Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jon0844]

I thought the seats on the 700 were okay when I tried them at the preview event at ExCeL, but obviously that wasn't the same as being on one for an hour or two.

Perhaps if there's just one passenger a day from Horsham to Luton, he or she can ride up with the driver? They always have comfortable seats (!).

 

[physics34]

Well maybe if comfort is more important than time to you, it would be better to get to London by trains that you know are all right, then use EMT meridians to get to Luton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How would memory foam work. It's expensive anyway and is designed for long periods of same shapes. Maybe you could take your own cushion with you.

Why can't you have both?!

 

[TEW]

I don't think the seats in the 700s are that bad. Better than the 2+3 seated section of the 377s, but not as good as the 2+2 seated sections. Better than most 319s but worse than the 319/2s. I do think the interior could do with some tweaks though. When I first walked in the demonstrator it felt like S Stock, not like an outer-suburban mainline trains. It's hard to balance the need to crush load people in the core and the need to take people in reasonable comfort for some of the longer journeys. I believe seat back tables were mentioned elsewhere as something being considered, that would certainly be an improvement.

 

[jon0844]

I hope seat back tables are being considered. I certainly mentioned it, along with many others, but have no idea if they'll listen.

I do think that having somewhere to store/hold a drink or perch your tablet/smartphone is as essential, if not more so, than a nice comfortable seat. Of course, ideally you want both.

 

[Bayum]

Still no videos??

 

[Geeves]

They are sending one to Innotrans 2014 (or at least a few bits of one). I guess some photos will appear of the real deal unfortunately still not moving.

 

[Fincra5]

One can imagine a lot of "I paid for a seat" statements to the poor soul who has to check tickets on this train... 12 car 377 has a lot more seats I'd imagine.

 

[Minstral25]

I went to see the 700 mock up and seat comfort wasn't my issue - they are a bit hard but I have a comfortable chair in my office and at home, I don't expect that on my train to work.

Major concern to me is that for my current 40 minute +delays commute I work at the seat I get. The space around the 700 seat is too cramped to get a laptop out, and even if you do there is no table to work on.

I'm also 6'3" tall so suffer from restricted leg room. I couldn't get my legs into the mock ups seats without leaving them at an angle which takes space from my neighbour due to simple lack a legroom.

Worse the seat is narrower than me so that my shoulders will be slightly over the neighbours seat.

I tested this with an FCC manager when at Excel and we could not comfortably sit next to each other (Worse was when we tried the facing seats and my knee was almost in his crotch). It is definite one would be unable to work which about a 1/4 of passengers do each day on my commute.

If I was able to suggest a redesign, I'd cut a row in each area to allow more leg room, add a tray table and make them 3 inches wider (preferably with arm rests - let's be fair even tube trains, 378's etc - pure metro stick have arm rests).

Interestingly the Passenger Focus survey said that almost all passengers want tray tables and arm rests on these routes as part of the pre-ordering survey so why did Seimans and the DfT totally ignore there own survey?

I'm sure these trains will be great but they will mean less opportunity to work for hard pressed commuters on longer commutes. That is the true fault of putting metro interiors in a longer distance train

I think many passengers would be happy if they took out a row and created

 

[fgwrich]

I went to see the 700 mock up and seat comfort wasn't my issue - they are a bit hard but I have a comfortable chair in my office and at home, I don't expect that on my train to work.

Major concern to me is that for my current 40 minute +delays commute I work at the seat I get. The space around the 700 seat is too cramped to get a laptop out, and even if you do there is no table to work on.

I'm also 6'3" tall so suffer from restricted leg room. I couldn't get my legs into the mock ups seats without leaving them at an angle which takes space from my neighbour due to simple lack a legroom.

Worse the seat is narrower than me so that my shoulders will be slightly over the neighbours seat.

I tested this with an FCC manager when at Excel and we could not comfortably sit next to each other (Worse was when we tried the facing seats and my knee was almost in his crotch). It is definite one would be unable to work which about a 1/4 of passengers do each day on my commute.

If I was able to suggest a redesign, I'd cut a row in each area to allow more leg room, add a tray table and make them 3 inches wider (preferably with arm rests - let's be fair even tube trains, 378's etc - pure metro stick have arm rests).

Interestingly the Passenger Focus survey said that almost all passengers want tray tables and arm rests on these routes as part of the pre-ordering survey so why did Seimans and the DfT totally ignore there own survey?

I'm sure these trains will be great but they will mean less opportunity to work for hard pressed commuters on longer commutes. That is the true fault of putting metro interiors in a longer distance train

I think many passengers would be happy if they took out a row and created

I wouldn't say it was Siemens ignoring the survey results as more of the DfT who are as we know, sadly speccing these units. I don't have much of an issue with the seat comfort too - having experience the same for the first time on the 377/6s last night but the shape of the top of them, for me and with the rolling motion over paintwork, I found my head almost constantly rolling to the side of these because they narrow at the top - small niggle I know, but if you combine that with the cramped spacing, no armrests etc then it does let what should be good train down!

 

[Class377/5]

Siemens has released some new images of the units on test as part of its announcement that the first Class 700 completed carriages will be shown off to the world at InnoTrans 2014.

http://www.siemens.com/press/en/events/2014/infrastructure-cities/2014-09-innotrans.php?content

Desiro City trains for the Thameslink route in London

World premiere: At this year's Innotrans, Siemens will unveil for the first time three completely assembled cars for the new Desiro City train for the Thameslink project. A mockup of this new Desiro train was already presented to the public in London in January of this year. These new Class 700 electric multiple units offer passengers a higher degree of comfort and the operator much more flexibility. They will improve the capacity and reliability of transport on one of the busiest line sections in Europe.

Images are as follows


700101 on test track by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

First shot of Unit 2


700102 on test track by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

And FC seating


First class in a Class 700 by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they be automatically cleared for any route that uses 350, 380s and 450s or would any potential route a Desiro City is intended need clearing?

 

[Monty]

Is it me or is the body profile more like the earlier 350/450 class of Desiro? In earlier mockups and artists impressions the coaches seemed to suggest the units would have a tapered effect much like Scotrail's Class 380s.

 

[Class377/5]

Will they be automatically cleared for any route that uses 350, 380s and 450s or would any potential route a Desiro City is intended need clearing?

They won't be automatically cleared. For a start the 380 are a 23m variant so have a different profile.

Is it me or is the body profile more like the earlier 350/450 class of Desiro? In earlier mockups and artists impressions the coaches seemed to suggest the units would have a tapered effect much like Scotrail's Class 380s.

Mock up showed that they don't taper as much as the impressions.

Mock Up Exterior by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[Monty]

I wonder what made them go with a more conventional body profile? Ease of construction?

 

[edwin_m]

Is this simply that the 700s are roughly to the classic 20m body profile like 319s etc and the 380s to the classic 23m (Mk3 coach) body profile with tapered ends?

 

[AM9]

Is this simply that the 700s are roughly to the classic 20m body profile like 319s etc and the 380s to the classic 23m (Mk3 coach) body profile with tapered ends?

Well the Thameslink route is not particularly generous in its gauge so they have to be designed to fit. At least (like the 319s) they will fit almost anywhere when it is time to cascade them.

 

[southern442]

I wouldn't say it was Siemens ignoring the survey results as more of the DfT who are as we know, sadly speccing these units. I don't have much of an issue with the seat comfort too - having experience the same for the first time on the 377/6s last night but the shape of the top of them, for me and with the rolling motion over paintwork, I found my head almost constantly rolling to the side of these because they narrow at the top - small niggle I know, but if you combine that with the cramped spacing, no armrests etc then it does let what should be good train down!

It's such a shame that nearly everyone wanted tables yet nothing has been done as a result of the survey. It's a shame that such a good-looking unit (as can be seen by Class 377/5's photos) is ruined by a rubbish interior.

 

[physics34]

It's such a shame that nearly everyone wanted tables yet nothing has been done as a result of the survey. It's a shame that such a good-looking unit (as can be seen by Class 377/5's photos) is ruined by a rubbish interior.

They are bigging up the units by saying they are 'spacious'!

How does having alot of standing space and cramped thin narrow uncomfortable seats benefit the passengers?

I still think they are mid-distance units not metro units (many journeys will be 1hr plus, or two hours if you count the Littlehampton Thameslink services) so i don't understand this oversight.

East Grinstead to London Bridge commuters currently have a relatively comfy 377/3 seat (with armrest) in 2x2 layout with a (mini)table, which in 2018 will be a class 700.

I know im like a broken record but to have these not very comfy seats and having to shuffle your bum around every 15 mins so you dont get 'numb bum' seems a real disappointment.

The first class layout of the 700s looks quite good but IMO this should be the spec for the whole train, tables etc etc

 

[southern442]

They are bigging up the units by saying they are 'spacious'!

How does having alot of standing space and cramped thin narrow uncomfortable seats benefit the passengers?

I still think they are mid-distance units not metro units (many journeys will be 1hr plus, or two hours if you count the Littlehampton Thameslink services) so i don't understand this oversight.

East Grinstead to London Bridge commuters currently have a relatively comfy 377/3 seat (with armrest) in 2x2 layout with a (mini)table, which in 2018 will be a class 700.

I know im like a broken record but to have these not very comfy seats and having to shuffle your bum around every 15 mins so you dont get 'numb bum' seems a real disappointment.

The first class layout of the 700s looks quite good but IMO this should be the spec for the whole train, tables etc etc

They should do away with first class completely IMO.

 

[physics34]

They should do away with first class completely IMO.

agree,but it makes the TOCs a nice wedge of cash.

 

[DJL]

They are bigging up the units by saying they are 'spacious'!

How does having alot of standing space and cramped thin narrow uncomfortable seats benefit the passengers?

I still think they are mid-distance units not metro units (many journeys will be 1hr plus, or two hours if you count the Littlehampton Thameslink services) so i don't understand this oversight.

East Grinstead to London Bridge commuters currently have a relatively comfy 377/3 seat (with armrest) in 2x2 layout with a (mini)table, which in 2018 will be a class 700.

I know im like a broken record but to have these not very comfy seats and having to shuffle your bum around every 15 mins so you dont get 'numb bum' seems a real disappointment.

The first class layout of the 700s looks quite good but IMO this should be the spec for the whole train, tables etc etc

I thought the seats in the STD portion of the 700 mockup were rather more comfortable than those on the 377 I use currently.

 

[physics34]

I thought the seats in the STD portion of the 700 mockup were rather more comfortable than those on the 377 I use currently.

probably are compared to the 3x2 seating and the 377/6 seating.

 

[Class377/5]

Well the Thameslink route is not particularly generous in its gauge so they have to be designed to fit. At least (like the 319s) they will fit almost anywhere when it is time to cascade them.

The 700s are a big bigger than the 319s and 377s to fit the maximum size Thameslink allows.

It's such a shame that nearly everyone wanted tables yet nothing has been done as a result of the survey. It's a shame that such a good-looking unit (as can be seen by Class 377/5's photos) is ruined by a rubbish interior.

What survey?

They are bigging up the units by saying they are 'spacious'!

How does having alot of standing space and cramped thin narrow uncomfortable seats benefit the passengers?

I still think they are mid-distance units not metro units (many journeys will be 1hr plus, or two hours if you count the Littlehampton Thameslink services) so i don't understand this oversight.

East Grinstead to London Bridge commuters currently have a relatively comfy 377/3 seat (with armrest) in 2x2 layout with a (mini)table, which in 2018 will be a class 700.

I know im like a broken record but to have these not very comfy seats and having to shuffle your bum around every 15 mins so you dont get 'numb bum' seems a real disappointment.

The first class layout of the 700s looks quite good but IMO this should be the spec for the whole train, tables etc etc

They are far more comfortable than a 377. If the first class layout was repeated through the train they would have failed the DfT's weight targets.

 

[jon0844]

From the mock up at ExCeL, there wasn't a specific survey to say what you thought about the train layout etc, but I did email my feedback which was basically that the train was great - bar the lack of seat back tables. On even a relatively short trip, I'd like somewhere to put a coffee cup. Not too much to ask for really. Besides that, I think the trains are pretty much spot on perfect.

 

[Class377/5]

From the mock up at ExCeL, there wasn't a specific survey to say what you thought about the train layout etc, but I did email my feedback which was basically that the train was great - bar the lack of seat back tables. On even a relatively short trip, I'd like somewhere to put a coffee cup. Not too much to ask for really. Besides that, I think the trains are pretty much spot on perfect.

The ExCeL was for feedback but it would never had made any different as the deal was sign and construction started some six months earlier.

Seat back tables weren't included due to modeling showing the 1,000 people on/off couldn't be achieved with them.

 

[AM9]

They are bigging up the units by saying they are 'spacious'!

How does having alot of standing space and cramped thin narrow uncomfortable seats benefit the passengers?

It allows passengers to get on a heavily loaded train instead of being left on the platform.

I still think they are mid-distance units not metro units (many journeys will be 1hr plus, or two hours if you count the Littlehampton Thameslink services) so i don't understand this oversight.

There will be up to forty eight trains per hour running through the core in the evening peak with two running between Littlehampton and Bedford and another two running the other way between West Hampstead and Littlehampton. The opposite will happen in the morning peak. So they represent on twelfth of the train movements, and of course only a small portion of the passengers on them will be starting from Littlehampton. The trains are designed for the majority of the journey types, not the few.

East Grinstead to London Bridge commuters currently have a relatively comfy 377/3 seat (with armrest) in 2x2 layout with a (mini)table, which in 2018 will be a class 700.

I know im like a broken record but to have these not very comfy seats and having to shuffle your bum around every 15 mins so you dont get 'numb bum' seems a real disappointment.

The service is a high-density double ended outer suburban type with a metro content either side of the core. The trains are designed for that type of service against severe Dft requirements of very short dwells and optimum power to weight ratios. Just because current Littlehampton services use a 20 year old Electrostar design rain type, it doesn't mean that all future trains will be the same or more luxurious. The 700s are the future in terms of measures to increase traffic through limited infrastructure. Get used to it.

The first class layout of the 700s looks quite good but IMO this should be the spec for the whole train, tables etc etc

You can use first class if you want to.

 

[Minstral25]

The ExCeL was for feedback but it would never had made any different as the deal was sign and construction started some six months earlier.

Seat back tables weren't included due to modeling showing the 1,000 people on/off couldn't be achieved with them.

The survey was done by Passenger Focus prior to DfT specification asking what was wanted on the units. Key points requested was more seats, arm rests and tables. I had a link a while back and will look for again but totally ignored in the Specification so wasted really.

If the trains couldn't have seat tables and arm rests in the tunnel section then they should have been confined to short high density metro routes and not sent on long distance services to Brighton, Peterborough and Cambridge or even middle distance services like St Albans, East Grinstead, Tattenham and Horsham.

Many commuters on these train use the commute as an extension of work time, but the tight cramped seats on these trains means you won't be able to get your PC out or do any work.

I had the pleasure of travelling from West Brompton to East Croydon tonight on the latest 377/7 (my first time on one) and yes the seat was a bit hard but the space was OK for working at the table, I got quite a bit done and didn't have to cuddle up to the large guy next to me - we had enough space to keep apart.

First time I've not changed at Clapham and I was very surprised to see that the busiest station for getting off was Norbury not Balham as I had expected.

 

[Class377/5]

The survey was done by Passenger Focus prior to DfT specification asking what was wanted on the units. Key points requested was more seats, arm rests and tables. I had a link a while back and will look for again but totally ignored in the Specification so wasted really.

If the trains couldn't have seat tables and arm rests in the tunnel section then they should have been confined to short high density metro routes and not sent on long distance services to Brighton, Peterborough and Cambridge or even middle distance services like St Albans, East Grinstead, Tattenham and Horsham.

Many commuters on these train use the commute as an extension of work time, but the tight cramped seats on these trains means you won't be able to get your PC out or do any work.

I had the pleasure of travelling from West Brompton to East Croydon tonight on the latest 377/7 (my first time on one) and yes the seat was a bit hard but the space was OK for working at the table, I got quite a bit done and didn't have to cuddle up to the large guy next to me - we had enough space to keep apart.

First time I've not changed at Clapham and I was very surprised to see that the busiest station for getting off was Norbury not Balham as I had expected.

Ah thanks for telling me that. The basic problem was the DfT weight spec which meant things like arm rest, plug sockets etc actually come into play as they become the difference of meeting the spec and failing to do so. With such a large order at risk, would any business risk it?

Personally as a user of Thameslink every day, the amount of people using the time on the train for work is a small fraction of the total numbers. And for the record I've actually worked on a train before and found only the tables suitable.

I really hate the 377/6 & /7 as they are painfully hard after even 20mins. I can't concerate on anything while riding them but a 700 seating is much better and far more comfortable.

 

[Yabbadabba]

No arm rests, no seat back tables, no power sockets and hard two by two seats, im mighty glad that the Eastbourne line was dropped from the Thameslink plans, at least i can still travel to work in reasonable comfort.

 

[Minstral25]

Ah thanks for telling me that. The basic problem was the DfT weight spec which meant things like arm rest, plug sockets etc actually come into play as they become the difference of meeting the spec and failing to do so. With such a large order at risk, would any business risk it?

Personally as a user of Thameslink every day, the amount of people using the time on the train for work is a small fraction of the total numbers. And for the record I've actually worked on a train before and found only the tables suitable.

I really hate the 377/6 & /7 as they are painfully hard after even 20mins. I can't concerate on anything while riding them but a 700 seating is much better and far more comfortable.

Yes I believe the DfT are at fault here, not really thinking through properly the effect of their demands.

I went to Excel and have a real aversion to the Class 700 seats, at 6'2" I'm a well too big for them so cover more than one seat and my legs did not fit in the leg room forcing me to sit with legs spread or across two seats. Many commuters are about my size

I think the DfT need an urgent rethink of their specification to suit passengers who will use the trains not a metro railway which won't have a lot of central zone only use.

Also I dislike the 319's which also have this style of seat with no armrests or tray tables as I am forced to get too comfy with the guy next to me. At least the 319's have leg room so I have somewhere to put my bags and legs. I can't work on these so don't try - I expect if you are travelling on Thameslink on these that is why you see few people working. My morning train from Redhill to Victoria often sees people working - 1 or 2 at most tables.

The 377/7 seats seem a good compromise to me - not that comfy but allow the space you need