Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[mackenzie_blu]

Blackfrairs Tube station closure is part of TLP. Although techinally the station will close for the last time on the 27th Feb due to enginerring works that weekend.

As for the bridge which is quite major, Im quoting the engineer and FCC people incharge as this bridge has to be in place before the bay closure.

City Thameslink needs to be on that list of dispatching places. Staff and equipment are there as well as the commitment that once new trains are running all trains get dispatched.

As for Airport Parkway, I wouldn't be surprised if they are CSA who are dispatched qualifed. Tho Im curious now!

 

[Edvid]

I must admit I wasn't aware of the pre-KO0 requirement for a new footbridge at Blackfriars, but in retrospect it would be rather farcical not to have one.

Incidentally Network Rail have applied to LB Islington for permission to install temporary canopies along the northern halves of platforms 3 and 4 at Farringdon, along with a temp. stairway between platforms 2 and 3 in the vicinity of the new footbridge there.

 

[westcoaster]

having a traul through the interweb and i found this


ta person somewhere on wnxx

The "plan" is for the 350s to release the 377/2s from the East Croydon to Milton Keynes services. These are gaurd worked services and 350/1 are gaurd worked. There are currently a number of 377/2s working South Coast services pending more 442s arriving to release other 377s off the Brightons back into booked workings.

The remaining 4 x 319/2 units will also go to FCC.
One suspects there will be a lot of driver / conductor / fitter training starting very soon !

seems plausable as govia own both lm and southern

 

[paul1609]

having a traul through the interweb and i found this


ta person somewhere on wnxx



seems plausable as govia own both lm and southern

There seem to be 1 or 2 shortcomings in this plan however;
1)350/1s dont currently have any dc shoegear or indeed clearance to run on the dc network.
2) There are currently no 350 trained drivers for the route
3) The 377/2 diagrams include the westcoastway which has no clearance for 442s
4) What is going to replace the 350s on London Midland?

 

[westcoaster]

There seem to be 1 or 2 shortcomings in this plan however;
1)350/1s dont currently have any dc shoegear or indeed clearance to run on the dc network.
2) There are currently no 350 trained drivers for the route
3) The 377/2 diagrams include the westcoastway which has no clearance for 442s
4) What is going to replace the 350s on London Midland?

1, they do have it fitted but there was rumors it was being removed
2, true enough
3, i have no idea
4, they still have the 321's

this seems like a no brainer to me, i suspeect its just a rumour

 

[paul1609]

1, they do have it fitted but there was rumors it was being removed
2, true enough
3, i have no idea
4, they still have the 321's

this seems like a no brainer to me, i suspeect its just a rumour

My understanding of the situation is that only 6 or possibly 9 units have ever had dc shoegear fitted and that it has been removed from all of them as shown in this photo:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:350110_at_Stafford_departing_for_Brum_29Oct2005.jpg. I cant find a photo on the internet that shows shoegear.
I dont believe that 350 or any desiro has route clearance for use on the WLL or the BML other than I believe some SWT units have clearance to run in to the Southeastern side of Victoria.
Given the new timetable is only a few weeks away I reckon your right about the rumour.

 

[westcoaster]

paul all 350/1's were delivered with shoe gear fitted, a 12 car 350 did dc acceptance tests to and from southampton over a couple of days a few years back.
there are pics of it at basingstoke and northam ill try and find a link.

http://photos.m-t-p.org.uk/p25746545.html 12 car 350 basingstoke

http://photos.m-t-p.org.uk/p25746547.html woking

 

[Edvid]

Another path booked for 501 - supplier of said information from the southernrailway Yahoo Group seemed more confident than usual of delivery going ahead as planned. Planned departure from Litchurch Lane at 2001 on Friday and arrival in Selhurst at 0123 on Saturday.

That was the (potentially) good news. The bad news is that only 5 377/5s are likely to be ready in time (thanks for relaying the info to me westcoaster).

Just found out that 212 was taken along the core Thameslink route yesterday, making it the 7th unit of its class to acquire that honour unless other units have done so on the down low.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Looks like Im gonna be glued to P2 tonight watching this movement!

 

[paul1609]

Another path booked for 501 - supplier of said information from the southernrailway Yahoo Group seemed more confident than usual of delivery going ahead as planned. Planned departure from Litchurch Lane at 2001 on Friday and arrival in Selhurst at 0123 on Saturday.

That was the (potentially) good news. The bad news is that only 5 377/5s are likely to be ready in time (thanks for relaying the info to me westcoaster).

.

Cant help but feel that with 0 units arrived and the new timetable 7 weeks away thats a tadge optimistic. i dont know the plan for acceptance of the 377/5s but the other 377s spent months accumulating mileage on the Dorking to Littlehampton Route before they were accepted in to public service. I've heard rumours that apart from 501 only 1 other coach is complete at Derby. Has the problem of the gearbox supplier been resolved yet?

 

[Edvid]

I understand that 1500 (consecutive?) trouble free commissioning miles are required from each unit before acceptance, which equates to 6 days per unit if they behave. Theoretically speaking the 377/5s shouldn't take too long to commission since 154 377s (excluding former 375/3s) have been built and by now the major teething problems of the early 00's should be ironed out.

As of January 8, there was indeed only 1 coach (besides 501) at Derby. Regarding the 12 (yes, 12) component suppliers in trouble:
* Bombardier is in talks with the administrators of 2;
* Bombardier bought out another supplier;
* Bombardier is paying the other suppliers in advance.

The rolling stock contracts include penalty clauses which apparently are being triggered right now, so you can bet Bombardier are trying their hardest to deliver the rolling stock as soon as possible. And it's not just the 377/5s which are affected...

 

[paul1609]

Personally I hope that the supply issues can be resolved because I'd like to see a train assembly facility retained in the UK and I think the Electrostar/ Turbo star trains are actually better than the German opposition but realistically we are not going to see squadron service of the 377/5s before the Autumn.

It'll be interesting to see where the trains are run in, the paths that were previously available on the Arun Valley Line were taken up by the new westcoastway timetable in Dec 2007. My favourite would be Redhill to Ashford these days.

 

[Edvid]

I don't know if the routes have changed, but back in November Southern were planning to commission the units (during the wee hours) between London Bridge and Brighton and also between Kensington Olympia and Milton Keynes.

Once the supplier problems are sorted one would hope we don't have to wait until the autumn for all 23 units - after all two of the 5 production lines at Litchurch Lane are assigned to them. The other EMU builds have one production line each and I think the 172s won't be assigned a line until one of the EMU builds are fully constructed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and the path to Selhurst has been caped again. :roll:

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Personally I hope that the supply issues can be resolved because I'd like to see a train assembly facility retained in the UK and I think the Electrostar/ Turbo star trains are actually better than the German opposition but realistically we are not going to see squadron service of the 377/5s before the Autumn.

It'll be interesting to see where the trains are run in, the paths that were previously available on the Arun Valley Line were taken up by the new westcoastway timetable in Dec 2007. My favourite would be Redhill to Ashford these days.

Won't they have to run in somewhere with OHL tho? As they are DV both ways of drawing power will need to be tested and I can't see them using HS1 infrastructure in the Ashford area to test.

 

[Edvid]

mackenzie_blu, see my post above.

By the way, there's yet another twist in the 377501 saga - and you'll love this particular twist - the cancellation of tonight's move is reversed and 66729 (I think that's the loco) is dragging the unit right now! It's confirmed as passing through Loughborough as of 2155.

About f___ing time too!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

It safely arrived at Selhurst around 1hr 44mins late.

Was 44mins late leaving and then got helded up at Norwood Junction for an hour.

Hoping to have some images by this evening of the unit for those interested. Will post them on my Flickr/blog for you guys to view.

I was refering to Paul's posting, didnt see the bit in your post David! These nights are killing me!

EDIT:

Didnt see 377501 at all. Seems my NR mate was right and they are keeping it inside the main shed (all doors were closed). Shame but did get to remind myself why I love the Electrostars so much plus few nices pictures for my modelling project.

 

[westcoaster]

went passed today and it was all doors closed although there was a 377/2 training train going around today 377212.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Do you what paths or stations it was seeing?

 

[Edvid]

Footage of 377501 (and 66729 plus the translator vehicles) at Derby is now available on YouTube - in HD!

 

[thelem]

I assume that is not the final livery, as its very plain and doesn't even seem to have the FCC logo on it. It seems a bit odd to send it out looking like that, if it is just going to have to be taken away again in a few weeks for some vynal.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

As far as I know thats the livery they intend tho the FCC logo/urban lights bit is still to be fitted.

 

[Edvid]

edvid if you have noticed that there has been cd/ra indicators provided at some sations along the line i.e bedford/luton/st.albans this is to do with the introduction of 377's, this is to stop the looking back from the cab on 377 which would cause time delays.

Something's just occured to me - since 377s are fitted with DOO cameras which 'feed into' cab monitors, I wonder if the CD/RA indicators are just a back-up measure in case the on-board equipment is faulty. Then again, how would affected 377s be dispatched from stations without indicators (of which there are many)?

 

[jon0844]

FCC seem to use two stages to the livery (which makes sense if they were to change logo/identity or move within their own franchises).

On a 365, you'll find the URL and First logo is an addition sticker on the vinyl. Perhaps the 'city' graphics are also stuck on in the same way? Strip them off and you're left with the basic colours.

 

[David Sinnett]

What will be happening to the 377 5 whilst at Selhurst? I assume it was accepted by Southern/FCC at Derby so just needs running in? Given the delays, I would have thought they would want it on the rails accumulating mileage.

 

[Edvid]

An earlier post of mine explains your queries in part. Until full acceptance is granted I believe Bombardier continue to own such units, therefore the Porterbrook->NSR lease and NSR->FCC sub-lease cannot start until then - as such FCC are not directly involved in the commissioning process.

501 was meant to be out on Monday night but I'm informed that the unusual weather has pushed the start of commissioning back by at least 2 days (some lines in the Southern Region were totally buried by the snow!).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I was hoping for a start to testing this week but as you say the weathers likely put paid to that. Doubt they will bother till next week now. Get the normal service up and running smoothly first.

Ayone have an idea of pathing yet? Or likely to be used on the Core with another 377 attached? (heard the plan was to run it as an 8 car train untill its passed for service).

 

[Edvid]

IIRC the latest plans I've heard of (which may (have) change(d) again) are that 501 will be coupled to a 377/2 during commissioning, then the rest will be done one at a time with 501. If that very plan is chosen then I suspect it will be a challenge to have any 377/5s in passenger service before March 22, unless Bombardier have silently built a few coaches since January 8 when only one additional complete coach was seen at Litchurch Lane.

Less than 47 days to go now!

 

[paul1609]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1609 26/10/08
As a "narrow minded fool" perhaps you could enlighten me how many 377/5s FCC will have in service when the new timetable starts in 7 weeks time?
I said soon, FCC hope to get them running by March 2009 IIRC or before then. I'm sure its been posted in this thread.

Either way, you're suggesting that the 377s wouldn't be running by the time they are meant to.

hmmm.

 

[O L Leigh]

Something's just occured to me - since 377s are fitted with DOO cameras which 'feed into' cab monitors, I wonder if the CD/RA indicators are just a back-up measure in case the on-board equipment is faulty. Then again, how would affected 377s be dispatched from stations without indicators (of which there are many)?

Nope.

Having both CD and RA indicators simple means that a DOO train can be safely dispatched from a staffed station without requiring the driver to look back for a dispatch bat/light signal from the dispatcher. This is particularly useful if there is some restriction on "look back" working with a particular class of unit due to it's internal configuration. It has nothing to do with the working of any on-train DOO equipment.

O L Leigh

 

[Edvid]

I see now - thanks for the info. (Second question is still open to anyone.)

As a "narrow minded fool" perhaps you could enlighten me how many 377/5s FCC will have in service when the new timetable starts in 7 weeks time?

I said soon, FCC hope to get them running by March 2009 IIRC or before then. I'm sure its been posted in this thread.
Either way, you're suggesting that the 377s wouldn't be running by the time they are meant to.

hmmm.

You were half-right insofar as you correctly anticipated a delay (no 377s in service from December) but your reasoning was incorrect. The reality is certainly a far cry from FCC's prediction of 5 - 9 377s in service from December as mentioned in a post of mine published in May 2008.

From what I can ascertain the construction (or rather assembly) of 501 began in August, so it took Bombardier more than 3 months to complete that unit, then another 2 months to rectify it after more than 30 discrepancies were discovered. Considering they have 2 assembly lines for the 377/5s, the fact that only 5 coaches were built in total as of January 8 just goes to show how severe the supplier problems are; intriguingly, several 378s (only one assembly line) have been done but they still lack some of the vital components without which they can't operate.