Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[bramling]

Or maybe you people who actually have a problem with the trains follow your own advice?

Why on earth should I relocate thanks to a change, when the current service is perfectly fit for purpose and has been so for many years? Thankfully I don’t live in St Albans which is one of the most congested places I’ve ever experienced, and the car is an attractive alternative option. Two more cars on the A1 most days. <sigh>

 

[JonathanH]

There's more than that; I've already got 24 for haulage and seen at least 5 more and I know I haven't seen all of those that have been delivered.

I think that only 126, 133, 134, 136 and 138 haven't been used in passenger service from the 45 delivered - maybe even some of those have been used. 144 reported yesterday and should be at Brighton Down Sidings for Monday morning. 129 reported earlier this week and should be in siding 16 or 17 at Bedford Jowett sidings for Monday morning (or possibly Sunday workings but there aren't many from there). 135 has been running for a week or so. Some of the earlier ones are stored.

 

[jon0844]

You can keep repeating the same soundbites as much as you want, however being unable to board trains is simply not a relevant issue to many passengers. Being unable to get a seat *is*.

Apart from the weekend 4-car services, there are very few GN services where it's not possible to board - even during disruption. You seem to assume that everywhere has the same issues and priorities as St Albans.

Having seen how many angry people demanded a refund on their ticket because they couldn't board a single train (and wouldn't wait for the next) after a previous service was cancelled, I think people are angry about both (not) getting a seat or (not) getting on a train at all.

At weekends, we all know many won't even bother to travel because 4 car trains every hour on a Sunday especially are a joke.

I think that getting on a train, even if having to stand, is still preferable than getting a seat. Especially as being left behind suggests an issue that might affect the next train, and services aren't that frequent at most places.

Most people probably have somewhere to be, at a certain time (for work/meeting up with friends/getting a flight/onward connection) so, again, a train that can swallow up people even if it means standing MUST be preferable to most passengers.

 

[Hadders]

Having seen how many angry people demanded a refund on their ticket because they couldn't board a single train (and wouldn't wait for the next) after a previous service was cancelled, I think people are angry about both (not) getting a seat or (not) getting on a train at all.

At weekends, we all know many won't even bother to travel because 4 car trains every hour on a Sunday especially are a joke.

I think that getting on a train, even if having to stand, is still preferable than getting a seat. Especially as being left behind suggests an issue that might affect the next train, and services aren't that frequent at most places.

Most people probably have somewhere to be, at a certain time (for work/meeting up with friends/getting a flight/onward connection) so, again, a train that can swallow up people even if it means standing MUST be preferable to most passengers.

4 car trains at weekends don't require 700s with their bargain basement interior to fix it.

There's no reason why 8-car trains couldn't have been run at weekends on all services, or run a weekday off peak frequency on Sundays.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It's ironic that if the 700s were just fitted with a higher spec equivalent (read: no ironing boards) half these complaints would have no basis.

 

[bramling]

Having seen how many angry people demanded a refund on their ticket because they couldn't board a single train (and wouldn't wait for the next) after a previous service was cancelled, I think people are angry about both (not) getting a seat or (not) getting on a train at all.

At weekends, we all know many won't even bother to travel because 4 car trains every hour on a Sunday especially are a joke.

I think that getting on a train, even if having to stand, is still preferable than getting a seat. Especially as being left behind suggests an issue that might affect the next train, and services aren't that frequent at most places.

Most people probably have somewhere to be, at a certain time (for work/meeting up with friends/getting a flight/onward connection) so, again, a train that can swallow up people even if it means standing MUST be preferable to most passengers.

Oh I agree that not being able to board a train is certainly not something people welcome. The point I was attempting to make is that, apart from the infamous weekend issue, it’s simply not a common experience on the GN outer suburban service. If anything it’s more of an issue on the 313 services at times.

I struggle to think of *any* occasion when I’ve been unable to board a GN service in three decades. The only times I can remember even being on such a service is the occasional Arsenal match when a 4-car turns up, and a couple of times during disruption. Even the busy 0756 Cambridge to KX (4 car) just about has space leaving Hitchin, and in any event has services either side which run with free *seats*.

The weekend issue is something else, but as others have rightly said doesn’t need 700s to solve.

Meanwhile, I hollow laugh at the irony of hearing about on the one hand how wonderful Thameslink is, yet also reading horror stories about having to let four trains go at St Albans. Great advert for Thameslink that!

 

[Hadders]

It's ironic that if the 700s were just fitted with a higher spec equivalent (read: no ironing boards) half these complaints would have no basis.

Indeed. The interior spec is awful - suitable for a quick spin through the core but nowhere good enough for an outer suburban run which will be the bread and butter of these units.

 

[BelleIsle]

Every so often there is an attempt at the London-Brighton speed record. I believe the last one was with a 377 in 2005. Does anyone know of any plans to have a pop with the 700s? Good PR for the railway and you would expect their performance would beat the current record. Also, would it be faster to go from the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge or from the Sussex side? I assume the rules of the record mean you have to keep to the latter.

 

[jon0844]

Every so often there is an attempt at the London-Brighton speed record. I believe the last one was with a 377 in 2005. Does anyone know of any plans to have a pop with the 700s? Good PR for the railway and you would expect their performance would beat the current record. Also, would it be faster to go from the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge or from the Sussex side? I assume the rules of the record mean you have to keep to the latter.

It might be good PR or it might be a disaster if it leads people to say 'all very good, but my train takes nn minutes longer and is always late'. I think it would be wise for all concerned to wait until the new timetable and trains have bedded in, then start preaching that 10+ years of pain was worth it.

 

[Cletus]

There’s now 5/6 (or more) 700’s to be seen at Dollands Moor.

 

[ctrh136]

It might be good PR or it might be a disaster if it leads people to say 'all very good, but my train takes nn minutes longer and is always late'. I think it would be wise for all concerned to wait until the new timetable and trains have bedded in, then start preaching that 10+ years of pain was worth it.

I don't think it would break the record anyway would it with the revised track layouts now at London Bridge and Gatwick?

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think it would break the record anyway would it with the revised track layouts now at London Bridge and Gatwick?

The Gatwick track layout isn't really changed for a fast run since platform 5 remains the down fast. I would expect the Bermondsey dive under route out of London Bridge to be smoother than the old routes are because it is new line.

 

[JonathanH]

There’s now 5/6 (or more) 700’s to be seen at Dollands Moor.

That is the 12-cars they can't use on the current services isn't it. I saw a report that 105 and 107 were down there. It would be interesting to know which others, more from the point of whether they are the low numbered ones, mid range or latest ones.

 

[A0]

Oh I agree that not being able to board a train is certainly not something people welcome. The point I was attempting to make is that, apart from the infamous weekend issue, it’s simply not a common experience on the GN outer suburban service. If anything it’s more of an issue on the 313 services at times.

I struggle to think of *any* occasion when I’ve been unable to board a GN service in three decades. The only times I can remember even being on such a service is the occasional Arsenal match when a 4-car turns up, and a couple of times during disruption. Even the busy 0756 Cambridge to KX (4 car) just about has space leaving Hitchin, and in any event has services either side which run with free *seats*.

The weekend issue is something else, but as others have rightly said doesn’t need 700s to solve.

Meanwhile, I hollow laugh at the irony of hearing about on the one hand how wonderful Thameslink is, yet also reading horror stories about having to let four trains go at St Albans. Great advert for Thameslink that!

The last couple of times I've used the GN from Hitchin on a weekend everything coming in was full at Hitchin and the standing room was cramped - that was before getting to Stevenage or WGC.

What did bemuse me was people at WGC and Hatfield battling to get onto to an already jammed train, when the following inner-suburban would have been half empty - OK, 10 mins slower but *far* more comfortable.

The journey time from WGC is a red herring - the *vast* majority of WGC - London services don't cover it in 20 mins, it's a couple of peak hour services which run fast that achieve this. The majority of services have 3 stops to KX - and have done for very many years.

Aren't all the inner suburban services 6 car now? Have to admit it's been a while since I used the GN, but I'm sure last time all the Moorgates were 6 car.

I think the comments about TL leaving passengers behind was when it was run with the 319s / 387s. The 700s have far more standing space than either of those units had as well as being quicker to load / unload. The bigger risk for the GN is the disruption that will happen when there's a problem in the core, which will screw things up - particularly given the ECML has less capacity to Hitchin than the MML has to Luton or Bedford as a result of the Welwyn Viaduct / Digswell 2 track section.

 

[Hadders]

The last couple of times I've used the GN from Hitchin on a weekend everything coming in was full at Hitchin and the standing room was cramped - that was before getting to Stevenage or WGC.

What did bemuse me was people at WGC and Hatfield battling to get onto to an already jammed train, when the following inner-suburban would have been half empty - OK, 10 mins slower but *far* more comfortable.

The journey time from WGC is a red herring - the *vast* majority of WGC - London services don't cover it in 20 mins, it's a couple of peak hour services which run fast that achieve this. The majority of services have 3 stops to KX - and have done for very many years.

Aren't all the inner suburban services 6 car now? Have to admit it's been a while since I used the GN, but I'm sure last time all the Moorgates were 6 car.

I’ll bet that the wedged train you saw was a 4 car service, the problem would be solved by doubling up to 8 cars. It doesn’t require the bargain basement interiors of the 700s to achieve this.

 

[A0]

I’ll bet that the wedged train you saw was a 4 car service, the problem would be solved by doubling up to 8 cars. It doesn’t require the bargain basement interiors of the 700s to achieve this.

Look - we get it - you don't like the 700s interiors. You never will. But just stop bleating on about it. They're new trains, they're going to be around for at least the next 20 years and your protestations and whinging on this board isn't going to change it.

If you feel that strongly about it, find a different way to travel. It won't matter to GN / TL, because quite frankly for every punter like you who chooses to spit his or her dummy out about these, there will be 10 others who start travelling because they might actually get on the train, which they couldn't before.

 

[bramling]

Look - we get it - you don't like the 700s interiors. You never will. But just stop bleating on about it. They're new trains, they're going to be around for at least the next 20 years and your protestations and whinging on this board isn't going to change it.

We've already seen changes made to the interiors. It would be pleasing to see those responsible for the original specification being held to account for their poor judgement.

It won't matter to GN / TL, because quite frankly for every punter like you who chooses to spit his or her dummy out about these, there will be 10 others who start travelling because they might actually get on the train, which they couldn't before.

Being unable to board is simply not a normal experience on GN. I've been using GN for three decades and I've *never* been unable to board.

Yes someone will be able to find an example of a day when there was disruption, or the odd Arsenal tip-out when a 4-car service overloads departing Finsbury Park, but this is very much the exception. The weekend 4-car services are a specific issue which should have been addressed long ago.

 

[bramling]

I’ll bet that the wedged train you saw was a 4 car service, the problem would be solved by doubling up to 8 cars. It doesn’t require the bargain basement interiors of the 700s to achieve this.

I'd say it's a safe bet. Virtually all weekend fast services from Hitchin are 8-car, and generally have plenty of free seats.

 

[bramling]

The bigger risk for the GN is the disruption that will happen when there's a problem in the core, which will screw things up - particularly given the ECML has less capacity to Hitchin than the MML has to Luton or Bedford as a result of the Welwyn Viaduct / Digswell 2 track section.

It doesn't have to be just disruption in the core. Any kind of disruption as far afield as Brighton or Horsham will result in late running. Unless this can be recovered before the train arrives on the GN, it will be out of path, and in consequence likely to somewhere get tangled up with something which has a different stopping pattern. It's quite easy for a service to go from being 5 minutes late to 20 minutes late on the GN just through reactionary delays - in areas like Hatfield/Welwyn, Welwyn viaduct, Stevenage/Hitchin, or on the Cambridge branch.

 

[Hadders]

We've already seen changes made to the interiors. It would be pleasing to see those responsible for the original specification being held to account for their poor judgement

I agree with this. Regular users of GN are not happy with the 700s. Comments I’ve personally heard when travelling on the 700s from Stevenage include:

- is standard so bad to make us pay out more to travel 1st class
- can we have the old trains back

We’ve replaced trains with an excellent, fit for purpose interior for outer suburban services, with trains that are unsuitable for the routes they are serving. In my opinion this was unnecessary.

Passengers are quite right to complain about the interiors. As @bramling says changes have already been made and I suspect the DfT regrets the design they finally chose.

 

[bramling]

I agree with this. Regular users of GN are not happy with the 700s. Comments I’ve personally heard when travelling on the 700s from Stevenage include:

- is standard so bad to make us pay out more to travel 1st class
- can we have the old trains back

We’ve replaced trains with an excellent, fit for purpose interior for outer suburban services, with trains that are unsuitable for the routes they are serving. In my opinion this was unnecessary.

Passengers are quite right to complain about the interiors. As @bramling says changes have already been made and I suspect the DfT regrets the design they finally chose.

Perhaps all the people referring to unboardable services could provide some specific GN services which are unboardable at particular locations - apart from the weekend 4-car services which we already know are an issue, and one which could and should have been addressed years ago.

Taking the earlier example of Hitchin, I'd suggest the only such service may be the 0756 Cambridge-KX, which is a 4-car service at present, although even this just about has room most of the time I've seen it. There is of course *plenty* of room on the services either side, all of which leave Hitchin with many free seats.

Apart from this, we're talking about disruption (which is rare) or the occasional Arsenal match. I don't think everything should be planned around that.

 

[jellybaby]

Aren't all the inner suburban services 6 car now? Have to admit it's been a while since I used the GN, but I'm sure last time all the Moorgates were 6 car.

Not all of them, no. In the middle of the day and later in the evening there are still 3 car trains about.

 

[bramling]

Aren't all the inner suburban services 6 car now? Have to admit it's been a while since I used the GN, but I'm sure last time all the Moorgates were 6 car.

I admire the way you're making statements about GN but admit it's been a while since you've actually used it, which may well explain why your observations appear to be out of step with reality.

As regards the 313s, IIRC all weekday services start as 6-car apart from one 3-car diagram. There is a limited amount of splitting after the morning peak which results in some 3-cars running about during the midday period, but everything joins up again in time for the evening peak again apart from one 3-car diagram. There is then no further dividing until close of traffic.

I can't recall the weekend in so much detail and aren't in a position to confirm where I am writing this, but I *think* everything runs as 6-car on Saturdays and 3-car on Sundays. However please treat this with some caution as others may correct this.

 

[A0]

I admire the way you're making statements about GN but admit it's been a while since you've actually used it, which may well explain why your observations appear to be out of step with reality.

Because statements about for example WGC services being slower are at best misrepresenting the case. As far back as the 1980s the average journey time into KX was about 30 mins and had 3 stops en route. There have only ever been a couple of 'peak' fasts which have got close to the 20 mins, before electrification it was the Cambridge Buffet Express which was the fastest - no I'm not old enough to remember that one, but members of my family did. So to pretend somehow WGC is massively losing out is wrong.

You don't need to be a "regular user" to be able to identify when the facts are wrong or being misrepresented and point it out.

As regards the 313s, IIRC all weekday services start as 6-car apart from one 3-car diagram. There is a limited amount of splitting after the morning peak which results in some 3-cars running about during the midday period, but everything joins up again in time for the evening peak again apart from one 3-car diagram. There is then no further dividing until close of traffic.

I can't recall the weekend in so much detail and aren't in a position to confirm where I am writing this, but I *think* everything runs as 6-car on Saturdays and 3-car on Sundays. However please treat this with some caution as others may correct this.

Well, so my point stands, which is if you're boarding at WGC or Hatfield if the outer suburban service is full and standing, you're far better off getting the inner suburban which is unlikely to be full until most of the way to Finsbury Park. Yes, it's a tad slower but if you're heading to the west-end for example the time loss is minimal with the cross platform interchange at Highbury & Islington.

 

[Class313:)]

3-car diagrams will all go anyway when the 717s come

 

[Class313:)]

Have been wondering, why didnt GN keep its 317s for 8-car workings and just make everything else 12-car. Then capacity wouldnt be a problem. And then the 317s would go when the 700s came.

 

[Domh245]

Have been wondering, why didnt DfT just make all of the 700s 12-car, then we wouldnt have this problem

Most if not all of the platforms on the Sutton loop or the Sevenoaks branch aren't long enough for 12 car trains - they are 8 car platforms max (and occasionally less)

 

[Class313:)]

I see. Could some of GNs 387s go 8 car to do those then*edit* scrap that. All this doesnt explain the use of 4-car trains which is really just dopey. I mean why run a 4-car diagram when we supposedly have spare cl.365s

 

[bramling]

Because statements about for example WGC services being slower are at best misrepresenting the case. As far back as the 1980s the average journey time into KX was about 30 mins and had 3 stops en route. There have only ever been a couple of 'peak' fasts which have got close to the 20 mins, before electrification it was the Cambridge Buffet Express which was the fastest - no I'm not old enough to remember that one, but members of my family did. So to pretend somehow WGC is massively losing out is wrong.

You don't need to be a "regular user" to be able to identify when the facts are wrong or being misrepresented and point it out.



Well, so my point stands, which is if you're boarding at WGC or Hatfield if the outer suburban service is full and standing, you're far better off getting the inner suburban which is unlikely to be full until most of the way to Finsbury Park. Yes, it's a tad slower but if you're heading to the west-end for example the time loss is minimal with the cross platform interchange at Highbury & Islington.

First of all, my point was regarding which GN services are currently too full to board. I’m still waiting to hear examples of these, bar the weekend 4 cars.

As regards the inner suburban services, you’re making the assumption that the following 313 service was running. Weekend reliability on GN has been extremely poor in the last couple of years mainly due to driver availability issues. A train in the platform is worth a thousand trains which might not turn up.

 

[Class313:)]

so true