Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bald Rick]

It doesn't have to be just disruption in the core. Any kind of disruption as far afield as Brighton or Horsham will result in late running. Unless this can be recovered before the train arrives on the GN, it will be out of path, and in consequence likely to somewhere get tangled up with something which has a different stopping pattern. It's quite easy for a service to go from being 5 minutes late to 20 minutes late on the GN just through reactionary delays - in areas like Hatfield/Welwyn, Welwyn viaduct, Stevenage/Hitchin, or on the Cambridge branch.

Not necessarily. This is where the branches south of the river help for passengers in central Lonodn heading north. Problem at Brighton? Catch One that starts at Three Bridges / Horsham / Sevenoaks etc. Yes there will be some delays, but most of the rest of the service will run ok. Naturally the closer the problems to London, the more services will be affected.

I've said before but it is worth restating here. In 1987/8 there were lots of people (many within BR) who were staying that joining up the MML and SR was a massive mistake as problems would transfer from one side to the other. There were plenty of letters in Modern Railways.

However if you asked the average MML TL passenger now if they would like to go back to the old regime of trains only to St Pancras or Moorgate, you will find a very strong opinion that not withstanding the occasionally reliability hiccup (and it is occasional), the cross London service is very much wanted.

 

[Verulamius]

One of the ideas behind the Thameslink trains is to provide capacity over the next 20 years, not just now. So with all the extra housing being planned etc. the new trains will need to cope with the extra passengers.

 

[bramling]

Not necessarily. This is where the branches south of the river help for passengers in central Lonodn heading north. Problem at Brighton? Catch One that starts at Three Bridges / Horsham / Sevenoaks etc. Yes there will be some delays, but most of the rest of the service will run ok. Naturally the closer the problems to London, the more services will be affected.

Once again, everything's fine as long as St. Albans is fine, with its 8 tph service.

Please can you explain to me how all these southern branches would help if I were travelling from London to Arlesey? I'm seeing the 2 tph Horsham - Peterborough off-peak service, and, er, nothing else. What am I missing?

I've said before but it is worth restating here. In 1987/8 there were lots of people (many within BR) who were staying that joining up the MML and SR was a massive mistake as problems would transfer from one side to the other. There were plenty of letters in Modern Railways.

However if you asked the average MML TL passenger now if they would like to go back to the old regime of trains only to St Pancras or Moorgate, you will find a very strong opinion that not withstanding the occasionally reliability hiccup (and it is occasional), the cross London service is very much wanted.

It may all work for the midland, which has two basic service groups north of the river. All stations to Luton, and St Albans then all stations to Bedford. GN has five separate service groups (seven if you consider the 313s), so there's never going to be a turn-up-and-go service.

 

[bramling]

One of the ideas behind the Thameslink trains is to provide capacity over the next 20 years, not just now. So with all the extra housing being planned etc. the new trains will need to cope with the extra passengers.

Don't build the houses then.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Don't build the houses then.

I'm sure the government cares more about the growth of the economy than what someone on an online forum thinks of comfort.

 

[bramling]

I'm sure the government cares more about the growth of the economy than what someone on an online forum thinks of comfort.

The area can barely take more housing anyway. Economic growth certainly won't benefit from a reliable rail service being transformed into an unreliable one.

 

[jon0844]

Service recovery on GN is going to be interesting, as I expect they'll still be a lower priority than Virgin, Hull Trains etc.

On the MML, Thameslink trains will apparently get preference over EM services.

 

[bramling]

Service recovery on GN is going to be interesting, as I expect they'll still be a lower priority than Virgin, Hull Trains etc.

On the MML, Thameslink trains will apparently get preference over EM services.

Even if Thameslink gets absolute priority, there will still be ample scope for Thameslink-on-Thameslink delays...

 

[palmersears]

Good job they didn't throw the gaffer tape away when the 319s went as it's come in handy for 007:

 

[D365]

Good job they didn't throw the gaffer tape away when the 319s went as it's come in handy for 007:

Sad to see that on the Bond unit no less.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because statements about for example WGC services being slower are at best misrepresenting the case. As far back as the 1980s the average journey time into KX was about 30 mins and had 3 stops en route. There have only ever been a couple of 'peak' fasts which have got close to the 20 mins, before electrification it was the Cambridge Buffet Express which was the fastest - no I'm not old enough to remember that one, but members of my family did. So to pretend somehow WGC is massively losing out is wrong.

You don't need to be a "regular user" to be able to identify when the facts are wrong or being misrepresented and point it out.

You are sounding like the GTR press department. If you travel in the peak you are massively disadvantaged by the new time table. Off peak it is better. Therefore people who commute are massively inconvenienced. Would you feel the same way if St Albans had 50% of its peak services journey time increased by 33%. That is a fact. Spinning it GTR style saying off-peak improves doesn’t help us that depend on the service to get to work.

Couple. Try every half hour from 0652 to 0825.

Well, so my point stands, which is if you're boarding at WGC or Hatfield if the outer suburban service is full and standing, you're far better off getting the inner suburban which is unlikely to be full until most of the way to Finsbury Park. Yes, it's a tad slower but if you're heading to the west-end for example the time loss is minimal with the cross platform interchange at Highbury & Islington.

No use however if you want to go to Kings Cross really? Have you used the service. Isn’t exactly reliable is it? What if you prefer a train with a toilet? But again you live in St Albans with 8 tph that actually run. Why is great northerns passengers survey scores falling if everything is perfect. 2nd worse in the UK. Good old GTR.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder how 313 users to Moorgate will find the 717s. Being far older trains, with no toilets, I expect they'll be more popular. On these trains, while those at WGC and Hatfield seem to avoid them and prefer to stand on a busy train to save 10-20 minutes, people further along the line (from around New Barnet south) are very likely to appreciate them.

 

[bramling]

I wonder how 313 users to Moorgate will find the 717s. Being far older trains, with no toilets, I expect they'll be more popular. On these trains, while those at WGC and Hatfield seem to avoid them and prefer to stand on a busy train to save 10-20 minutes, people further along the line (from around New Barnet south) are very likely to appreciate them.

The irony is that they will be probably be rather more fit for purpose than the 700s.

Then cynical side of me suspects most punters will take one look at them and quickly realise they’re still only 6 cars long!

The 313s are horrendous when crush loaded. The Hertford route really could do with some 8-car 700s. They would be far more suitable there compared to Cambridge.

 

[jon0844]

Do we know for sure what the final interior spec is for the 717s (given there were late changes to the LO trains for West Anglia, with longitudinal seating after all).

I assume there's 2+2 seating in the same way as the 700s, but no toilets, but don't they have plug sockets throughout and folding tables? I would say Wi-Fi too, but the GN 700s have this already (including the 8 car that I saw recently at WGC, which I could connect to on the platform!).

I think toilets should be considered as a retrofit in the future, as it was a real missed opportunity. One accessible toilet and one normal should have been enough.

 

[MML]

Most if not all of the platforms on the Sutton loop or the Sevenoaks branch aren't long enough for 12 car trains - they are 8 car platforms max (and occasionally less)

Yet another case of limitations with the Southern network impacting on the capacity of the network North of the River.
Don't get me wrong, I love travelling direct from MML to Gatwick and Brighton without changing, but when most peak hour capacity is simply looking to commute into London in the morning and return in the evening, then sending an 8-car unit on the MML where platforms are 12-car and line capacity becoming more limited is just as wasteful of resources as sending a 12-car unit down to Brighton during rush-hour given that once the unit has performed a single trip down the MML it is then lost on a virtually empty working against the flow South of the River.

1. Given that so many 12-car 700's are now in store, why was my Brighton-Bedford (evening peak service from London) comprised of an 8-car unit with standing passengers yet again ?
2. Are there not more appropriate lines South of the Thames with 12-car platforms which could be incorporated into the Thameslink network and thereby allow all 700's to become 12-car, with those branches with limited platform lengths using 8-car Southern units ?

 

[MML]

Duplicate post deleted

 

[Hadders]

One of the ideas behind the Thameslink trains is to provide capacity over the next 20 years, not just now. So with all the extra housing being planned etc. the new trains will need to cope with the extra passengers.

I get that but why not put a better interior in now and remove seats and ‘dumb down’ at the mid life refurbishment if necessary.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

Yet another case of limitations with the Southern network impacting on the capacity of the network North of the River.
Don't get me wrong, I love travelling direct from MML to Gatwick and Brighton without changing, but when most peak hour capacity is simply looking to commute into London in the morning and return in the evening, then sending an 8-car unit on the MML where platforms are 12-car and line capacity becoming more limited is just as wasteful of resources as sending a 12-car unit down to Brighton during rush-hour given that once the unit has performed a single trip down the MML it is then lost on a virtually empty working against the flow South of the River.

1. Given that so many 12-car 700's are now in store, why was my Brighton-Bedford (evening peak service from London) comprised of an 8-car unit with standing passengers yet again ?
2. Are there not more appropriate lines South of the Thames with 12-car platforms which could be incorporated into the Thameslink network and thereby allow all 700's to become 12-car, with those branches with limited platform lengths using 8-car Southern units ?

This is too simplistic - all the stations on Thameslink to Bright are 12-car except Balcombe. Sutton loop is a different case. Horsham, Littlehampton routes are also good for 12 car at most stations and SDO at others. Many of the MML stations needed platform extensions to cope with 12-car, those in the south that are not 12-car face difficulties being extended.

 

[JonathanH]

1. Given that so many 12-car 700's are now in store, why was my Brighton-Bedford (evening peak service from London) comprised of an 8-car unit with standing passengers yet again ?

There are six diagrams on Bedford to Three Bridges / Brighton that have to be 8-car at the moment because they visit Bedford Carriage Sidings which is restricted to 8-car lengths, some other workings which interwork with Sutton / Sevenoaks trains to cycle 8-car units to Three Bridges and, I guess, for so long as Sevenoaks workings start from Cricklewood Sidings restricted ability to stable 12-cars there too.

 

[jellybaby]

people further along the line (from around New Barnet south) are very likely to appreciate them.

In the morning peak you will usually get a seat if boarding a 313 at New Barnet. That's unlikely to be the case on a 717 so they might not be very popular there.

 

[Class313:)]

Yet another case of limitations with the Southern network impacting on the capacity of the network North of the River.
most peak hour capacity is simply looking to commute into London in the morning and return in the evening, then sending an 8-car unit on the MML where platforms are 12-car and line capacity becoming more limited is just as wasteful of resources as sending a 12-car unit down to Brighton during rush-hour given that once the unit has performed a single trip down the MML it is then lost on a virtually empty working against the flow South of the River.

1. Given that so many 12-car 700's are now in store, why was my Brighton-Bedford (evening peak service from London) comprised of an 8-car unit with standing passengers yet again ?
2. Are there not more appropriate lines South of the Thames with 12-car platforms which could be incorporated into the Thameslink network and thereby allow all 700's to become 12-car, with those branches with limited platform lengths using 8-car Southern units ?

My idea I suggested on another thread was that GN transfer some cl.365s over to TL to operate in 12-car formations on stopping services which terminate at St Pancras. Then most Sutton Loop services could terminate at Blackfriars/London Bridge. Problem solved. Also, given the KGX platform space likel to be freed up by TL through services, I think class 700 Hertford North/WGC inner-surburban class 700 8-car services terminating at KGX at peak time would be benificial

 

[D365]

My idea I suggested on another thread was that GN transfer some cl.365s over to TL to operate in 12-car formations on stopping services which terminate at St Pancras.

Are you implying Great Northern should give up more than 21 365s?

 

[Class313:)]

no, that some of the 21 spares move to TL

 

[A0]

You are sounding like the GTR press department. If you travel in the peak you are massively disadvantaged by the new time table. Off peak it is better. Therefore people who commute are massively inconvenienced. Would you feel the same way if St Albans had 50% of its peak services journey time increased by 33%. That is a fact. Spinning it GTR style saying off-peak improves doesn’t help us that depend on the service to get to work.

Couple. Try every half hour from 0652 to 0825.


No use however if you want to go to Kings Cross really? Have you used the service. Isn’t exactly reliable is it? What if you prefer a train with a toilet? But again you live in St Albans with 8 tph that actually run. Why is great northerns passengers survey scores falling if everything is perfect. 2nd worse in the UK. Good old GTR.

Wrong. I don't live in St Albans. I used to live in WGC but have NEVER lived in St Albans.

 

[Class313:)]

Considering GN are meant to have spare 365s they really should just lengthen all KGX services to 12 car

 

[JonathanH]

Considering GN are meant to have spare 365s they really should just lengthen all KGX services to 12 car

Part of the reason the trains are going through to Thameslink is the 8-car length of Kings Cross platforms 9 to 11. The railway can't sort out all infrastructure problems at once!

 

[skyhigh]

My idea I suggested on another thread was that GN transfer some cl.365s over to TL to operate in 12-car formations on stopping services which terminate at St Pancras.

How often do services terminate at St Pancras?

 

[Hadders]

Considering GN are meant to have spare 365s they really should just lengthen all KGX services to 12 car

It's not possible to do this due to platform lengths at Kings Cross, platforms not long enough for 12-car units at other stations (and 365s not having SDO), plus 12-car trains requiring manual dispatch.

That said they cold make sure all services are at least 8-car (weekend stopping services for example)

 

[Class313:)]

How often do services terminate at St Pancras?

Doesnt matter what happens now...

 

[Class313:)]

It's not possible to do this due to platform lengths at Kings Cross, platforms not long enough for 12-car units at other stations (and 365s not having SDO), plus 12-car trains requiring manual dispatch.

That said they cold make sure all services are at least 8-car (weekend stopping services for example)

ive seen 12-car 365s before...