Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

There are not 1,146 seats on an 8-car 700.

You said capacity, - and to passengers who can't even get on a train in the peak it's capacity that matters.

 

[Failed Unit]

You said capacity, - and to passengers who can't even get on a train in the peak it's capacity that matters.

You are lucky on the Thameslink side.

12 coach trains on all services Bedford services and increase in capacity when many were 8 in the past.

I think Stevenage will be the same. Fastest services 12 cars.

It is just south of Stevenage that are hit. Slower services less seats. (Although hopefully that will put people from Stevenage off using them). No core services until 2020 (If ever).

Saying that - my biggest gripes are the timetables not the train. Impacting 3 of the largest flows on great northern.

 

[Hadders]

I think Stevenage will be the same. Fastest services 12 cars

I don’t think that’s right. 3 of the 4 Stevenage fast trains will be to/from Cambridge which I believe are 8 cars.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don’t think that’s right. 3 of the 4 Stevenage fast trains will be to/from Cambridge which I believe are 8 cars.

My understanding is it is only the ones stopping at Welwyn etc that are 8 cars. The “Semi-Fast’s” will be 12. Could of course be wrong.

Hopefully with the Welwyn ones not planned to run through the core, Stevenage people will prefer the ones that will. Both of them...

 

[Hadders]

My understanding is it is only the ones stopping at Welwyn etc that are 8 cars. The “Semi-Fast’s” will be 12. Could of course be wrong.

Hopefully with the Welwyn ones not planned to run through the core, Stevenage people will prefer the ones that will. Both of them...

Do the numbers stack up? Most of the 700s are 8-car. I believe the Bedford-Brighton and the Peterboroughs are 12 so there won’t be many 12s left to run elsewhere.

 

[D365]

I believe the Bedford-Brighton and the Peterboroughs are 12...

I was under the impression that was always the plan, but it's hard to say with the amount of speculation that has gone on.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do the numbers stack up? Most of the 700s are 8-car. I believe the Bedford-Brighton and the Peterboroughs are 12 so there won’t be many 12s left to run elsewhere.

Probably not. They have taken down the transforming rail website. But I thought all Brighton - Cambridge were 12 coaches.

 

[Minstral25]

Just doing a bit of tracing the timetables from the consultation.

TL1 - BED to BTN needs 11 units
TL2 - BED to GTW needs 10
TL5 - PBO to HOR needs 12
TL6 - CAM to BTN needs 11

That's 44 of the 55 12 car units accounted for.

Add TL3 East Grinstead 6 units in peak, TL4 Littlehampton 3 units - now we have accounted for 53 units leaving 2 in maintenance.

.

I posted this a while back showing 12 coach trains would be used on all Cambridge to Brighton services and these call at Stevenage - I think someone queried my TL3 and TL4 numbers as slightly low so there may be an odd 8 car in the mix

 

[ijmad]

Not sure how well the Wikipedia page is holding up in light of recent revisions to the timetable proposals, but it was well sourced around six months ago and shows the intended train lengths, at least:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink#Thameslink_Programme

 

[bramling]

You said capacity, - and to passengers who can't even get on a train in the peak it's capacity that matters.

You can keep repeating the same soundbites as much as you want, however being unable to board trains is simply not a relevant issue to many passengers. Being unable to get a seat *is*.

Apart from the weekend 4-car services, there are very few GN services where it's not possible to board - even during disruption. You seem to assume that everywhere has the same issues and priorities as St Albans.

 

[Paul London]

That train is supposed to be a 700/0 - but it may be the case that Thameslink and Siemens are putting 12 cars out on 8 car diagrams (where feasible, ie not to Sevenoaks or Sutton)

Hmm. Knew it was too good to be true. Back to 700/0 today and almost impossible to get on by Blackfriars.

 

[Class313:)]

dats one hell of a lot of ppl

 

[Minstral25]

Not sure how well the Wikipedia page is holding up in light of recent revisions to the timetable proposals, but it was well sourced around six months ago and shows the intended train lengths, at least:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink#Thameslink_Programme

Pretty sure that's wrong showing 12 car on Rainham services. There isn't enough 12 cars to service Luton to Rainham so it will have to be 8 car - the Tattenham service it replaces would have been 8-car.

 

[Bald Rick]

You can keep repeating the same soundbites as much as you want, however being unable to board trains is simply not a relevant issue to many passengers. Being unable to get a seat *is*.

Apart from the weekend 4-car services, there are very few GN services where it's not possible to board - even during disruption. You seem to assume that everywhere has the same issues and priorities as St Albans.

Well, that depends on how you measure it, and opinion. For those who are not able to board it is a very relevant issue. Before the 700s, there would be, typically, 500 people at St Albans, and a smaller number at Mill Hill and Cricklewood, who couldn't board their first choice of train most mornings. A similar number at St Pancras most evenings. In any disruption (as little as one train out of path, or one cancellation), it was reasonably certain you couldn't board your first choice of train anywhere south of St Albans inclusive unless you were particularly pushy. If two or three trains in a row were disrupted, you would often have to let two go. My record was 4.

I would argue that not being able to get on your chosen train at all is a worse experience for a passenger than being able to get on but not get a seat when you expect one.

Clearly on the GN some people who did get a seat previously won't now with the 700s. However it is also absolutely the case that a large majority of those who got a seat previously still will. A 12 car 365 has 789 seats, 717 / 72 standard / first class (the latter in my experience, never ever filled more than 50% in the peak by first class ticket holders). A 12 car 700 has 666 seats at 614/52. So roughly 100 fewer standard seats per train, ie 14% of passengers, on a like for like basis who previously may have got a seat may not in future.

But that excludes the fact that many of the trains will in future be 12 car replacing 8 cars today, which represents an increase of 188 standard seats per train. The net effect in the peak, IIRC, is more seats from almost all Class 700 served stations north of Hatfield inclusive. Plus a lot more standing capacity. And off peak it is considerably more seats.

 

[Failed Unit]

Hatfield and WGC only will see 8 Car class 700. They have less seats than today and a slower journey. 33% slowed than currently.

 

[bramling]

Hatfield and WGC only will see 8 Car class 700. They have less seats than today and a slower journey. 33% slowed than currently.

Deaf ears. It's rather clear that St Albans is the only place which seems to matter to certain people! 20 minutes to London and at least 8 trains per hour so it doesn't really matter how uncomfortable or unreliable.

 

[MML]

Spotted a design flaw with the baggage racks today. The floor of the ground level stowage is level with the rest of the compartment (presumably for ease of cleaning). I watched a trolley suitcase depart from it's stowage at a reasonable pace, roll across the carriage on it's own. Had the owner, who was his mobile phone at the time not realised, the case would have topple out of the opening doors in the core. Luckily, he noticed and jumped up to rescue it.

A small lip around the base of the luggage rack would prevent the movement of wheeled devices. Vorsprung durch technik as they say in Germany.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I still think the proportion of 700/0 to 700/1 is wrong.
Too many 8-car units are operating on the Brighton route, particularly during peak hours.
One can only hope a decision is made to extend some units to allow more services to be operated by 12-car units.

Its hard to judge at the moment as I think a lot more of the 60 8-car 700s have been delivered - maybe 50 plus. Whereas out of the 55 12-car 700s ordered maybe only 25 are here. I remember that after the first 15 or so 12-car 700s were delivered the plan was to deliver most of the 8-car 700s. There was a list showing what gets delivered on this thread iirc

Found a 30 month old delivery schedule click here. Which does not entirely prove my point.

I did a stint of observing at St Pancras on Friday 26/01/2018 from 15:00 to 19:40 and then more later. I noticed most services through the core seemed to be 8-car with maybe only 20% being 12-car. I wonder where they atre hiding the 12-car 700s ?. I also noticed a number of Southbound services waited around 6 minutes to keep time and I did not notice Northbound services doing the same.

One irritation was that the manual announcements were often interrupted by feedback !.

What I also noticed was that the 12-car 17:29 to Brighton formsed bt 700122 was shown as NOT stopping at four stations (incl Balcombe iirc). Verbal announcement said not calling at these stations due to a fault on the train. No mention was made of using the train and changing at East Croydon/Gatwick/ThreeBridges which is what I would do. I assume these stations have short platforms and so I assume the SDO was not working ?.

 

[APUK002]

Probably not. They have taken down the transforming rail website. But I thought all Brighton - Cambridge were 12 coaches.

The website has changed to railplan something.

 

[bramling]

Well, that depends on how you measure it, and opinion. For those who are not able to board it is a very relevant issue. Before the 700s, there would be, typically, 500 people at St Albans, and a smaller number at Mill Hill and Cricklewood, who couldn't board their first choice of train most mornings. A similar number at St Pancras most evenings. In any disruption (as little as one train out of path, or one cancellation), it was reasonably certain you couldn't board your first choice of train anywhere south of St Albans inclusive unless you were particularly pushy. If two or three trains in a row were disrupted, you would often have to let two go. My record was 4.

With respect, once again you're referring to London-St Albans.

I would argue that not being able to get on your chosen train at all is a worse experience for a passenger than being able to get on but not get a seat when you expect one.

Again, not being able to get on your chosen train at St Albans may be an unpleasant experience. If so, how about moving elsewhere so they don't have this problem?

Clearly on the GN some people who did get a seat previously won't now with the 700s.

Quite so.

However it is also absolutely the case that a large majority of those who got a seat previously still will. A 12 car 365 has 789 seats, 717 / 72 standard / first class (the latter in my experience, never ever filled more than 50% in the peak by first class ticket holders). A 12 car 700 has 666 seats at 614/52. So roughly 100 fewer standard seats per train, ie 14% of passengers, on a like for like basis who previously may have got a seat may not in future.

Which is a lot, especially in the morning as it will likely be the same people from the same stations each morning. (As has already happened on the two up services where the 700s have already appeared).

But that excludes the fact that many of the trains will in future be 12 car replacing 8 cars today, which represents an increase of 188 standard seats per train. The net effect in the peak, IIRC, is more seats from almost all Class 700 served stations north of Hatfield inclusive. Plus a lot more standing capacity. And off peak it is considerably more seats.

Off-peak is pretty irrelevant on the GN outers, as virtually all services are now 8 cars (*). There are plenty of M-F midday services where there are only a handful of people per carriage. As for the peaks, we wait to see just how many 12-car services there will actually be. One can't help but remember that the majority of class 700s are 8 cars only, and they won't be vanishing into thin air during the peaks.

(*with the notable exception of the stopping services)

In the meantime, there are going to be some highly disgruntled passengers travelling into London from places like Hitchin and Stevenage next month. I'm sure they would be very pleased to hear how wonderful the class 700s are for St Albans commuters.

 

[Railcar]

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere in the previous 310 pages, but what causes the very distinctive 'whistling' noise? Pulsed, not continuous and from somewhere external to the passenger compartment. All the 700s do it, so it must be a design feature. It seems surprising that Seimens would allow modern machinery to generate that level of noise pollution.

 

[Domh245]

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere in the previous 310 pages, but what causes the very distinctive 'whistling' noise? Pulsed, not continuous and from somewhere external to the passenger compartment. All the 700s do it, so it must be a design feature. It seems surprising that Seimens would allow modern machinery to generate that level of noise pollution.

Do you mean this noise? If so, it's the traction equipment, and it's been common to all the UK Desiros since the the 360s/450, although the Desiro cities only make that noise on third rail.

 

[Railcar]

Yes, that's the noise. Living in The Land Of The Third Rail I hear it all the time. Still objectionable, though. 'Traction equipment' is a broad term. What two things are rubbing against each other, and why?

 

[Domh245]

Yes, that's the noise. Living in The Land Of The Third Rail I hear it all the time. Still objectionable, though. 'Traction equipment' is a broad term. What two things are rubbing against each other, and why?

I understand that is the inverter - the electrical equipment that turns the DC supply into an variable frequency/voltage AC supply to rotate the motors*. Hopefully there are't any things rubbing at all! The electrostars (and 332/333s)'s equipment makes a far more quiet and constant noise.

*Basic explanation - I'm sure @D365 could provide a far more detailed explanation.

 

[Bald Rick]

What two things are rubbing against each other, and why?

Electrons.

I'm no traction engineer, but IIRC it's the IGBTs switching in the traction packs, generating the variable frequencies.

 

[Bald Rick]

With respect, once again you're referring to London-St Albans.

Again, not being able to get on your chosen train at St Albans may be an unpleasant experience. If so, how about moving elsewhere so they don't have this problem?.

One could say the same about the good folk on the ECML who currently* have a lower chance of finding a seat. But that's churlish.

But it's not just St Albans, it's pretty much all 9 stations from St Albans to St Pancras. Which sees 23m passengers pa. (Coincidentally the same number who use ECML services to KX from all stations south of Peterborough and Cambridge (excl) to Hatfield (incl)). It's also those people who can't board on the Catford loop, or at Herne Hill or Loughborough Junction, or Redhill.

* I still stand by the point that when the full timetable is in place, there will be more peak seats on the ECML from almost every 700 served station north of Hatfield than there are today, or there were before the 387s arrived.

I also stand by the point that of all the people I know who use the 700s, who come from all over the routes they serve (including the ECML, Brighton Line, Wimbledon loop, Catford Loop, MML to Bedford), only a very small percentage don't like them. One thing I haven't mentioned before is that all of those I know who don't like them work for the rail industry. The muggles simply don't care.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would agree with your point if it was Stevenage and north. Hatfield, WGC etc definitely have less. Still 4x 8 coach tph in the peak to kx and same to Moorgate. Just with less seats.

(Hoping that less people from Stevenage and further north use them with thier increased frequency to Finsbury Park we will see but we could yet have a benefit)

Be interesting in the evening. Do i go to st Pancras? Do i go to KX which will get me home quicker? Personally I would go for KX. A train on a platform is worth 2 in the Thameslink core.

 

[JonathanH]

Its hard to judge at the moment as I think a lot more of the 60 8-car 700s have been delivered - maybe 50 plus. Whereas out of the 55 12-car 700s ordered maybe only 25 are here. I remember that after the first 15 or so 12-car 700s were delivered the plan was to deliver most of the 8-car 700s. There was a list showing what gets delivered on this thread iirc

Found a 30 month old delivery schedule click here. Which does not entirely prove my point.

I did a stint of observing at St Pancras on Friday 26/01/2018 from 15:00 to 19:40 and then more later. I noticed most services through the core seemed to be 8-car with maybe only 20% being 12-car. I wonder where they atre hiding the 12-car 700s ?. I also noticed a number of Southbound services waited around 6 minutes to keep time and I did not notice Northbound services doing the same.

Actually the deliveries have been in line with the schedule posted 30 months ago. There are 45 700/1s delivered to the UK and 49 700/0s. It's just that a lot of the 700/1s aren't in use at any point in time - 20 weekday diagrams (11 core, 5 Brighton, 2 Horsham / Littlehampton, 2 Peterborough) and most of the 700/0s are in use - 40 weekday diagrams. It appears that about 6 700/0 diagrams change to 700/1s when Cauldwell sidings become available for more than one 12-car in the near future. From that point, there are very few 8-car workings to East Croydon and beyond - presumably just enough to cycle the units to Three Bridges depot for maintenance.

 

[hassaanhc]

Again, not being able to get on your chosen train at St Albans may be an unpleasant experience. If so, how about moving elsewhere so they don't have this problem?

Or maybe you people who actually have a problem with the trains follow your own advice?

In the meantime, there are going to be some highly disgruntled passengers travelling into London from places like Hitchin and Stevenage next month. I'm sure they would be very pleased to hear how wonderful the class 700s are for St Albans commuters.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Whereas out of the 55 12-car 700s ordered maybe only 25 are here.

There's more than that; I've already got 24 for haulage and seen at least 5 more and I know I haven't seen all of those that have been delivered.