Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

If that's it, then the acceleration on AC must be like the E231 Yamanote Line trains from Japan... hock:

Except that the E321s are metro trains and geared for a maximum of 75mph. The class 700s accelerate quickly up to 100mph.

Can't wait to see the 700's on ATO!!

Of course they will be below 50mph in the core so ATO will just give consistent speed profiles including up and down the 1:29 ramps.

 

[Bald Rick]

The ATO extends out to the Bermondsey Dive Under. Southbound trains departing London Bridge will get the full 0-60 effect on ATO.

Although I doubt the acceleration will be quicker than with a Bedford driver leaving West Hampstead northbound on his last turn before a week of rest days.

 

[fusionblue]

The 465/466s and 376s do this jerky "jump forward" thing when trying to move from stationary when it rains a little bit.

Do the 700s do this or is this traction issues or something specific to DC Land?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 465/466s and 376s do this jerky "jump forward" thing when trying to move from stationary when it rains a little bit.

Do the 700s do this or is this traction issues or something specific to DC Land?

Do you mean wheelslip? All modern Southern EMUs have an anti-wheelslip mechanism

 

[asylumxl]

Except that the E321s are metro trains and geared for a maximum of 75mph. The class 700s accelerate quickly up to 100mph.



Of course they will be below 50mph in the core so ATO will just give consistent speed profiles including up and down the 1:29 ramps.

I've still yet to experience this phenomenal acceleration despite using 700s several times. I must have been unlucky.

How does their acceleration compare to a 395 on AC?

 

[bramling]

Out of touch? You buy something that entitles regular use, its your decision if you don't use it every day but that doesn't change the fact that what it allows. Rewriting facts to suit your own agenda isn't helping your case.

Yes, out of touch.

You said that I "buy a season to travel every day".

I then pointed out that this is not correct. For myself and many others. There are plenty of other reasons why a season ticket has benefits, even if for me it would probably be cheaper buying daily tickets.

You still argue the point.

You keep demonstrating that you are simply out of touch with customer needs and realities.

Frankly, this is the sort of rigid inflexibility and "I'm always right" attitude the industry could well do without.

Funny how you can't see past your own selfish needs today and want to condemn future travellers to crappy travel because its what you want. Sorry but its called public transport and the needs of the many out weight your personal requirements.

Judging my the considerable negative reaction to elements of the class 700 design/specification here and elsewhere, it's hardly just my own personal requirements. Myself and many others would see having to sit wedged up against a wall with their feet resting on a duct as "crappy travel", or standing for ages on a busy St Pancras International platform waiting for a train which has been delayed somewhere in Sussex and then misses out their stop in order to recover the time as "crappy travel".

 

[jon0844]

Myself and many others would see having to sit wedged up against a wall with their feet resting on a duct as "crappy travel", or standing for ages on a busy St Pancras International platform waiting for a train which has been delayed somewhere in Sussex and then misses out their stop in order to recover the time as "crappy travel".

I'd likely choose an aisle seat in any case, but if I did take a window seat (and I have on a 700) then you can just sit as necessary to get comfortable - and the person next to you is more than likely going to shift over a bit to take advantage of the huge aisle space. I'm not exactly skinny, and I manage.

I don't think anyone can say they're going to be wedged. Anyone who has sat on a 3+2 train would know what wedged is.

Obviously there are valid complaints about the timekeeping of some of the 700s at the moment. Of course, it's not as if 319s and 377/387s are perfect all the time. Can anyone remember delays in the core before the 700 introduction? Pretty sure it happened!

 

[bramling]

I'd likely choose an aisle seat in any case, but if I did take a window seat (and I have on a 700) then you can just sit as necessary to get comfortable - and the person next to you is more than likely going to shift over a bit to take advantage of the huge aisle space. I'm not exactly skinny, and I manage.

I don't think anyone can say they're going to be wedged. Anyone who has sat on a 3+2 train would know what wedged is.

I'd say sitting in a window seat on a class 700 is comparable to being in the middle seat of three on a class 317 if there's someone next to you. In fact, worse, because being 2+2 there's a higher probability of someone sitting there compared to 2+3.

(I'm by no means advocating 2+3, but the class 700's seats should certainly be wider and more spaced out).

Obviously there are valid complaints about the timekeeping of some of the 700s at the moment. Of course, it's not as if 319s and 377/387s are perfect all the time. Can anyone remember delays in the core before the 700 introduction? Pretty sure it happened!

Agreed. This is why I'm not particularly fond of the Thameslink concept. It's not just delays in the core, but delays picked up elsewhere too. I remember too many days sitting at King's Cross Thameslink waiting for what should have been an every-15-minutes service, and being there for half an hour or more. Naturally worse on something like Horsham-Peterborough which will be half-hourly.

 

[J-2739]

(I'm by no means advocating 2+3, but the class 700's seats should certainly be wider and more spaced out).

:roll: sigh...

If only we had everything:
At seat service
Seats equivalent to the sofa at home
Hand made tables
A wider loading gauge

Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

[physics34]

I'd likely choose an aisle seat in any case, but if I did take a window seat (and I have on a 700) then you can just sit as necessary to get comfortable - and the person next to you is more than likely going to shift over a bit to take advantage of the huge aisle space. I'm not exactly skinny, and I manage.

I don't think anyone can say they're going to be wedged. Anyone who has sat on a 3+2 train would know what wedged is.

Obviously there are valid complaints about the timekeeping of some of the 700s at the moment. Of course, it's not as if 319s and 377/387s are perfect all the time. Can anyone remember delays in the core before the 700 introduction? Pretty sure it happened!

the annoying thing is it is just over a couple of inches space needed between the seat and the coach side.. 4 inches in total. not very much, but enough to make a difference. Poor design basically.

 

[Bald Rick]

Judging my the considerable negative reaction to elements of the class 700 design/specification here and elsewhere, it's hardly just my own personal requirements.

But the only negative reaction that has been "considerable" has come from you and around three other posters. All the other posters who have tried the trains have taken a balanced view - generally positive with a few negative issues. And it is notable that there is not agreement about the negative issues - for every person who doesn't like the seats, there are those that find them perfectly satisfactory. There have been some posters who have found the trains very good - myself included - save for the current reliability issues. And we know that reliability is a common problem with new fleet introductions, and always has been (For example, when the 378s were introduced on LO, we were measuring fleet casualties per mile, not miles per casualty )

Then there is the silent majority (99.99%) who haven't posted because they don't read the forum. Everyone I have spoken to about the new trains - and I mean every single person of about 30 I have spoken to - thinks they are great. Most are people I know who commute on the line, or live on the GN and have reason to use TL. Indeed 3 of my friends on the GN (living at Cambridge, Royston and WGC) have said words to the effect of 'I wish we could have these trains on our line'. When I told them it's a matter of months away, they were pleasantly surprised. Some people I have spoken to I don't know, but I have heard them talking about the new train whilst on board, and I have joined in.

I have heard only 2 negative comments - one from somebody who didn't like the smell "as it smells like new carpets", and the other from an elderly lady who said there wasn't enough luggage space, which she said to her husband whilst she had her back to an empty luggage rack.

On the basis that you will never please all the people all the time, I think this is a pretty good result?

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, out of touch.

You said that I "buy a season to travel every day".

I then pointed out that this is not correct. For myself and many others. There are plenty of other reasons why a season ticket has benefits, even if for me it would probably be cheaper buying daily tickets.

Seeing as I mentioned that the product your talking about can be used every day seems to suggest either your not reading my posts or your mis-reading them. The product you have allows travel far beyond what you use it for. Its not the product faults you don't use it fully but that doesn't change the actually fact what it offers.

You still argue the point.

Its a forum where things are discussed/argued over. You realise this fact don't you? You haven't won nor bullied me in submission because you haven't been able to make a point that hasn't come across as selfishness.

You keep demonstrating that you are simply out of touch with customer needs and realities.

Frankly, this is the sort of rigid inflexibility and "I'm always right" attitude the industry could well do without.

That's your re-writting of my post and a claim your making. Not the truth. Accusing me of being I'm always right is just your personal attacks as you can't make a valid point with reasoned reasoning. A tactic your often using.

Judging my the considerable negative reaction to elements of the class 700 design/specification here and elsewhere, it's hardly just my own personal requirements. Myself and many others would see having to sit wedged up against a wall with their feet resting on a duct as "crappy travel", or standing for ages on a busy St Pancras International platform waiting for a train which has been delayed somewhere in Sussex and then misses out their stop in order to recover the time as "crappy travel".

Your own reaction is just that, yours. This thread has made it clear there is a spilt in opinions over the 700s. You realise I am a 700 commuter already right?

Your also confusing the 700s with regulation. Even if you had magic 365 through the Core as your own personal demands, missing stops is not down to the train (bar technical issues) but other effects. There is also the issue of the problems GN faces today at transferring to Sussex. But did that thought pass you by? Its worth noting the GN PPM wasn't massively different from Thameslink issues prior to the London Bridge workings exposing the latter to far more issues. Yes there are some issues that will require focus but it seems beyond you that what your seeing now is a partially complete railway going through massive changes but your trying to judge it on that basis. I don't see the well reasoned debate from yourself as your too personal in it all. It if its not your way then its crap or impossible.

The GN can't cope with the rising passenger numbers using methods you have repeatedly demand because it suits you. It seems beyond you that you can understand this significant point. However I hope you've been developing those ideas for the consultation.

 

[bramling]

This thread has made it clear there is a spilt in opinions over the 700s.

I'm genuinely pleased to obverse you're starting to see that!

Your also confusing the 700s with regulation.

I'm not "confusing" anything, I am fully are of what regulation is.

I'm fully aware that recovering the service would apply no matter what type of train was in use.

Which is why, as well as being not fond of the class 700, I'm equally not fond of the Thameslink concept. I think I've made this clear enough over time.

Even if you had magic 365 through the Core as your own personal demands, missing stops is not down to the train (bar technical issues) but other effects. There is also the issue of the problems GN faces today at transferring to Sussex. But did that thought pass you by?

Of course it stands to reason that delays transmit both ways. So another good reason why Thameslink is a bad thing for performance - as you say, all round, not just for Great Northern.

what your seeing now is a partially complete railway going through massive changes

If all parts of the railway were undergoing "massive changes" then perhaps it might stand a chance of working better. Reality is Thameslink trains will still be tangled up with other services in many locations, across all the areas served, with consequential negative effects on performance.

As you say, GN performance wasn't wonderful before. However, speaking from a user's perspective, I'd say that generally the service runs right time or close but with the potential for late running to massively develop when things start running out of path because of incidents.

Obviously incidents will always happen and we have to accept that, however I don't class something occurring in Sussex as something which should be readily accepted as a reason for delay north of the Thames. I can well forsee that a train arriving a few minutes late out of the core will have a massive negative effect on itself and/or other services competing to use the same tracks. Today the down service at least is generally right time leaving King's Cross, which has a massive positive effect on performance.

Likewise, were I trying to get from London to Horsham, I wouldn't be happy finding my train is late because it lost its path somewhere like Welwyn.

 

[DVD]

Afternoon all. Just thought I would add my impressions of the Class 700s having now done three trips. The first was London Bridge to East Croydon mid morning a few weeks ago. Trip two was St Pancras to Blackfriars earlier this week. Trip three was East Croydon to Blackfriars today (interesting route, a bridge strike at Tulse Hill led to diversion via Clapham Junction, then the South London Line, and the curve which bypasses Loughborough Junction, which I think is usually ECS only, I certainly hadn't used it before). Anyway no great revelations but here goes.

I quite new plasticish smells and will miss them when they fade.

Legroom : on two of my three trips (all off peak) I was lucky enough to grab a priority seat where the legroom seems fine, even for the long-legged (of which I am not). As for non-priority airline seats, yes legroom seems tight - although as a Class 465/466 commuter for 20 years, there's little difference. I appreciate that 700s will be in use on lengthy journeys, but so are the Networkers for those who choose to use them from Gillingham / Gravesend. I would have preferred an extra few inches, but I reckon most will get used to them in time.

Seat design. This is so subjective, but I find the pitch / back support fine. The seats are a bit hard on the bum, but you do get used to it. I found the 376s on the Dartford lines unbearably hard when they first came in the early 2000s. In comparison, the 700 seats are slightly better.

Toilets. Only used once but I was expecting a bit more space, it seemed cramped and the water didn't work.

PIS. Worked fine in trip 1, not working in my carriage in trip 2. fine today. As others have said, it does seem geared towards trips in the London core but it's an improvement on most passenger information I've seen. My service today was running 20 minutes later. I had expected the POS to mention but no sign.

I'm only an occasional Thameslink user and have some sympathy with the armrestlessness and lack of table complaints. But in comparison to 319s they are a massive improvement.

 

[43074]

:roll: sigh...

If only we had everything:
At seat service
Seats equivalent to the sofa at home
Hand made tables
A wider loading gauge

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don't think armrests and seat back tables at airline seats are too much to ask though... :roll:

 

[Class377/5]

I'm genuinely pleased to obverse you're starting to see that!

Finally something we agree on!

I'm not "confusing" anything, I am fully are of what regulation is.

I'm fully aware that recovering the service would apply no matter what type of train was in use.

Which is why, as well as being not fond of the class 700, I'm equally not fond of the Thameslink concept. I think I've made this clear enough over time.

Nice to see you know the two thing (regulation and trains) are two separate thing. Perhaps now you can keep to the topic under discussion in this thread and leave your feeling on Thameslink overall in the correct threads?

Of course it stands to reason that delays transmit both ways. So another good reason why Thameslink is a bad thing for performance - as you say, all round, not just for Great Northern.

Minor delays will be just that, minor. However for major incidents there are ways to ensure the robust service either side of the Core.

If all parts of the railway were undergoing "massive changes" then perhaps it might stand a chance of working better. Reality is Thameslink trains will still be tangled up with other services in many locations, across all the areas served, with consequential negative effects on performance.

Its all going under massive change. Note change doesn't just have to be infrastructure. How the Gn works is also about to change significantly.

As you say, GN performance wasn't wonderful before. However, speaking from a user's perspective, I'd say that generally the service runs right time or close but with the potential for late running to massively develop when things start running out of path because of incidents.

Obviously incidents will always happen and we have to accept that, however I don't class something occurring in Sussex as something which should be readily accepted as a reason for delay north of the Thames. I can well forsee that a train arriving a few minutes late out of the core will have a massive negative effect on itself and/or other services competing to use the same tracks. Today the down service at least is generally right time leaving King's Cross, which has a massive positive effect on performance.

Likewise, were I trying to get from London to Horsham, I wouldn't be happy finding my train is late because it lost its path somewhere like Welwyn.

And you miss the point of the TL. But that's keeping the off topic discussion going.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think armrests and seat back tables at airline seats are too much to ask though... :roll:

Try telling the DfT that?

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think armrests and seat back tables at airline seats are too much to ask though... :roll:

The list of commuter trains* to and within London that have these things in standard class is rather shorter than the list of trains that does not.

* defined as trains running on services supplied by TOCs in the LSE sector.

 

[Saint66]

Another ride on a 700 today, also saw quite a few out and about and also in Cricklewood. Again, seats were fine/comfortable for me and so was the leg room. Didn't even notice the lack of arm rests until it was just mentioned up thread!

Very spacey and the 12 carriages made the loadings much more spread out and everyone easily got a seat just before the evening rush. Noticeable was people spreading fully along the length of the platforms, making life much easier.

Oh, no door issues in the core, and everything seemed to be working just fine.

I'm happy with them so far!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the latest on numbers in service, being tested, awaiting delivery and being built?

 

[Class377/5]

What's the latest on numbers in service, being tested, awaiting delivery and being built?

24 in the UK,

9x 8 car 700/0 - 002-008/010/014
15x 12 car 700/1 - 101-115

9 units have been in service with another 2 close to service. Lots of 8 car testing going on at the moment. Note fault free running, driver training and new route testing are being done together as well.

700028 was the latest built unit at the 707 tour last month, with Siemens building a unit a week (10 coaches) there should be around 50 completed units and reported another 200 body shells (that could be nearly 17x 12 cars or 25x 8 cars or a mix of either) so the build is about 60% complete.

Next increase of diagrams has been set, just need to double check my diagrams are correct before posting them. So expect some news this week folks.

 

[387star]

If all goes as planned, they will stay with Southern

Thank goodness the low density '19' 377/1 stay with southern
Southeastern will do well with the ones which have some 3+2 in each coach

 

[Alteran Ancient]

24 in the UK,

9x 8 car 700/0 - 002-008/010/014
15x 12 car 700/1 - 101-115

9 units have been in service with another 2 close to service. Lots of 8 car testing going on at the moment. Note fault free running, driver training and new route testing are being done together as well.

That's a good improvement up from the mere 4 in service that we had not too long ago.

Thanks for the updates. Despite the impressions given by some people around here, there are a few of us who do appreciate your insights.

 

[D365]

Despite the impressions given by some people around here, there are a few of us who do appreciate your insights.

+1, all contributions are most definitely valued.

 

[SAPhil]

I'd say sitting in a window seat on a class 700 is comparable to being in the middle seat of three on a class 317 if there's someone next to you. In fact, worse, because being 2+2 there's a higher probability of someone sitting there compared to 2+3.

(I'm by no means advocating 2+3, but the class 700's seats should certainly be wider and more spaced out).

I agree with this. It's a big shame that the window seats are so compromised by the overall design. This is my main bugbear with these trains, personal space is important. I can live without plugs, wifi, tables - although seat back dropdown tables and/or small ledges for the non-airplane seats would be nice. Everything else about them seems ok although perhaps a bit underwhelming

 

[Class377/5]

That's a good improvement up from the mere 4 in service that we had not too long ago.

Thanks for the updates. Despite the impressions given by some people around here, there are a few of us who do appreciate your insights.

Think you may have mid understood me, its 9 units for 5 diagrams. Never been 4 diagrams bit 1 then 3, then 5 and soon more.

 

[southern442]

The list of commuter trains* to and within London that have these things in standard class is rather shorter than the list of trains that does not.

* defined as trains running on services supplied by TOCs in the LSE sector.

Shorter distance trains maybe, but if we have a look at longer distance/outer suburban train services (i.e. ones that go to further out places and skip stops etc):

SWT
I won't count the 159s because their journey runs outside of the LSE sector
45 x class 444 that do have tables and armrests
127 x class 450 that have seat back tables
I won't count the class 458s because they currently do not operate on outer suburban services
Total 172 outer suburban trains that do have tables and/or armrests, 0 that don't

SOUTHERN
20 x class 171 that have tables and armrests
173 x class 377 that have tables and/or armrests
27 x class 387 that have tables and armrests
6 x class 442 that have tables and armrests
I won't count the 377/6 or /7 units as they were built for inner suburban use.
Total 226 that do, 0 that don't

THAMESLINK
32 x class 377 that do have armrests and tables
29 x class 387 that do have armrests and tables

59 x class 319 that don't
I won't count the 700's as they are not fully in service yet and I won't count the 319/2's that do have armrests and tables as I don't know how many of them there are.
Total 61 that do, 59 that don't

SOUTHEASTERN
Only counting those listed below, others are either inner-suburban only or are high speed which I don't think should be used in comparison to outer-suburban services
34 x class 465/9 that don't
112 x class 375 that have armrests and/or tables
Total 112 that do, 34 that don't

C2C
74 x class 357 that don't
Note: in some units there is provision for first class which means there are tables in some areas but I won't count this
Total 0 that do, 74 that don't

ABELLIO GREATER ANGLIA
21 x class 317
94 x class 321
21 x class 360
25 x class 317 (1 class 317 still has stansted express interior and 317/6's have tables)
30 x class 379
Total 55 that do, 136 that don't

GREAT NORTHERN
40 x class 365
13 x class 321
12 x class 317
Total 40 that do, 25 that don't

LONDON MIDLAND
I'm going to count all of the 350's to make it easier for me. I also think that there may be 1 class 319 that has a 2+2 layout but I won't count this.
7 x class 319
37 class 350
40 class 350
Total 40 that do, 44 that don't

CHILTERN
I will count all fleet except class 121 and the intercity stock
24 x class 168
39 x class 165
4 x class 172
Total 24 that do, 43 that don't

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY
only counting turbo's
36 x class 165
21 x class 166
Total 21 that do, 36 that don't

GRAND TOTAL
639 WITH ARMRESTS AND/OR TABLES
451 WITHOUT

More outer suburban trains do have armrests and/or tables. So I don't think it's asking too much!

 

[Bald Rick]

Shorter distance trains maybe, but if we have a look at longer distance/outer suburban train services (i.e. ones that go to further out places and skip stops etc):

If I'd limited it to Outer Surburban services you'd have a point.

But I didn't. Try again including all London Commuter services as defined.

As an aside, many of the trains that do have armrests and/or tables only have them for some seats.

 

[southern442]

If I'd limited it to Outer Surburban services you'd have a point.

But I didn't. Try again including all London Commuter services as defined.

If the 700's were meant purely for inner suburban work, then of course armrests and tables would be asking too much. The only reason why people are upset is because the interiors are far below standard for outer suburban journeys. I don't think inner suburban trains should be included in the comparison as the class 700 interior would be fine for inner suburban journeys.

I have an idea, if the 12-car trains aren't going to be used on inner suburban services then fit them with armrests and tables and leave the 8-car ones. I know the 8-car ones will be doing some mainline services, but I wouldn't complain because the 8-car trains would also be doing metro services where a more comfortable layout isn't needed.

As an aside, many of the trains that do have armrests and/or tables only have them for some seats.

I only included trains that have tables throughout, others I discounted.

 

[Class377/5]

I only included trains that have tables throughout, others I discounted.

No you haven't. Not every seat on a 377 has a table (seat back or other wise) so there's 177 trains off your have list (three cars have nub so may or may not be counted). 375/9 as well so another 27 trains off your list. The 350/2 don't have tables at all seats so another 37 units out.

Add in another 36x 375, 57x 378 that are also part of the London Commuting services mean your list is now a very different thing. And that's without all the Underground stock that are part of those service group too.

It's not quite as simple as you make out. If there is only have tables at every seats or none then the list you presented is changed as units can be neither. You can't claim that units with majority of the class having tables can be counted in the have pile either.

A another case of how differently people view the same thing (not a attack on yourself btw).

 

[43074]

If the 700's were meant purely for inner suburban work, then of course armrests and tables would be asking too much. The only reason why people are upset is because the interiors are far below standard for outer suburban journeys. I don't think inner suburban trains should be included in the comparison as the class 700 interior would be fine for inner suburban journeys.

I have an idea, if the 12-car trains aren't going to be used on inner suburban services then fit them with armrests and tables and leave the 8-car ones. I know the 8-car ones will be doing some mainline services, but I wouldn't complain because the 8-car trains would also be doing metro services where a more comfortable layout isn't needed.

I only included trains that have tables throughout, others I discounted.

This is exactly the point I have been making, if the trains were being used exclusively on inner suburban services they would be absolutely great - plenty of standing room, fast door operation (when they work), fast acceleration etc - and I said that after I tried them, to the extent that I am even looking forward to trying the similar 707 and 717 units. The fact of the matter is they are not being used solely for this purpose, and they are less than adequate in their current form for the longer journeys. It's the railway trying a one size fits all approach when clearly it would be better to have (as a minimum) 2 differently configured fleets, if not 2 different fleets altogether, e.g. Desiro City for inners and Desiro Verve for outers.

It doesn't matter what outer suburban passengers have on other routes, on the proposed 700 routes a fair proportion of outer passengers are using 365s, 377s and 387s and these are the benchmark by which they will be compared. These all have seat back tables and/or armrests at a reasonable proportion of all available seats, so why shouldn't their replacements?

Add in another 36x 375, 57x 378 that are also part of the London Commuting services mean your list is now a very different thing. And that's without all the Underground stock that are part of those service group too.

The Underground is a completely different case to begin with, by it's very nature it is a Metro/inner suburban railway, the furthest point is only 25 miles from Central London... basically incomparable when 700s will be running 50/60 miles away from London. Even then you still get an armrest on most Underground & Overground stock anyway.