Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[O L Leigh]

If there was no compatible DOO equipment on the platforms and no staff to dispatch, it is likely that a Cl377 would not be permitted to run if the on-train DOO equipment was defective.

In this situation, the only dispatch alternative would be for the driver to get out and stand in a position where he/she can see the entire length of the train to self-dispatch or go down the train closing up each coach individually using the "porter buttons". Both are time consuming and will cause delay (I know as I've had to do both on ocassion where there is no staff at a staffed station), so if this had to be done as a matter of course at every station the train would quickly be pulled.

However, I don't believe this is going to be a problem for FCC as the DOO platform equipment still needs to be there for the Cl319's.

O L Leigh

 

[Edvid]

Ta muchly. Dispatch methods on Thameslink North these days are certainly different to the pre-BedPan EMU era, after which the line I understand was (one of) the first to become DOO but not without a fight from the trade unions.

EDIT: Paul, I've just recalled a post you made on 29/11/08 - your source was clearly well informed! Did (s)he mention supplier issues were a factor?

 

[David Sinnett]

Thanks Edvid. I did see your post re the trouble free mileage required before full acceptance. What puzzled me though is that IF the unit was sent out from Derby glitch free, why can't it start running through the trials miles the very next day? So far it's had several days in the shed keeping warm.

 

[Edvid]

Possibly because it was the weekend? I've also learnt that authorisation is required (from whom I'm not sure) before it can leave the premises, and the people required for that couldn't get to Selhurst yesterday or the day before.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377 211 was back on test on the core although reversing at Farringdon due to issues with the service.

 

[Edvid]

Regardless of which direction it came from (I'm guessing South), that doesn't happen often does it?

On another subject, FCC have recently published a short video on the expansion of Bedford depot.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Regardless of which direction it came from (I'm guessing South), that doesn't happen often does it?

On another subject, FCC have recently published a short video on the expansion of Bedford depot.

It reversed at Farringdon to go back north. It should have gone to Herne Hill but a points failure there (they froze) so it reverse at Farringdon and went back to Kentish Town. As far as I know it then stayed there for sometime as P2 had it sat there 23mins (when I went home). Likely waiting to go back to Selhurst to avoid futher disruption.

 

[Edvid]

211 must have switched lines at the Clerkenwell Tunnel 3 crossover then (what's the official name for it?).

Thanks to Iain Kernaghan* of southernrailway, we have new gen - 501 should be running with a (currently UID) partner between London Bridge and Brighton tonight!


5Z70
Selhurst 2100
London Bridge 2120-2130
East Croydon (P3) 2150
Gatwick (P3) 2212
Brighton 2250

5Z71
Brighton 2255
Gatwick (P4) 2322
East Croydon (P1) 2341
London Bridge 2354

5Z72
London Bridge 0001
East Croydon (P2) 0012
Gatwick (P3) 0038
Brighton 0101

5Z73
Brighton 0110
London Bridge 0204

5Z74
London Bridge 0215
Haywards 0301

5Z75
Haywards 0310
Selhurst 0400

[* I feel it's worth adding he also provided the gen on the successful drag to Selhurst I mentioned earlier]

 

[paul1609]

If there was no compatible DOO equipment on the platforms and no staff to dispatch, it is likely that a Cl377 would not be permitted to run if the on-train DOO equipment was defective.

In this situation, the only dispatch alternative would be for the driver to get out and stand in a position where he/she can see the entire length of the train to self-dispatch or go down the train closing up each coach individually using the "porter buttons". Both are time consuming and will cause delay (I know as I've had to do both on ocassion where there is no staff at a staffed station), so if this had to be done as a matter of course at every station the train would quickly be pulled.

However, I don't believe this is going to be a problem for FCC as the DOO platform equipment still needs to be there for the Cl319's.

O L Leigh

On the Southern 377s you got to one of the doorways, open the small panel insert the key, turn it to active. Press the Close doors button all the doors except yours will start the close cycle check that the other doors are closed safely then turn the key to off when your door will start the close cycle. When this is complete the blue interlock button will illuminate.

 

[westcoaster]

It reversed at Farringdon to go back north. It should have gone to Herne Hill but a points failure there (they froze) so it reverse at Farringdon and went back to Kentish Town. As far as I know it then stayed there for sometime as P2 had it sat there 23mins (when I went home). Likely waiting to go back to Selhurst to avoid futher disruption.

this would of been done in snow hill tunnel as there is a shunt signal and crossover in place(also the ac-dc change over will also have been done, also it could of gone to city tl to do it but its been said it was done at farringdon.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Shame I didnt know it was doing that as I was at London bridge at the time it was sat down during 5Z70.

Do we know (weather permitting) whether or not 377501 will continue to do these paths? If so a trip to London Bridge is needed!

Strangely the reversing put the 377 back through the Clerkenwell Tunnels which track inspections have been going on suspending services for short periods during the day. Ive not managed to find out why they were doing track walks down there tho.

 

[Edvid]

I've no idea to be honest. If it's now moving then sightings may be noted on se-gen or another Yahoo Group.

 

[O L Leigh]

On the Southern 377s you got to one of the doorways, open the small panel insert the key, turn it to active. Press the Close doors button all the doors except yours will start the close cycle check that the other doors are closed safely then turn the key to off when your door will start the close cycle. When this is complete the blue interlock button will illuminate.

Yes, but you still have to be in a position to be able to SEE the entire length of your train before you can do that. If there is nowhere you can do this and still get to the door controls, you are going to need to shut each coach up individually. There is no other safe method of dispatch.

Even so, if you're DOO it's all going to take time. You've got to secure the train and your cab, walk down, carry out your station duties, walk back and then prepare to depart. If you're having to do that too many times you will quickly accrue a large delay.

O L Leigh

 

[paul1609]

Yes, but you still have to be in a position to be able to SEE the entire length of your train before you can do that. If there is nowhere you can do this and still get to the door controls, you are going to need to shut each coach up individually. There is no other safe method of dispatch.

Even so, if you're DOO it's all going to take time. You've got to secure the train and your cab, walk down, carry out your station duties, walk back and then prepare to depart. If you're having to do that too many times you will quickly accrue a large delay.

O L Leigh

Obviously you are going to be delayed but I'm confused as to what you mean by closing every door. I thought that if there was no active door release when the doors went through the auto close cycle that would be it. Most of the doors would have closed themselves by the time you walked back especially with an 8 car train. The only exception would be if someone was obstructing the doorway. Obviously you need to see the doors are closed but Southern Guards do that on 12 car trains everyday at self despatch stations.

 

[O L Leigh]

There's a difference between closing a set of doors using the local buttons and taking back a door release so that you have interlock and can leave the station. It's the taking back of the door release that I'm talking about.

I know that EStars have an auto-close function if no-one goes through an individual set for more than a given period of time. But this does not take back the release as it is no different from a punter closing the set themselves using the local buttons.

For dispatch you need to be able to see all your doors so that you can see that they are clear before taking back the release. You can't just punch "door close" and wait for the obstruction detection system to sort out which doors are clear and which are not until you eventually get interlock. For one thing, if EStars are anything like our Cl315's, the doors will try a certain number of times before giving up and staying open. Then someone has to go back and deal with it.

The problem with DOO is that the driver is the sole member of staff onboard. A guard knows for any given station where along the train they need to be to get this unobstructed view and which panel to use to see the train away. The driver can also do this in the absence of a guard. However, I'm not sure that FCC's Cl377's will have so many panels because they are being built for DOO operation which limits where the driver can dispatch from. We have the same problem with our stock in that we can only dispatch from a cab, even if it is in the middle of the train.

Now it may never be an issue, but there just might be stations where the driver cannot see all the doors at once from wherever in the train the door control panels are fitted. In that case the only other option is to use the "porter buttons" on each coach to take back the release one vehicle at a time. This is the safest, but most time-consuming, way of taking back a release when you cannot get yourself into a position to see the entire train.

O L Leigh

 

[Edvid]

I.K informs me that last night's test with 501 took place as planned except that 5Z74 was truncated at Three Bridges due to engineering works. Tonight's test involves the same diagrams except that 5Z74 will be extended to Lewes and 501 should be back in Selhurst around 0500.

After that, the next test is planned for Sunday night. I.K also mentioned that paths 5Z70, 5Z71 and 5Z72 will be the same for all tests with 501.

 

[westcoaster]

Shame I didnt know it was doing that as I was at London bridge at the time it was sat down during 5Z70.

Do we know (weather permitting) whether or not 377501 will continue to do these paths? If so a trip to London Bridge is needed!

Strangely the reversing put the 377 back through the Clerkenwell Tunnels which track inspections have been going on suspending services for short periods during the day. Ive not managed to find out why they were doing track walks down there tho.

water pumps failed causing flooding.

 

[Julian G]

I.K informs me that last night's test with 501 took place as planned except that 5Z74 was truncated at Three Bridges due to engineering works. Tonight's test involves the same diagrams except that 5Z74 will be extended to Lewes and 501 should be back in Selhurst around 0500.

After that, the next test is planned for Sunday night. I.K also mentioned that paths 5Z70, 5Z71 and 5Z72 will be the same for all tests with 501.

It was sighted at Brighton today with 7212

 

[Edvid]

Another informant has published the details of another 5X77 path on UKmodernEMU - the planned date is currently Friday 13.....and up to two units will be dragged. If the path isn't caped by Thursday I'll copy and paste the gen here but feel free to do so yourselves whenever you like if you can access it.

Based on the above, it appears that at least 3 more 377/5 carriages have been fully assembled since January 8 - the EMUs there are presumably tested on the electrified test track before dispatch.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Tonight's diagram for 501 is different to what was originally expected - paths 5Z(70/71/72) are not the same as they were during the previous two commissioning nights, and at times 501 will turn back at Gatwick rather than Brighton.

Thanks to John Atkinson of UKmodernEMU for the following gen and for adding that the unit is running without a partner for the first time.

5Z70 20+50 Selhurst depot - London Bridge 21+08
5Z70 21+14 London Bridge - Gatwick Sidings 21+55
5Z71 22+08 Gatwick Sidings - London Bridge 22+37
5Z72 22+45 London Bridge - Brighton 23+54
5Z73 00+03 Brighton - London Bridge 00+55
5Z74 01+02 London Bridge - Brighton 01+51
5Z75 02+00 Brighton - London Bridge 02+48
5Z76 02+54 London Bridge - Gatwick 03+19
5Z77 03+25 Gatwick - Selhurst depot

 

[Edvid]

Courtesy of paul917241 of southernrailway, we finally have pics of the unit under its own power! (At Brighton last night or earlier this morning)

On the infrastructure front, a quarter of the new footbridge at Farringdon has been installed with mackenzie_blu's pic as proof. Earlier this morning I took a few pictures myself and have attached them alongside the 377501 pics.

 

[Edvid]

Just one more pic to add as I happened to hit the 10 picture limit with my previous post.

 

[Pumbaa]

So Southern spec interior then? Sensible, seeing as it's going to Southern when they're finished with.

 

[Edvid]

Strictly speaking, when FCC (or a successor) relinquish the 377/5s in almost five years' time the South Central franchisee may not be a Govia subsidiary. Purely out of curiosity I do wonder how a FCC-spec interior would have turned out (2+3 throughout SC perhaps?).

From those pics it's hard to tell if Bombardier have added extra luggage racks or not - the refreshed 319/4s have 2 in each carriage but 377s only have 2 in each of the intermediate carriages.

 

[westcoaster]

i was told one unit a week for delivery along time ago. wonder when the dynamic lines will be put on

 

[Edvid]

The dynamic lines won't be applied until full acceptance is achieved (followed by the inauguration of the lease/sub-lease).

Oh, and do you care to guess which unit is doing the driver training runs to Milton Keynes Central today?

All info courtesy of I.K.

(EDIT 1: They've chosen 212 instead.)
(EDIT 2: The reason is that 501 failed and now it'll stay at Selhurst until the weekend.)

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Do we know 501 failed at all yet?

 

[Edvid]

Yes, it was I.K. who mentioned it to me.

 

[westcoaster]

will 501 be out and about tonight

 

[Edvid]

It's staying put for at least the next 4 nights. But there's still the next delivery to look forward to on Friday night...hopefully.

 

[O L Leigh]

You lot are getting inordinately keen. 24 pages about a class of unit that has been in circulation for years already, and this one is just a different colour to the rest...?

I swear I will never understand you Neds.

O L Leigh