sundays so this to me is a limited service route.

The service which terminates at BFR to me is a waste and could and indeed should carry on to either the Loop or the mainline.

 

[Edvid]

Once the full KO0 timetable kicks in (see post #248) there'll be no TL North services emptying at BFR, although a couple will empty at EPH then reverse in the new siding at HNH. As for the poor TL North service to LBG, well that's 28tph to/from CHX via Borough Market for you (associated TLP works in that area started last month).

[N.B. Isn't Moorgate (Met/TL platforms) ZMG rather than MOG?]

Whats funny is that the TL timetable is going the way of the GN with three tables in the March 09 edition, just like the GN side has.

Oh great...

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The simple reason for TL trains avoiding London Bridge is there simply isn't space for a train to cross the lines south of the station in peak where every single spare bit of track is needed. Once TL has its own track in the LBG area then this will change (around 2015 tho!).

Basically the reason it changes in December to this crappy verison was a step change into March's timetable. You can't fit Bedford to Brighton and still include the Loop and Sevenoaks services like the older one did sadly. so they seperated them into tables to try and make it simpiler. Problem is trains in the core are screwed up now as you annit got a clue unless your on the edge of the Core and trying to get a through train is impossible without looking at multiple tables or guessing!

Moorgate is ZMG!

Don't worry about the Loop, will soon be back with Southern!

 

[Tom C]

Once the full KO0 timetable kicks in (see post #248) there'll be no TL North services emptying at BFR, although a couple will empty at EPH then reverse in the new siding at HNH. As for the poor TL North service to LBG, well that's 28tph to/from CHX via Borough Market for you (associated TLP works in that area started last month).

[N.B. Isn't Moorgate (Met/TL platforms) ZMG rather than MOG?]

I suppose Borough Market just cannot cope with any more trains judging by your figure of 28 tph. After having a look at the service plans for WAE I notice that none of the 28 are now Southern trains with everything using the lower level at LBG so thats 27 SET trains and one FCC.

I am wondering what the diagrams for the trains turning at EPH will be? Will they turn at HNH then reenter service at EPH or run off empties to CRI or Cauldwell. Currently there are 3 trains which terminate at BFR......

1J85 07:10 BDM-BFR (arr 08:16)
1J62 07:32 BDM-BFR (arr 08:44)
1J91 09:48 BDM-BFR (arr 10:56)

Obviously the last one runs at a time when the clockface timetable has started so is really a relief service if anything.

Currently the Brighton services around 1J62 at BFR are 1W86 (08:00), 1T11 (08:12), 1W86 (08:32) & 2T21 (08:59). 1J62 which currently turns at BFR could quite happily slot in as a 1W and run though rather than turning back and if 1W86 (which runs via HNH) could be slightly retimed to run earlier then it is actually possible to run at a near 15 minute service to ECR, GTW and BTN and also give an extra train to these locations from EPH, LGJ, HNH & TUH perhaps even running via SRC to give STE its first coastal service for many years.

With 1J85 there is a merit to running this to WIM via TOO for an additional service back to London. Currently SUO services leave BFR at 16 & 46 mpeh so you can judge that this would get to WIM at approximately 08:46 if running via current timeings. Only problem that I can forsee is 2D23 which is booked to arrive at WIM at 08:51 so with a bit of tweaking it would give an additional service from WIM at around 09:00 which is about the busiest time for the loop and try to fill in the gap between 2O16 (08:47) & 2O18 (09:10).

All ifs and buts but I just hope that the rather pointless turning at BFR isn't just transfered to EPH when both trains could be extended and provide further capacity.

As for Moorgate, yes on Advantix fares are usually issued to ZMG rather than MOG which generally refers to the NCL however we have always used MOG on our paperwork so it has sort of stuck

Don't worry about the Loop, will soon be back with Southern!

I have heard that since we were TUPE'd in from Connex but it never happens

Current information says that the loop service will go into BFR when all the hell has finished but until then we are stuck with FCC

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Services that currently terminate at Blackfrairs (theres five of them them not three) will arrive at the following times and continue onwards from March 09 as shown below -

08:16 Bedford to Bromley South
08:44 Bedford to Sevenoaks
10:26 Bedford to Elephant & Castle
10:56 Bedford to Elephant & Castle
11:26 Bedford to Elephant & Castle

I haven't got the headcodes at the moment (they are in my pigeon hole at Blackfriars) so can only use time they reach Blackfriars for now.

They will go empty from EPH to HNH reversing siding and head back north starting from EPH.

The idea is that all Loop services will terminate at Blackfriars once TLP is finished. So it might as well be Southern! Then again it would be a semi self contained service so it may have a chance of miniumal delays!

 

[Edvid]

As it's getting late and there's much to delve into I'll come back to this later but want to add the first 1W86 (08:00) should read 1W84. [I've just realised I already created a link to the TL SX diagrams originally hosted on UKmodernEMU last month, although they only cover the current timetable]