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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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AM9

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I don't know. One presumes at this stage it's now a problem as many trains have been built and presumably the remaining seats have already been procured.

The simple fact as far as I'm concerned is they should have been specified in the first place, in the same way as the legroom in the window seats should also have been fit for purpose.

That is precisely my view. The trains are here, and nobody is likely to stop the whole programme for tables, armrests, power outlets etc., the stakes are just too politically high.
For the record, I can understand that some have issues with their comfort on the trains, but the order is just too big and the delivery too intensive to halt, what with the impending completion of London Bridge, the readiness of the Canal Tunnels and the need for the very high capacity that the trains bring to the network.
So repeated complaining to the TOC, who does not have a responsibility for the fitment of the trains, won't make any difference. Maybe when the deliveries are completed and full services are operating a more rational assessment may be taken. My guess would be that such work could be scheduled by temporarily removing any non-core services from class 700 duties allowing a few trains at a time to be sent away for some modifications. The hire of their replacements would of course, need to be paid for and despite the Thameslink routes being amongst the most profitable in the UK, the unbudgeted cost might be enough for the Dft (or their successor) to see it a too difficult, and extend any 'promises' about the likely timetable.
The next opportunity might then be the mid-life refit, which in material, labour and budgetary terms, would probably be possible within the scope of the budget. Hence my comments that any Twitter postings, especially from TOC staff, probably have little relation to the true state of decision-making on the matter.
 
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bramling

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That is precisely my view. The trains are here, and nobody is likely to stop the whole programme for tables, armrests, power outlets etc., the stakes are just too politically high.
For the record, I can understand that some have issues with their comfort on the trains, but the order is just too big and the delivery too intensive to halt, what with the impending completion of London Bridge, the readiness of the Canal Tunnels and the need for the very high capacity that the trains bring to the network.
So repeated complaining to the TOC, who does not have a responsibility for the fitment of the trains, won't make any difference. Maybe when the deliveries are completed and full services are operating a more rational assessment may be taken. My guess would be that such work could be scheduled by temporarily removing any non-core services from class 700 duties allowing a few trains at a time to be sent away for some modifications. The hire of their replacements would of course, need to be paid for and despite the Thameslink routes being amongst the most profitable in the UK, the unbudgeted cost might be enough for the Dft (or their successor) to see it a too difficult, and extend any 'promises' about the likely timetable.
The next opportunity might then be the mid-life refit, which in material, labour and budgetary terms, would probably be possible within the scope of the budget. Hence my comments that any Twitter postings, especially from TOC staff, probably have little relation to the true state of decision-making on the matter.

To be honest, considering the prospect that these trains have a book life of around 40 years, I'd prefer the specification errors to be corrected sooner rather than later even if it results in extra costs -- and I'd also like to see the people who made these errors held to account if they're still working in the industry.

It's all very well saying things will settle down, but in reality thousands of people will be subject to uncomfortable journeys on a daily basis because of this incompetence.

Failing that, they can export the whole fleet, or even scrap them, for all I care. I for one will use the car in preference to being forced to sit at 45 degrees on an uncomfortable seat wedged against a seat back. I'm glad I don't travel at peaks times so I have the choice available to me, and I feel sorry for those who don't have this option realistically.
 
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jaig

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On the 1208 from Bedford to Brighton. No screens and no announcements from the driver. Bit poor for a new train to provide no information to those with visual impairments, or indeed those who are deaf.
We're you on 112? Where did you go on the Class 700?

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
 

jon0844

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We both know that's ridiculous..ly accurate.
I've been on 319s with the stickers on but the displays scrolling text behind!

We're you on 112? Where did you go on the Class 700?
I think it was 109, taken all the way to Brighton. There was a 700 to Three Bridges half an hour before (we got on at St Albans) so for a while I thought they'd be running all day!

Coming back we let a 319 go and took a 377/5 later. Would have gone to Victoria but no trains, or to London Bridge (staff shortages).

I am somewhat confused that ALL the 377/5s at Brighton (4 sets) at the time, including ours, have the new logo.

11b6577f99080036a558b72075f99d27.jpg


617d89d359059f3aacd0ce6fa6871204.jpg


581f135fa3c5a5f7c5eb30df24fd3560.jpg


Edit: lack of trains means it's now almost crush loaded having arrived at Gatwick with shed loads of people trying to get on.
 
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jaig

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I've been on 319s with the stickers on but the displays scrolling text behind!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it was 109. There was a 700 to Three Bridges half an hour before (we got on at St Albans) so for a while I thought they'd be running all day!

Coming back we let a 319 go and took a 377/5 later.

I am somewhat confused that ALL the 377/5s at Brighton (4 sets) at the time, including ours, have the new logo.
I was on 112 today from St Pancras International to East Croydon, working 2W37. Mine must have been the Three Bridges one!! PIS wasn't working - First time I've experienced this out of four rides.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
 

jon0844

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I was on 112 today from St Pancras International to East Croydon, working 2W37. Mine must have been the Three Bridges one!! PIS wasn't working - First time I've experienced this out of four rides.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
The screens are definitely not working properly, and IMO should be treated as seriously as any other train fault.

I'm not saying a train should be cancelled because of it, but drivers either take over the role of providing information or Siemens gets hit with penalties for not putting trains out that are able to comply with regulations.

During the introduction stage, does Siemens have a stay of execution?
 

jaig

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The screens are definitely not working properly, and IMO should be treated as seriously as any other train fault.

I'm not saying a train should be cancelled because of it, but drivers either take over the role of providing information or Siemens gets hit with penalties for not putting trains out that are able to comply with regulations.

The driver did try turning on the PIS (I think that's what it's called) but it still wasn't working. Instead there was an announcement sound very similar to the arrivals lounge in Heathrow Terminal 5 followed by the driver saying 'Hello?' and then saying ' train is ready to depart, please mind the doors'. I'm going to be uploading to YouTube my journey, and maybe blog about it too!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
 

jon0844

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Our driver did a couple of announcements, including an explanation of us waiting outside East Croydon (waiting for a freight train to pass) and if was incredibly muffled and kept cutting out.

Dodgy mic? Or the driver not speaking into it correctly (and the gain control might have clipped the audio).
 

387star

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I've been on 319s with the stickers on but the displays scrolling text behind!


I think it was 109, taken all the way to Brighton. There was a 700 to Three Bridges half an hour before (we got on at St Albans) so for a while I thought they'd be running all day!

Coming back we let a 319 go and took a 377/5 later. Would have gone to Victoria but no trains, or to London Bridge (staff shortages).

I am somewhat confused that ALL the 377/5s at Brighton (4 sets) at the time, including ours, have the new logo.

11b6577f99080036a558b72075f99d27.jpg


617d89d359059f3aacd0ce6fa6871204.jpg


581f135fa3c5a5f7c5eb30df24fd3560.jpg


Edit: lack of trains means it's now almost crush loaded having arrived at Gatwick with shed loads of people trying to get on.

Class 377/5 are undergoing refresh which involves the fcc vinyl being taken off and new logos affixed

How many have been done now out of interest?

It is a pretty basic job internally - new side panels and carpet that's it
 

Islineclear3_1

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Class 377/5 are undergoing refresh which involves the fcc vinyl being taken off and new logos affixed

How many have been done now out of interest?

I have seen 501, 504, 505, either 506 or 508 (or both), 510, 511 and 512 but there may be others

I saw 700109 and 700112 twice today, both passed me on each occasion on time.
 
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Class377/5

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Here you are, I cannot copy and paste from the pdf, but amongst others, paragraph 2 on page 2 is relevant, where it says that FCC were contracted to advise on interior layout:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...ach/3/150119 FoI Response to Hollinghurst.pdf

There's another fairly definitive DfT statement on the what do they know website regarding tables now though, and this one can be copied, my bold:

I still think that the physical work involved in retro-fitting tables is not that simple a job - but this document does clearly show that DfT are aware of the issue.

The document clearly doesn't state FCC made the decision so that was your own version of event that isn't supported in facts sadly. Being responsible for developing interior doesn't mean you signed off what was ordered. That lays firmed at the DfT's door.

A few facts here, dear sir:

The PIS has to be set up on 700s. We can't negate to set it up because we are "feeling lazy". The train won't move without it. However, several of the units (in fact pretty much all the ones i've driven) have many a software issue and one of the things that is repeatedly failing is PIS. This also causes problems with door opening resulting in the need for a manual override release at almost every station. Frustrating and slows things down.

Funnily enough I was only wondering the other day why PIS seems to be such a difficult thing to get working on trains. We still have plenty of PIS failures with 377/387s.

The PIS is more complex than a train thing. Worth noting it's tied into the SDO and a remote server (its cloud based tech). However recent failure are not the units nor the drivers fault.

However the way the 700s work for door release and way the drivers work compared to the 377/387 fleet means it's bit more difficult to manage. Not all drivers are dealing with the problems the same either as some have picked up the trick of checking what door release you have prior to trying to give it. This is firmly a used to the units things.

700016 May had the title of being the first 700 to traverse the WCML, The unit worked as 5X73 13:45 Three Bridges Up Depot - Ferme Park and may hold that title as due to the closure of the North London Line, the service took an alternative route reversing at Acton Lane Junction, before heading back towards Ferme Park Via Primrose Hill and the KX incline.

There several 700s that have been to Acton.

I've

I am somewhat confused that ALL the 377/5s at Brighton (4 sets) at the time, including ours, have the new logo.

Not sure why your confused. The viynal were ordered in 2014 after GTR won the franchise where as the 377/5 new logos were ordered in 2016 after the new logo (although 377501 carried the initial GTR logo as the new viynal weren't deliveries at this point).

The replacing of the viynal on the 700s means someone still got to pay for the current logo as well as the new one to replace them all. At over 2,000 of them, it isn't going to be cheap.
 

AM9

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To be honest, considering the prospect that these trains have a book life of around 40 years, I'd prefer the specification errors to be corrected sooner rather than later even if it results in extra costs -- and I'd also like to see the people who made these errors held to account if they're still working in the industry.

It's all very well saying things will settle down, but in reality thousands of people will be subject to uncomfortable journeys on a daily basis because of this incompetence.

Failing that, they can export the whole fleet, or even scrap them, for all I care. I for one will use the car in preference to being forced to sit at 45 degrees on an uncomfortable seat wedged against a seat back. I'm glad I don't travel at peaks times so I have the choice available to me, and I feel sorry for those who don't have this option realistically.

You will obviously do what suits you best. The majority of passengers will continue to use the trains, - a few of them under duress. A few extra drivers into London probably won't be anywhere near the increase in rail passengers over the same or similar journeys to work.
 

jon0844

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My point regarding the logos is clear. If they couldn't put it on the new trains, they either delayed the change or didn't do it all.

I'd have gone with the latter option as it would have saved money. Money Govia didn't need to waste.

They were changing their logo, not that of the previous operator! A logo that looked (looks) just fine.
 
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JaJaWa

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My point regarding the logos is clear. If they couldn't put it on the new trains, they either delayed the change or didn't do it all.

I'd have gone with the latter option as it would have saved money. Money Govia didn't need to waste.

They were changing their logo, not that of the previous operator! A logo that looked (looks) just fine.

You may not be pleased to know that Southern also have gained a new logo.
 

jon0844

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You may not be pleased to know that Southern also have gained a new logo.
I think I saw that and it's not that massively different. Again I ask why?

Given all the problems of late, I'd almost understand if once sorted Govia decided to call it something entirely new, but a new logo isn't going to change anything. Same URL, same spelling when talked about in the media etc.

Obviously at the end of the day, I don't really care that much but it does seem silly, pointless and just makes GTR look like it doesn't know what it is doing. It also gives ample ammunition to those already angry with the company.

Seems like a PR fail to me.
 
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ComUtoR

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The PIS is more complex than a train thing. Worth noting it's tied into the SDO and a remote server (its cloud based tech). However recent failure are not the units nor the drivers fault.

Database issue ? Diagramming (schedules) issue ?

We often have PIS code issues and they can be traced back to the wrong codes being printed on our diagrams or left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing in terms of calling patterns etc.

I've lost track of the number of PIS codes not matching what my diagram states. Is that potentially what's happening with 700's ?

As to the used to units thing. Any tips ?
 

tsr

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I've attached a screenprint of it. It wont make much, if any difference to the normal passenger.

The logo might not look too different but things like posters and leaflets should now be starting to use a much-refreshed design, which is actually quite different.

It's still reasonably subtle but things like station posters will look visibly different once the rollout is complete. In order not to waste resources, it's only being done when the work is needed, much like the (rather less neat, IMO) ThamesLink/ branding. No idea if any liveries will change but I rather have my doubts for the near future.
 
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tsr

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Surely the best way to reduce wastage would have been to not rebrand in the first place?

"In order not to discard stuff which has already been printed" might be better.

FWIW, I would say that out of all the brand refresh activities under GTR, I reckon this is quite possibly the best, and looks neat enough, in an understated sort of way. Some of the pictograms, vector drawings and suchlike for the new posters are really quite satisfying. I personally also quite like the work for Gatwick Express but I think that's a bit more controversial.

Although the myriad of operational difficulties are obviously what many would consider the pressing issue at hand, there would be no point in getting a communications and (within that) graphic design team to deal with many of those problems anyway... if they can get to work with visual materials in a refreshed style which looks a bit more positive for a side of the company which has not seen this part of its image overhauled for a while, then I see nothing wrong with it.

I only speak as a member of operational rail staff who also has a background in graphic and product design...
 

Mike395

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Just a quick reminder that this thread is about the Class 700s, which aren't likely to be used on Southern services any time soon, so their logo is not remotely relevant here ;). Please start a new topic if you want to discuss it further. Thanks! :)
 

tsr

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Just a quick reminder that this thread is about the Class 700s, which aren't likely to be used on Southern services any time soon, so their logo is not remotely relevant here ;). Please start a new topic if you want to discuss it further. Thanks! :)

Doffs cap, shuffles backwards towards alternative forums :p
 

sarahj

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Just a quick reminder that this thread is about the Class 700s, which aren't likely to be used on Southern services any time soon, so their logo is not remotely relevant here ;). Please start a new topic if you want to discuss it further. Thanks! :)

Someone might have said the same thing about 387's in Gatwick Express colours, which then spent the last weekend working TL services from London Bridge.

But anyway, the 700's, nice train, shame about the inside, or the PIS, or the......
 

JB_B

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...The PIS is more complex than a train thing. Worth noting it's tied into the SDO and a remote server (its cloud based tech). However recent failure are not the units nor the drivers fault.

However the way the 700s work for door release and way the drivers work compared to the 377/387 fleet means it's bit more difficult to manage. Not all drivers are dealing with the problems the same either as some have picked up the trick of checking what door release you have prior to trying to give it. This is firmly a used to the units things.

Interesting - My last trip on 700 (about 14 days ago) we had a 30s door delay on each arrival - Driver apologized saying that a recent software update prevented the (SDO?) beacons from being recognized and so needed a manual overide each time.

I've also heard that there is no efficient method for cleaning the plastic floors on 700s and the problem is being referred back to Siemens - is that true?
 

jon0844

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The floors always look spotless when a I've been on one (cue my next experience to be totally the opposite!).
 

JB_B

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The floors always look spotless when a I've been on one (cue my next experience to be totally the opposite!).

My understanding is that they can be cleaned - it's just much more labour intensive than anticipated.
 

jon0844

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My understanding is that they can be cleaned - it's just much more labour intensive than anticipated.
So we're going to see trains go out dirty because of a shortage of cleaning crew now too? :)
 
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