Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[class387]

I don't believe my question was answered from a while ago - what services will next have class 700's?

Should be Sutton Loop when the 8-cars enter service. Might be wrong though.

 

[asylumxl]

London Overground is close to break even. Bit of an exaggeration saying it requires a huge subsidy. From 2018 TfL's day to day operations across all modes will need to operate commercially as there will be no subsidy

I imagine that the investment in LO has also meant that overall it required subsidies.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I imagine that the investment in LO has also meant that overall it required subsidies.

One of the biggest drivers of LO growth was simply putting it on the tube map - without that, many people wouldn't have known about it!

 

[Class377/5]

I don't believe my question was answered from a while ago - what services will next have class 700's?

Sutton next followed by Sevenoaks and then the GN.

I don't see how one can reliably arrive at any figure for what a season ticketholder actually pays relative to those buying daily tickets, as any such figure makes an assumption as to how many days the season ticket actually gets used, and at what times.

Not everyone travels Mon-Fri peak times.

For example, I tend to travel around 1300, returning around 2100. This may also include weekends, except that with GTR's recent shambolic delivery I can't remember the last time I chanced not going by car on a weekend. I'm also off 3 weeks out of every 11, and have over 60 annual leave days. However on the plus side I do sometimes use the season ticket for leisure or local travel.

All this will of course come to an abrupt end in November when it runs out. I'm tired of GTR and the prospect of Thameslink and its unreliability and inferior trains. Car wins the day. I know another doing likewise. So two empty seats on an off-peak class 700.

Quite easy, the annual card allow x amount or return trips. Whether or not they are used is irrelevant as you buy a season to travel every day.

London Overground is close to break even. Bit of an exaggeration saying it requires a huge subsidy. From 2018 TfL's day to day operations across all modes will need to operate commercially as there will be no subsidy

Actually this is completely false information. Try trying for a few minutes and you discover your error.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/business-plan

According to this report

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tfl-budget-2016-17-and-business-plan.pdf

The budget for London Rail 2015/16 is

Fares income £472m
Other income £26m
Operating expenditure -£557m
Net capital expenditure -£294m

Net investment spend -£354m

So London Rail generates £498m of income but requires £557m to run. That means there's a short fall of £59m PER year. So those profits really are fantasy people. I believe the figure is 50p per person per journey sub.

Compare this to Thameslink where 2015-2021 generates enough to pay back the whole TLP project.

 

[asylumxl]

The question is, will it have the same investment spend in coming years. The LO network has seen significant improvement work and I imagine coming years the spending will drop.

 

[Class377/5]

The question is, will it have the same investment spend in coming years. The LO network has seen significant improvement work and I imagine coming years the spending will drop.

The investment costs are separate above so don't affect the current £59m shortfall a year.

 

[jon0844]

Managed to get a 700 again today, unintentionally, as it was some 30 minutes late due to a fault.

But the doors opened fine at St Pancras and Farringdon!

https://youtu.be/WTf7vtK_sl4

 

[samuelmorris]

One of the biggest drivers of LO growth was simply putting it on the tube map - without that, many people wouldn't have known about it!

The North London line (white) and East London Lines (orange), arguably where the growth has been among the most extreme, were both on the tube map before!

it's easy to see why that subsidy issue occurs - regularly if I use the ELL part of the Overground it's one of multiple trains on the same journey costing £2 to £5 on an oyster card, Thameslink journeys in many cases cost double figures.

 

[Deepgreen]

Given declassification is done via the screens, it actually makes sense to have first at both ends - so you can then have some consistency, assuming you choose to always have it at the front or rear of the train - and advertise that fact on the platform screens.

People who have first class tickets can at least always know where to stand, rather than on the 377s where it's a bit hit and miss (or you have to hope the screens say).

BUT the screens will need to possibly be modified so there's a permanent notice of the fact, or at least when the train is stopped at a station. But, what about when an RPI wants to give you a ticket and the screens have gone blank just moments before as the train went through a neutral section...?!

What an amusingly old-fashioned concept! I have never seen an RPI on TL and, after a very brief spell when they were about again on Southern a few months ago, they've all gone too. Conductors' morale is so low that they almost never check these days, and when they are effectively forced to become OBSs, their morale will hardly climb much, so are unlikely to be minded to check tickets, let alone enforce first class.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Compare this to Thameslink where 2015-2021 generates enough to pay back the whole TLP project.

That's interesting, is this information publicly available?

 

[J-2739]

Managed to get a 700 again today, unintentionally, as it was some 30 minutes late due to a fault.

But the doors opened fine at St Pancras and Farringdon!

https://youtu.be/WTf7vtK_sl4

Those doors are FAST, I like them!
Shame about the delay, hope everyone made it to their destination safely.
Looking forwards to seeing this machine at full acceleration and deceleration, anyone know what it is.

 

[Envy123]

One of the biggest drivers of LO growth was simply putting it on the tube map - without that, many people wouldn't have known about it!

True - hardly anyone I know is aware of the GN line and that it's possible to go from Finsbury Park to Moorgate direct.

But all of that will change if the GN locals become part of LO.

 

[Deepgreen]

Slightly off topic, but, what about the Gatwick Express class 387's? Absolutely no difference between first and standard class, yet it's a whole lot more expensive. On GatEx, most trains you are pretty much guaranteed a seat anyway that argument doesn't work.

What's more, a high proportion of Gatwick passengers seem not to know or care whether they are in first class anyway, judging by my experiences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is completely unacceptable. Siemens should not be putting trains into service before they are ready. How dare they not foresee the problem of avian fowling of the pan well. A specialist bird of prey test rig should have been set up at Sandy in cooperation with the RSPB to derisk such issues. On this basis it is a safe bet they have not planned for swans nesting on the line, fox hunts shorting the third rail with their beagles and the surge of passengers going out to celebrate when England win a major football tournament. This would have never have happened when we had National Service.

They should really concentrate on quantifiable risks!

 

[physics34]

Sutton next followed by Sevenoaks and then the GN.

Any dates mate?

 

[Class377/5]

That's interesting, is this information publicly available?

All the material on the DfT website around the award has disappeared. Hmmmmm.

True - hardly anyone I know is aware of the GN line and that it's possible to go from Finsbury Park to Moorgate direct.

But all of that will change if the GN locals become part of LO.

What is the point of moving GN Moorgate services to LO? Either you have to duplicate roles as a micro TOC or add it to the some other part of LO meaning the same issues as if it stays with TL services when they are hived off from Southern/GatEx services next decade.

Any dates mate?

Yes and no. Currently my info isn't quite right due to changes so cannot say yes this date. However 8 cars are coming.

 

[Bald Rick]

My 700 today:

Departed on time
Had working aircon
Had working PIS
Seats were comfortable
Arrived on time at Blackfriars to the second.

 

[neilm]

My 700 today:

Departed on time
Had working aircon
Had working PIS
Seats were comfortable
Arrived on time at Blackfriars to the second.

My 700 never made it to LBG (18:42) second time this week. Seems to be due 0 recovery in the timetable and the track defect? At balcombe, for 4 days...

 

[bramling]

Quite easy, the annual card allow x amount or return trips. Whether or not they are used is irrelevant as you buy a season to travel every day.

Complete nonsense. The main reason I have a season is to avoid having to spend time messing about at the ticket office each day.

Another example of how out of touch with reality you are.

(Meanwhile, as an aside, funny isn't it. Took a down journey out of KX in tonight's evening peak. 2x365, seats to spare. Went from the main trainshed, so no technical reason why couldn't have been 3x365. That's 50% growth catered for going forward before we even think about standing. This is same loading as I have observed on this service throughout the year. And it got to my destination on time, didn't have to sit with my foot on a ledge, had a table, and the doors opened promptly.)

 

[westcoaster]

All the material on the DfT website around the award has disappeared. Hmmmmm.



What is the point of moving GN Moorgate services to LO? Either you have to duplicate roles as a micro TOC or add it to the some other part of LO meaning the same issues as if it stays with TL services when they are hived off from Southern/GatEx services next decade.



Yes and no. Currently my info isn't quite right due to changes so cannot say yes this date. However 8 cars are coming.

Could we see the 8 cars come in on the three bridges runs first.

 

[Bishopstone]

Had a quick spin today on the 15.35 Gatwick-Brighton, formed of 700 102. This departed Bedford almost on time, but appeared to lose about 15 minutes at East Croydon, with some talk of door problems.

At Haywards Heath we were bluntly advised 'the stopping pattern of this service has been altered', with Wivelsfield-Preston Park inclusive all binned. Cutting out this group of stations has been a common phenomenon on Thameslink for many years, going back (at least) to FCC days, and I suspect will happen even more frequently as pressure grows to present trains through the core on the timetabled basis. I hope the commuters of Sandy and Baldock (etc) are made of strong stuff!

Anyway, onto the train:

- the PA was crystal clear in audio quality.

- looked robust, and well screwed together.

- the ability to look through, and walk through, the length of the interior is a big plus. I find this feature has transformed the quality of travel on the Underground sub-surface lines. Musn't forget the security/personal safety benefits, either.

- I'm 6'4" and a beanpole. The legroom is tight, but I've had plenty worse on UK rolling stock, and don't get me started on buses. Anyone less than 6' criticising the legroom must be a moaning minnie, and should try standing (or sitting) in my shoes, on a Dennis Dart. I would, of course, take an aisle seat on a 700 by preference, to spread a bit.

- the Standard seats work well for me, in terms of supporting a decent posture. Short and wide folk may have a different opinion. The trunking underneath the window seats will spoil things, forcing a twist in the hips that wouldn't do you good, if repeated over months/years. Another reason to choose an aisle seat.

- great turn of acceleration, eg exiting the TSR to the south of Balcombe tunnel, back up to line speed. Quiet, too. I bet they really fly on AC, on the Midland Mainline.

- the visual PIS wasn't working. Prediction: this will never work properly, and will become the railway equivalent of the talking dashboard on the 1983 MG Maestro. It will be replaced by something much simpler (eg destination of train and next station), and nobody will care.

- the audio PIS had no idea about the cancelled stops, and kept announcing Burgess Hill (etc) as we raced through at 70mph. Maybe the driver didn't bother changing this, or maybe the system is just a devil to re-programme once set, and he wisely decided not to meddle.

- whilst spartan, First Class is definitely a cut above Standard. The seats are particularly comfortable (for me), and I used the plug socket on account of 9% phone battery and no power bank, which will get the assorted industry illuminati here tutting.

- however, with the rear compartment (I confirmed) permanently declassified, there is no need to pay the premium, off peak, given most 'normals' won't understand about declassification and will steer clear, for fear of a Penalty Fare. I can see how this situation has come about, but GTR have just undermined a potentially profitable and expandable - albeit small - leisure First market. When the full fleet is introduced, I wonder whether the auto-declassification might be made a Monday-Friday only thing, so you have to pay to get the benefits at the weekend.

- talking of weekends, the 12-car railway will be a welcome novelty.

- enough has been said about Standard tables already, so I will just reiterate my view they should have them, pronto. Not bothered about WiFi, which is almost universally useless on the railway.

- I agree with Roger Ford (Modern Railways - August). The 700s will be very popular with the folk of Sutton, St Albans and Orpington (etc). Further out, there will be some moaning, which will get louder with distance from London.

- Decent trains though they are, if I were going from Brighton to Cambridge, would I travel with Thameslink on a 700.... or GatEx 387 to Victoria, Tube, then another 387 on the Cruiser from Kings Cross? Not sure!

 

[AM9]

Complete nonsense. The main reason I have a season is to avoid having to spend time messing about at the ticket office each day.

Another example of how out of touch with reality you are.

(Meanwhile, as an aside, funny isn't it. Took a down journey out of KX in tonight's evening peak. 2x365, seats to spare. Went from the main trainshed, so no technical reason why couldn't have been 3x365. That's 50% growth catered for going forward before we even think about standing. This is same loading as I have observed on this service throughout the year. And it got to my destination on time, didn't have to sit with my foot on a ledge, had a table, and the doors opened promptly.)

That's the situation in mid-August 2016 with many passengers on holiday. If passenger level predictions are correct, there will be a marked increase by the time the TL programme is complete in 2019. By 2030, the levels should have completely transcended the total capacity of the current services with conventional stock including extending trains to 12-car wherever possible.

 

[Hadders]

The increase in Off Peak trains is welcome but how many additional peak trains will there be?

I suspect the answer is very few, although we could increase the length of the existing ones.

I have my suspicions that many of the peak 317/321/365 trains on the GN side will end up being replaced by 8-car 700s, providing no meaningful increase in capacity.

 

[ainsworth74]

What are the weekend diagrams like at the moment or are they variable?

 

[Domh245]

What are the weekend diagrams like at the moment or are they variable?

What weekend diagrams? There was a one off for Brighton pride and nought else so far

 

[Bald Rick]

and I used the plug socket on account of 9% phone battery and no power bank, which will get the assorted industry illuminati here tutting.

Tut.


Agreed about the seats. I'm 6'4 too, and there's more legroom in the standard airline seats than on the 319 airline seats, some 377 airline seats, most commuter DMU airline seats, and for that matter, all airline airline seats (at least, those that I have been on for the last 10 years).

Also agreed about first class. I can't understand why it is included on the 8 car trains. And on the 12 car, I think it is a perfect opportunity to offer a Thameslink only first class fare for season ticket holders, say 25% higher than standard. There's a lot of people in St Albans, Harpenden, Redhill, Haywards Heath etc who would be willing to pay an extra, say, £1.50 per single trip equivalent for a bigger, better seat, a much better chance of a seat, a table and (dare I say it) a socket. Chuck in a free bacon sandwich on a Friday morning and it's a winner. It would need proper policing though.

 

[jon0844]

The late and rather busy 700 I unexpectedly got today had quite a few seats, but still people choosing to stand. I noticed a few people standing in first class, and because the key info goes off in the core, I never found out if the Brighton end was declassified. Nor can you see how busy the train is as a whole. Does anyone know when the trains will begin to show information in the core?

A lot of people boarding at St Pancras walked through into first class and sat down too - all having to walk through a clearly marked door (funny seeing some people not sure whether to push or pull, and somehow not trying either because it's spring loaded and needs a little force!). Clearly I cannot possibly know who had first class tickets, but my gut says that few if any did.

I don't know if they know it's declassified or have just got used to upgrading given the lack of revenue checks on TL these days.

 

[J-2739]

(This is a question mainly for Class 377/5 but others can chime in also )

What is the max acceleration of these things? I've just seen a video on the 700's pull out the station pretty fast. Will it be 2km/h/s or would it go dangerous (3km/h/s? Sorry, I use the metric system).

Also, what's the deceleration?

 

[D365]

Will it be 2km/h or would it go dangerous (3km/h, sorry, I use the metric system).

2km/h? That's not even walking pace

The typical unit is ms^-2 with a ballpark figure for the acceleration of a modern EMU being 0.75ms^-2.

 

[J-2739]

2km/h? That's not even walking pace

The typical unit is ms^-2 with a ballpark figure for the acceleration of a modern EMU being 0.75ms^-2.

Oops, I missed out the '/s'. Will edit it in!

 

[Alteran Ancient]

My spies at Bromley South have informed me that they've started seeing 700s come through in the evening, empty, presumably on testing and/or training for the Sevenoaks - Kentish Town/Bedford routes. Not sure whether they're confusing them for the 387s, but those are already in service (however limited) down here.

On a somewhat unrelated note, it was only a few years ago that I remember Southern testing the 377/6s, running them empty through BMS to do loops around Kent for mileage runs. I found this most amusing, given that they weren't even going to be used in passenger service on those lines!

Thankfully, this isn't the case for the 700s - they will be running down here eventually, and I'll be somewhat glad to see the back of the 319s. Unless, of course, the rumours are true and Southeastern do requisition those 319s for the VIC-ORP routes so the 465s can bolster the Dartford services.

Again, just theory until it's proven.