Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[asylumxl]

Plug doors would, however, almost certainly be slower, which is why they were not chosen - dwell times must be reduced as far as possible. In fact, the new doors on the Desiro City were originally so quick to open that engineers have had to slow them down, in order to avoid them rebounding/bouncing!

Because the DfT thinks people only use TL in the core, when in reality it's the other way round.
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Whatever's said about the seating, I actually found the outside noise level on the 378s very acceptable with the open gangways and sliding doors. Admittedly that's at a far lower speed, but if the bigger EMUs are anything to go by, if Bombardier can do it around 50mph, Siemens can probably still do it at 100mph... The only thing I'm a little concerned by is whether there would be any noticeable banging when two units pass each other at full speed. Sliding doors aren't so good for that.

The noise internally at 50mph will be quite different to 100mph. On top of that they will have trains passing at 125mph on parts of TL North, so quite a different kettle of fish.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because the DfT thinks people only use TL in the core, when in reality it's the other way round.

Is suggest that upwards of 90% of passengers on TL trains will be using at least one core station (incl London Bridge) in their journey, and short dwell times are crucial to the delivery of 24 tph through the core. Every second counts. Indeed every tenth of a second counts.

 

[jon0844]

It's not normal service that is going to test the system out, but the means by which it will be further stretched to the limits to try and recover during disruption.

I wonder what Govia will plan for when things go tits up, and what the emergency timetable will be. Which trains will be axed first, and what stations will be skipped etc.

 

[Class377/5]

Is suggest that upwards of 90% of passengers on TL trains will be using at least one core station (incl London Bridge) in their journey, and short dwell times are crucial to the delivery of 24 tph through the core. Every second counts. Indeed every tenth of a second counts.

Indeed. Things like drop down tables have been looked at. Thameslink 2018 will be a slick operation day in, day out especially compared to today's peak seeing less trains than the 2018 off peak.

Of course most people have confused this every seconds count to be only for 24tph but its actually supports the max 30tph peak service for when things do go wrong.

 

[asylumxl]

Is suggest that upwards of 90% of passengers on TL trains will be using at least one core station (incl London Bridge) in their journey, and short dwell times are crucial to the delivery of 24 tph through the core. Every second counts. Indeed every tenth of a second counts.

Yes, they will be using one core station as their destination but very few people will be travelling between core stations, which is the point I was making. It's completely irrelevant to the majority of commuters that there will be 24tph through the core if their desired destination only receives 4tph.

Even on the current TL route there are roughly 50 miles of track on each side of it. A metro style design is not necessarily the best choice in this case. It's also worth pointing out that while people on this forum talk about the "short dwell times" needed for 24tph the dwell times are in fact roughly the same as they are now.

 

[fgwrich]

Though the 700s aren't planned to work in multiple unless one of them breaks, which is of course why they're all so long.

I know, I was just responding to ainsworth74's comments about their simplicity making them appear to look very long. If it where a 8 or 12 car coupled SWT Desiro you would have the livery of each end unit to break it up with. But with this livery being as bland and simple as it is there's nothing to break up it's lengthy appearance.

The one area I do wonder how the sound will be like will be in the driving coaches - Disk braking on one bogie, and treadbrakes on the other!

 

[Bigfoot]

The one area I do wonder how the sound will be like will be in the driving coaches - Disk braking on one bogie, and treadbrakes on the other!

As with new stock the braking will all be regen. Brakes as people know them on new stock only work from 5 or 6mph and below. Except for wsp, emergency etc.

 

[Chris125]

Yes, they will be using one core station as their destination but very few people will be travelling between core stations, which is the point I was making. It's completely irrelevant to the majority of commuters that there will be 24tph through the core if their desired destination only receives 4tph.

If 24tph isn't achieved through the core then other frequencies will be affected too, as will overall reliability - that is relevant to commuters.

Chris

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd forgotten about the 125mph passing speed on the ECML - good point - yeah that will definitely be a significant difference then. We'll see.

The thing about plug doors being slow is pretty moot - the plug doors on 465s actually close quicker than the sliding doors they retrofitted to the 315s when refurbishing them. Whether that's a reliable mechanism is up for debate, but they haven't elected to change it after 23 years in service so it can't be that bad.
By contrast, the insulation offered by the doors on 395s is admittedly excellent, but wow are they slow. Even I have to own up to double pressing the button on more than one occasion as I thought it wasn't opening. That's something we most definitely do not want on 700s.

Interestingly, I believe the 345s are spec'ed with plug doors? I would have thought dwell times were equally as important on crossrail, if not perhaps even slightly moreso. I hope they're not as slow as those fitted to 377/6, 379 and onwards, as they're pretty tedious to watch. For whatever reason they slowed them down after the 377/5...

As it stands right now, I think other people would probably agree that Thameslink reliability in the current franchise is pretty pathetic. I can totally understand why that's the case given the complexity of the route, but since it's only going to get more complex, I sincerely hope all the modifications taking place help matters. I'm fairly surprised when I visit City Thameslink and don't see a cancelled train somewhere on the board, or one that's at least 15 minutes late. Anything reliability-oriented with regard to the new franchise is good in my book.

 

[asylumxl]

I'd forgotten about the 125mph passing speed on the ECML - good point - yeah that will definitely be a significant difference then. We'll see.

On the Midland Main Line too now!

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, they will be using one core station as their destination but very few people will be travelling between core stations, which is the point I was making. It's completely irrelevant to the majority of commuters that there will be 24tph through the core if their desired destination only receives 4tph.

Even on the current TL route there are roughly 50 miles of track on each side of it. A metro style design is not necessarily the best choice in this case. It's also worth pointing out that while people on this forum talk about the "short dwell times" needed for 24tph the dwell times are in fact roughly the same as they are now.

Well I can tell you that on every morning peak train I use, roughly 3-400 people get on at St Pancras, and get off at City or Blackfriars, vice versa in the evening. Admittedly many of these will be off ECML trains that will in future will go through the core, but then in future many more trains will go to London Bridge, which is expected to take much custom off the northern line.

I can also tell you that the dwells required (45 sec wheel stop to wheel roll) are definitely shorter than those planned or (usually) achieved in the peak today. Also, today's peak timetable has recovery time in the core for most trains to take up the often extended dwells - this can't be done post 2018 when you are planning 150second headways.

 

[asylumxl]

Well I can tell you that on every morning peak train I use, roughly 3-400 people get on at St Pancras, and get off at City or Blackfriars, vice versa in the evening. Admittedly many of these will be off ECML trains that will in future will go through the core, but then in future many more trains will go to London Bridge, which is expected to take much custom off the northern line.

I can also tell you that the dwells required (45 sec wheel stop to wheel roll) are definitely shorter than those planned or (usually) achieved in the peak today. Also, today's peak timetable has recovery time in the core for most trains to take up the often extended dwells - this can't be done post 2018 when you are planning 150second headways.

On the same peak trains I use every morning peak, very few people alight at St Pancras and about 12-20 board on the carriage I am in. Over the length of an 8-12 carriage train that's admittedly quite a few but absolute chicken feed in comparison to the number of commuters from Bedford/Luton/St Albans heading south (not to mention the other direction). The vast majority alight at City Thameslink. The trains I usually use arrive around 8:40 in to City Thameslink.

I agree a lot of peak trains have padding but it's not uncommon for a train to come in and out within the time mentioned above. Depends how close to departure time it arrives.

I honestly think that plug doors are more than capable of the dwell times, but unfortunately it's not what the DfT specified. Like I said initially, I am just interested to know how noisy they will be.

 

[swt_passenger]

I honestly think that plug doors are more than capable of the dwell times, but unfortunately it's not what the DfT specified.

The ITT, train and infrastructure specifications DfT issued back in 2008 did not actually mention or demand any particular door type, all the specs are written in terms of outputs such as dwell times and throughput.

 

[asylumxl]

The ITT, train and infrastructure specifications DfT issued back in 2008 did not actually mention or demand any particular door type, all the specs are written in terms of outputs such as dwell times and throughput.

Well Siemens are supposedly offering the Desiro City with both options, so someone in the DfT at some point had to agree to sliding doors surely?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well Siemens are supposedly offering the Desiro City with both options, so someone in the DfT at some point had to agree to sliding doors surely?

DfT agreeing to Siemens proposal is not the same as DfT specifying sliding doors...

 

[asylumxl]

DfT agreeing to Siemens proposal is not the same as DfT specifying sliding doors...

Given that the DfT consider it a metro operation and focus on the core, would they offer anything else?

 

[joeykins82]

The DfT seem to have signed off on the use of sliding doors on IEP (if the concept images published so far are anything to go by) so no real surprise that they'd approve them for the 700s.

I'd imagine that more noise would come from the walk through gangways at 100mph than the sliding doors. Wait and see I suppose!

 

[asylumxl]

I'd imagine that more noise would come from the walk through gangways at 100mph than the sliding doors. Wait and see I suppose!

Which is what I originally said .

It seems they're well on their way. Anyone in the know think they may begin testing in the UK early?

 

[Chris125]

Interestingly, I believe the 345s are spec'ed with plug doors? I would have thought dwell times were equally as important on crossrail, if not perhaps even slightly moreso.

I've not seen plug doors mentioned anywhere, and if any line justified the reduced dwell time and better reliability of sliding doors it's Crossrail.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

I'd have thought they won't start testing them in the UK until the new Hornsey depot facilities have been finished?

 

[Class377/5]

I'd have thought they won't start testing them in the UK until the new Hornsey depot facilities have been finished?

Hornsey has nothing to do with initial testing. Three Bridges depot will be finished in July 2015 with the first 700/1 due the following month. All units will be commissioned at Three Bridges with Hornsey being used for GN commissioning as well as ATO test prior to service running.

Hornsey is completed in July 2016. GN public service is nearly a year later.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've not seen plug doors mentioned anywhere, and if any line justified the reduced dwell time and better reliability of sliding doors it's Crossrail.

Chris

Not exactly an authoritative source, but it's on the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345

Someone must have got that idea from somewhere!

 

[Chris125]

Not exactly an authoritative source, but it's on the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345

Alas it provides no reference for that, and Wiki pages for rolling stock are notoriously unreliable

 

[jopsuk]

Not exactly an authoritative source, but it's on the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345

Someone must have got that idea from somewhere!

on the Aventra page it says the opposite

 

[Goldfish62]

The DfT seem to have signed off on the use of sliding doors on IEP (if the concept images published so far are anything to go by) so no real surprise that they'd approve them for the 700s.

I understand that the IEP has sliding doors because the Japanese don't do plug doors, rather than it actually being specified.

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed, even their latest 200mph trains have sliding doors (though pressure sealed like the 395s).

 

[samuelmorris]

I naturally assumed that the 345s would have doors like those on the 378s - they seem fairly solid, and they open/close quickly. However, the concept art for the 345s does not suggest that, neither does the wiki page, but then that might just be referring to the concept art - Is there going to be a mock-up of a 345 built, since the Aventra is still a new design, or are they going to launch straight into production?

Sorry, this is a bit of a tangent now - I might move that to the 345 thread. Still, I think any comparisons drawn between these two classes (since they're effectively rivals) would be interesting.

 

[jopsuk]

the concept art on the 345 page on wikipedia shows plug doors, the concept art on the Aventra page shows sliding. Both are official Bombardier concept art pictures. So there is no conclusive evidence either way.

 

[southern442]

Given that the DfT consider it a metro operation

I think this is ridiculous. A roughly 100 mile line being treated like an LU route!? People would go mad if they did that to, say, the SWML!

 

[AM9]

I think this is ridiculous. A roughly 100 mile line being treated like an LU route!? People would go mad if they did that to, say, the SWML!

There is no comparison with the SWML. It is unlikely that many will travel from Reading to Shenfield or Abbey Wood as a single journey. The end to end journey time is less than 20 minutes than a Central Line trip from West Ruislip to Epping and that is on tube stock with longtitudonal seating and no toilets.
Just like the class 700s the trains are designed to move the maximum number of passengers from home county dormitory towns to their employment in central London on 100mph routes with a high frequency core section, stopping at every station. They might be new and shiny for a couple of years, but they are not luxury trains, (readers from the North should note).